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[Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have
custody of such child]

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snip
.

You have consistently maintained that *any* man
should
be
able
to
walk
away
from his children at *any* time with no legal
obligation
toward
those
children, Chris. As much as I disagree with the
system
currently
in
place,
I absolutely would not want it replaced with *your*
system.

But that's just it! My "system" is actually nothing
more
than
the
missing
part to THEIR system. It is THEM, not I, who have
determined
such
an
arrangement by their system. It simply follows.

No, it isn't, Chris. You just want it to be. It is as
wrong
as
what
is happening now. We need solutions--not more
selfishness
on
the
part of either gender.

Actually, TM, he does have a point. If mothers are the
only
ones
with
any authority after conception, then what follows is
that
mothers
should be the only ones forced to accept the results of
their
unilateral decision. Mothers can even legally abandon a
newborn
(age
varies by state) and walk away with no questions asked.
Certainly
she
has the choice over the birth or abortion as well as a
near
guarantee
of custody and the promise of a monthly paycheck for her
choice.
Either fathers deserve the same or similar rights as
women
or
neither
do.

I do not disagree with part of that. Fathers should have
the
same
ability to decide not to be parents as mothers have, and
the
same
newborn drop off rights. However, I draw the line at the
idea
that
a
man, because he is a man, should be able to walk out of a
10
year
marriage which produced 3 children with NO RESPONSIBILITY
WHATSOEVER
toward those children. Especially since Chris uses the
"sole
right
to
bring conception to birth" argument to negate a decade of
parenting.


I actually disagree with it all. Abortion, legal
abandonment
and
using
children as pawns in the physical control or mind games of
adults
is
atrocious behavior to me.
That said, as long as the system views fathers as
disposable
in
all
but
fiscal matters, he does have a point.
Responsibility should be matched by, and equal to, the
authority
over
the situation (choice).

But saying that a married man who decides to run away with
his
secretary
can abandon his family with impunity does *not* fix that
situation.
When
fathers start seeing themselves as disposable, and
convincing
other
fathers that they, too, are disposable, then we've lost.
There
is
not
fixing a situation when both sides agree that there is
nothing
to
fix.
It won't change the fact that fathers will have money
forcefully
taken
from them to support the children--it will just make it
that
much
easier,
because the fathers themselves will agree that they are not
necessary
as
parents.

I've typed, erased and retyped this repeatedly trying to
convey
my
thoughts.... I'll just say this:
A mother allows one child to cut the slices of cake for
themselves
and
a
sibling, then allows the other to choose their piece. There
is
a
great
probability that both will get an even-sized slice.
Chris pointed out that women are making the decisions on
whether
a
child
will be born then strapping the men with the responsibility,
which
in
the
cake scenario would be letting one brother slice the cake
and
also
decide
which slice they wanted. He just expounded the extension of
this
right
to
men, which exposes the problem of treating men and women
differently
because of their sex.

I don't disagree with that if we are talking about unmarried
couples--I
think it is outrageous that a woman can choose to bear a child
and
expect
the man to support her and the child. That absolutely needs
to
be
remedied.
But I am talking here about a MARRIED MAN who chose to have
children
with
his wife, who raised and cared for those children for years
and
years--then
suddenly decides he does not want to be a father any more and
wants
to
use
the **you chose to bring the children into the world, so it's
your
responsibility to take care of them*** argument. The fact
that
the
woman
could have chosen to abort 15 years previously **is no longer
in
play
at
that point.****

Well of course! Because after 15 years, the responsibility for
one's
sole
choice (at least for mothers) suddenly ...............
DISAPPEARS!
How
nice.

The two of them choosing to keep and raise those children is a
choice
that
both of them made. The mother cannot take a 15 year old to a
safe
haven
and
walk away with no questions asked, as she can when the child is
just
a
few
days old. Neither should the father be able to make that choice.
It
went
from *sole choice* to *their choice* when they chose to raise the
child
together.

What, exactly, became THEIR choice?

Raising the child together, Chris.

Nice topic change. We are discussing the choice to give birth;
remember?

Now we weren't. This is what I said

"But I am talking here about a MARRIED MAN who chose to have children
with his wife, who raised and cared for those children for years and
years--then
suddenly decides he does not want to be a father any more and wants to
use
the **you chose to bring the children into the world, so it's your
responsibility to take care of
them*** argument. The fact that the woman could have chosen to abort
15
years previously
**is no longer in play at that point.****

That is not a discussion about birth. It is a discussion about men
being
able to walk away from children at any time he chooses--even a decade
or
more later-- because he did not give birth to them.

You commented on the mother's freedom to choose abortion (which includes
the
choice to give birth) being long past thus no longer in play. I
responded
in
agreement stating that the responsibility for her choice vanishes. Not
sure
how or why, but somehow POOF, it's gone. And just what choice do you
think
I
was referring to?

Who knows, Chris. You like to twist things around to avoid the point.

You stated: " The fact that the woman
could have chosen to abort..." which implies the choice to give birth.

I responded: "... the responsibility for one's sole
choice (at least for mothers)..." concerning the choice that is "no longer
in play".

Since the choice of abortion is irrelevant to this forum, the only choice
left is the woman's choice to give birth. No twisting on MY part.

And
the point is: In no way is it right to say that, because a woman CAN
choose
to abort a child, a man will never have any responsibility toward that
child
because he CANNOT choose to abort.

But wait a minute, I thought the topic was about men walking away from
children, not her choice regarding abortion? Make up your mind.

How does a woman having the choice to
abort relieve a man of any responibility toward that child, Chris?

No one is responsible for a choice which they are incapable of making; a
concept I grasped before the training wheels were off my bike.




THEY made the choice and commitment to
do that. THEY made the choice and commitment to be parents. Just
because
the child did not grow in the father's womb does not make him any
less
of
a
parent than the mother!

Nor did I claim so.

But you have said that, because the man did not give birth, he should
be
entitled to walk away scot free any time he chooses to.

Correction: That is what the GOVERNMENT people say by inference.

And YOU choose to take it and run with it and say that no man should ever
have any responsibility toward a child.

Not even close. If a man chooses to accept such responsibility, more power
to him.