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Old October 28th 03, 04:53 AM
Kane
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Default Dennis was U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

"Dennis Hancock" wrote in message
news:W8anb.40826$Tr4.84191@attbi_s03...
"Kane" wrote in message
om...
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:41:06 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:

Thank you for interspercing your comments in proximity to my post. It
makes for much more readible and interesting posts to my mind.


"Kane" wrote in message
om...
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 22:42:01 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:


"Kane" wrote in message
It isn't dishonest of me to consider the link between abuse and
spanking nor is it dishonest of me to consider the state of the

world
and its societies as possibly being linked to the use of pain

and
humiliation in parenting.

One can find a 'link' to just about everything,
Kane wrote:
Yes, one can. I've noticed the spankers do, just as you will do

very
soon in this reply of yours.

No Kane, it's apparent that only YOU see direct links which do not

exist.

No, I am not the only person to see such links. Those doing research
in brain scans and behavioral observation research are my sources. As
well as my own long history of observation and treatment of abused
children.


Your knowledge of brain scans has already been proven faulty and you
continue with it?


Really? Please show me where my knowledge has proven faulty.

So far as I've seen the only challenges I've had were opinions. No response to
the body of knowledge.

You keep talking about your own long history of
observation and treatment of abused children, funny, I never thought that
was the duty of an Air Force professional.


It wasn't. I didn't work with children during my tour of duty. What makes you
think I made a profession out of it? I never made that claim. You seem to be
taking things I say out of context and assigning whatever meanings you fancy.

I think you make things up as
you go along.


No, but you obviously are doing so about me.


Amusing that you now can predict what others will say.


It's no mystery or special claim. There is a long history of responses
to the spanking issue by spankers in these negs. I daresay you could
have made the same claim about me. I tend to repost or reuse data and
information that is relevant.


Just as there is a long history of nonsense from people who claim that
spanking is abusive.


Really? With citation after citation of studies for many years, anecdotal
materials, their own observations. The only nonsense here is your ignorance.

You seem to know what you know and that is the end of the matter. You don't
debate anything, just make declarations. I've posted half a dozen citations or
so to various research sources.

What you have you posted to support your position except nonsense parrotted
for years by the ignorant?

They are too caught up in their own self righeousness
that they cannot comprehend the damage that they are creating.


A classic projection. If anyone is bothering to study the issue it is the
proponent of non-cp parenting methods. While you diddlywads keep relying on
history and "we always did it that way and we turn out okay...hyuk hyuk."

Talking in circles and contradicting oneself is not 'posting and resuing
data and information that is relevant', it's stretching to prove to yourself
that you are right, no matter what others might think.


Then you should spend so much of your posting doing that. Show me where I've
contradicted myself. I'll be happy to show you were you have, repeatedly.

Kane wrote:
Do you believe that pain received in childhood reduces the pain

given
by that child when she grows up?

I haven't seen a single person make that claim here, your kind of

stretching
a bit aren't you?


I have seen numerous persons make such a claim. You just fail to
recognize it. Many times the unwanted behavior a parent spanks for is
hitting and biting between children or hitting the adult.


Wrong, I've followed the thread from the beginning and nowhere can I find
anywhere that anyone has made such a claim.


You are not answering the question. That's a ploy as ancient as Mathusalah.
The question was,

Do you believe that pain received in childhood reduces the pain

given
by that child when she grows up?


I am not making a claim. I am asking a question.

And in fact that claim by you folks is implied in your aversive parenting. You
do hit your child and I presume you would do so for hitting other children. Am
I incorrect, or are you going to try and weasel out of answer THIS question as
well?

Your saying it here doesn't
make it so, it is only your interpretation, which has been stretched quite a
bit as it is, such as your continuing statements that you cannot 'teach'
mathematics or writing through pain, which again, no one has claimed..


I wasn't saying that other's made the claim. I was answering the claim made by
others that pain is a good means of teaching.

You fail on two counts.


My question though wasn't really that narrow in scope. I am, of
course, referring to the fact that many who were spanked do so to
their children, and tend, all too often, as was recently posted to
this ng, escalate to more pain by way of spanking.


People who were physically abused generally resort to physical abuse
themselves.


You are correct. Please define the dividing line between spanking and abuse.
We have lots of time so don't rush yourself.
And while you are at it please include how one tells which child will
experience abuse rather than "spanking discipline" at what point in the
abuse-spanking continuium.

It's a never ending cycle, yet you still refuse to
differentiate between abuse and spanking,


No, I DO differentiate. It's you and your cohort that fail to do that. I
consider any action that falls short of supporting the child learning and
being protected as abusive.

The pain of CP is NOT conducive to learning anything. If a child is about to
do an action or is doing an action I do not want them to it is my
responsibility to protect them first from any dangerous consequences, then it
is my responsibility to teach them at the level of development they are in at
the moment. If they are just crawling I'm not going to do much but physically
remove them from the site of the action and distract them.

If they are toddlers I am going to likely do both remove them and I am going
to divert to instruction as often as possible, most especially if they are
about to do something dangerous to themselves and others.

or show proof that those who spank
for disciplinary reasons or teaching their child correct behavior at a very
young age actually do 'escalate' the pain..


I have provided citations. These ngs are full of such citations. Google will
take you to citations. In other words you are shuckin' and jivin' like crazy
here.

But let's give you something to do besides babble..

Children whose parents use corporal punishment to control antisocial behavior
show more antisocial behavior themselves over a long period of time,
regardless of race and socioeconomic status, and regardless of whether the
mother provides cognitive stimulation and emotional support (Gunnoe & Mariner,
1997; Kazdin, 1987; Patterson, DeBaryshe, & Ramsey, 1989; Straus, Sugarman, &
Giles-Sims, 1997).

A consistent pattern of physical abuse exists that generally starts as
corporal punishment, and then gets out of control (Kadushin & Martin, 1981;
Straus & Yodanis, 1994).

Adults who were hit as children are more likely to be depressed or violent
themselves (Berkowitz, 1993; Strassberg, Dodge, Pettit, & Bates, 1994; Straus,
1994; Straus & Gelles, 1990; Straus & Kantor, 1992).

The more a child is hit, the more likely it is that the child, when an adult,
will hit his or her children, spouse, or friends (Julian & McKenry, 1993;
Straus, 1991; Straus, 1994; Straus & Gelles, 1990; Straus & Kantor, 1992;
Widom, 1989; Wolfe, 1987).

Corporal punishment increases the probability of children assaulting the
parent in retaliation, especially as they grow older (Brezina, 1998).

Corporal punishment sends a message to the child that violence is a viable
option for solving problems (Straus, Gelles, & Steinmetz, 1980; Straus,
Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997).

Corporal punishment is degrading, contributes to feelings of helplessness and
humiliation, robs a child of self-worth and self-respect, and can lead to
withdrawal or aggression (Sternberg et al., 1993; Straus, 1994).

Corporal punishment erodes trust between a parent and a child, and increases
the risk of child abuse; as a discipline measure, it simply does not decrease
children's aggressive or delinquent behaviors (Straus, 1994).

Children who get spanked regularly are more likely over time to cheat or lie,
be disobedient at school, bully others, and show less remorse for wrongdoing
(Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997).

Corporal punishment adversely affects children's cognitive development.
Children who are spanked perform poorly on school tasks compared to other
children (Straus & Mathur, 1995; Straus & Paschall, 1998).

and when you are finished with your critique of these studies you can start on
(never ask me for proof little boy):

http://hugse9.harvard.edu/gsedata/Re...vperson_id=335 will
give you a start with one of the more preeminant researchers in the brain-mind
cognitive learning area. His book with Dawson is worth the money. (Human
Behavior and the Developing Brain (with G. Dawson) (1994) )

I really have to thank you for taking this discussion between us to the level
you have. I thought you'd never get around to it.

It gives me a wonderful excuse to provide even MORE data and methods for child
rearing without pain.

Any interested folks looking for non-punitive and non-pain parenting methods
and support for same couldn't go wrong looking at this source:

http://www.cpirc.org/tips/braindev.htm

Quite a bibliography.

And also:

http://childparenting.miningco.com/l...ub2.htm?iam=mt

and;

http://childparenting.miningco.com/l...y/aa011599.htm



Pain received in childhood teaches a child at the
simplest most basic level to avoid certain situations BECAUSE they

can be
painful.


I agree. Natural consequences are extremely educational, but cause the
object of the pain is the object or action the child touchers or does.
Children get plenty of that, from the very first.

They watch and study with great intensity even the expression and the
body language of their primary parent, usually their mother. Mother's
who are observant notice very subtle responses from their child
according to how the mother presents to them.

It doesn't 'reduce' adulthood pain, it reinforces against stupid
behavior.


I agree. I doesn't reduce adutlhood pain. I would argue that it does
increase the likelihood of the pain parented child to find MORE pain
in adulthood. Some of it psychological and some behavioral.

In other words the spanked child tends to have reactions that interfer
with them getting what they need and want without a lot of pain
involved. Sometimes for themselves and sometimes for others.


Where does that inference come in?


You don't believe then that we are a product of our experiences?

My observations have been that the non
spanked child has very little awareness of the consequences of his/her
actions and becomes quite manipulative, and that becomes quite problematic
as they grow older.


Do you mean "non-spanked" completely or the sometimes spanked and randomly
spanked? I have seen such behavior commonly in that population. The completely
nonspanked child is usually skilled at negotiating, and fairly at that.

It's a common part of the life-skills set of non-punitive raised children.


And your second point: "it reinforces against stupid
behavior" something of a puzzle.

I've done a great deal of animal training, and some of my most
interesting work was undoing the bad training of others. I did a great
deal of it.

Animals do not have the reasoning ability that humans do. By 'stupid'
behavior, in the very young, it's behavior that causes pain to them.
EXACTLY as many animals react by avoiding that situation. As a child grows
older, he learns that there are consequences to his actions.


That is inevitable with or without a pain parenting adult present. It isn't
like a child is placed in cottonwool by non pain parenting children. I think
that such children actually have a higher incidence of interacting with the
enviroment consequencially....their parents tend NOT to do a lot of stopping
of behaviors with threats of pain or pain and let the child have the
experience as long as it isn't painful. I see a lot of spanking for behaviors
that are simply annoying to the parent or "because I said so."

Something
many of your thinking cannot comprehend because you have taken away all the
consequences.


Well, it is impossible to do that. The real world delivers more than enough
consequences to the child doing her ordinary exploring. And "many of your
thinking" are quite comfortable with natural consequences being educational
for a child.

Many of YOUR thinking seem to miss that and assume things about nonCP using
families that simply aren't true. It appears to be no more than a defensive
reaction of folks of YOUR thinking rather than a well thought out rebuttal.

And incident that comes readily to mind was a young polo mare trucked
in for training at a large stable I managed. I'd say she was probably
a 3 year old. Had been range bred and belonged originally to one of
the Rockerfellers. I watched the "trainer" work with her. He was a
quick hand with the polo whip. Ever see one?

It's about three feet long, leather covered with a nylon core, very
springy and stiff. If you took the leather off you could cut a horse
with it...and even with leather it leaves a terrible welt. Very
painful.

She managed to survive all his "training" pretty well...after all
horses if well bred tend to have temperments to cope with and tolerate
man. She was a Thorougbred.

It came time to ship her out to the new owner for her introduction to
the game in scrimmages and practices. The "trainer" was putting her in
the truck, up a short ramp at a kind of steep angle, but one she could
make easily.

She fought going into the truck, a flatbed with high stake sides. He
would get her to the ramp (he was mounted on her) and she would balk
just at the first step, the touch of the wooden ramp. He'd whip her,
hard with that polo whip, and she would immediately start running
backward pretty fast away from the ramp...a very dangerous thing for a
horse to do, what with bystanders, etc.

I was known for teaching horses to trailer and truck very quickly,
usually in 10 or 15 minutes with the lead rope just thrown over their
back. I have a very light touch with animals and children. I just kind
of walk them where they need to be and oddly my gentle approach seems
to work every time...with abused horses or abused children.

And they shortly walk alone where I want them to go, no lead rope at
all.

The "trainer" thought he had one even I couldn't train...and though he
had watched me do it many times...he took a chance this little mare
was so bad I couldn't work with her.

He didn't know that he had trained her for me of course.

I took his whip, mounted up, rode the mare to the ramp, she balked, I
reined her in a quick spin so she was facing away from the truck and
just touched her rump with the polo whip...not hitting.....where he
had been whipping her, and she of course did as trained...she ran
backwards....right up into the truck. I dismounted, tossed him his
whip, pulled off the saddle and bridle and walked down the ramp.

All one has to do to NOT use pain is the think. Is that so very hard?


And now let's put that same comparison to use in the REAL world of humans.
It has only been in recent history where 'spanking' or any type of corporal
punsihment has been looked down upon. YOU want to blame the condition of
society upon the 'spankers' of the past, but if you take note, we've
actually come to the point where the lack of spanking has been much more
prevalent over the past 30 years or so than at any time in past history.


You failed again. There isn't that much lack of spanking. And areas that have
reduced spanking are enjoying an improvement in child behaviors of all kinds.
Schools change from spanking to non-spanking are a good example.

And yes, I think child rearing methods MUST be considered when one judges a
society's moral models. And were spanking is more prevalent there is more
violence all and all. Check into child rearing methods in some of the worlds
most violent societies.

If they aren't physically punishing they have a sophisticated psychologically
abusive parenting method.

In ancient times, whipping, and caning were quite prevalent.. Now, for the
most part in most societies, they are considered barbaric. When I went to
public schools, one would expect to be punished by a swat with a wooden
paddle on the rear end if you misbehaved. Take a good hard long look at the
condition of the public schools since corporal punishment has been banned.


It is currently the safest place for children. The rate of injuries is higher
in families than in schools. I went to those paddling schools of old and I can
tell you that crime and deliquency were common. And I wasn't an inner city kid
either...but that is yet another point to ponder.

The only reason it wasn't noted as much at the time as prosecution of juvenile
crime was much less than today. I did things myself that would and should have
had law enforcement on my tail. Things we laughed but that could and sometimes
did escalate into serious offenses and injury to others. I saw a lot of
behavior that strongly suggested kids acting out as they had been taught to
act out by punishing parents.

Only a fool could refuse to see the obvious.


Only a fool could refuse to look outside their own immediate experience, and
also miss the truth in that experience. I can't guess where you went to school
that was so nicey nice, but I went to both urban rural schools and I saw
plenty of juvenile crime. And plenty of paddling didn't reduce it one bit.

That we have created a
generation which has absolutely no respect for authority and no fear of
retribution.


Baloney. Check out juvenile crime stats. They are low and have remained low
for the last few years. DOJ has a nice page for you to study. Even teen
pregnancies are down.

There are no consequences.


Really?

I see kids having consequences all the time. You are really saying they aren't
in pain, aren't you....and you are still wrong.

Try your approach with teenagers and
they'll tell you to go to hell just as quickly as not.


The kids that have been brought up by brute parenting methods with lots of
pain sure will. Teens brought up with support and teaching...true
teaching...don't do any such thing. I confront teens all the time just because
I like to talk with them and see what's up. My favorite is to get on public
transport for a ride...not really going anywhere sometimes, and look for the
punkiest looking kids possible and chat them up.

I find they aren't a bit like the media image they are dressed like. We
dressed unlike our parents when I was a kid too and our parents made all kinds
of assumptions about us that weren't really true of the majority. Same old
stuff is going on.

You ever run across that public notice put out in ancient Greece or Rome about
how the young were running rampant etc etc. You would have thought is was a
current day rant until you got to the bottom of the text and saw the date and
location.

For why not, all it
will do is get them out of school for a day. No punishment, no discipline.


When I worked with emotionally disturbed youth we kept them in public school
easily. If they got in trouble and were sent home to the residential facility
we had a nice little "schoolroom" set up in the dining room. It wasn't
punishing in any way...just a continuation of the school they were missing.

I taught the local junior high folks how to do away with suspensions and such
and put in a working program that actually taught kids. It was so popular that
I got called by the elementary school to work with their teachers in special
ed to do something similar. Hey, we taught each other...and the most difficult
kids were easily dealt with effectively without any punishment at all...but
there were "consequences."

We've listened to the psychobabble that we must never say anything negative
to a child as it might hurt their psyche..


We have? I've never listened to it. I tell kids negative things all the time
as a consequence of their unwanted behavior. It's not rocket science. I do it
in such a way that they aren't punished by my statements and they are invited
to problem solve with me to fix the situation. They respond really well, and
learn, when they aren't humiliated and upset and reactive emotionally. Funny
how that works.

but what we have created is a
generation of children who are emotional cripples who cannot deal with even
the slightest bit of criticism without going off on tantrums.


Can't say who you are hanging around with but that is not the least like my
experience. I see children that are punished liberally through childhood that
are emotional cripples. I see children with strong psychological foundations
from being parented with love, gentleness and support...with out deliberate
pain applied by their parents.

While
positive reinforcement is always preferable, one also has to learn to deal
with reality and that there are negatives which arise.


Why would you continue to assume, considering I've told you better a number of
times, that parents who do not punish fail to allow their children to
experience negatives? Negatives do not have to be delivered by
parents....though it actually is more healthy to do so on the interpersonal
issues...like if my child curses at me (never had it happen) I'm certainly not
going to run over and give them a hug. I'm going to tell them it hurt with my
voice and my facial expression and my body language. Congruence is most
important and insures that my child experiences a wide range of
effects..consequences...for their behaviors.

Those who are denied
that, are emotionally crippled for life.


I doubt that you can find any child that is denied the experience of negatives
in their lives. I do see children with many temperments where some handle the
negatives well, and some do not..but spanking or not does not change those
differences in constitution of the child. In fact for the child that doesn't
handle negatives very well it's pretty much assured they will do a poorer job
if they are pain parented.

Do you honestly believe that the Columbine kids were the only children in
history who were outcast by their classmates,


I didn't mention they were outcast. I don't actually consider that the base or
primary cause of their going off like they did. There could be many factors,
and I suspect they were adequately pain parented. Given the prevalence of pain
parenting in our society I'd say the odds were heavy that they were, and
unlikely they were parented as I've suggested here.

If you have anything other than idle speculation about their parenting
experience you'll post it for us I presume.

or that the violence in school
is a result of 'spanking' by parents 50 or 60 years ago, when conditions
were much better.


That is a dream. A careful assessment of old news media will show you that
there were problems back then too. And considering the old men that were
raised then and are now in power I don't think I'd be stretching much to
suggest the we look closely at the possiblilty of some spanking causal factors
in the violence in the world today...including that which we, as Americans,
perpetrate.

You still don't get it do you.


Sure I do. I get it that you are starting to babble and your arguments are
empty. Nothing new in that.

You are completely blinded to reality by
living in a world of 'studies' and 'observations' of such limited structure
that you don't realize the damage you and those who think like you have
truly done.


On the contrary.

If you are one of those that have decided that academic research isn't going
to effect your opinion, then you belong to a large crowd of losers. Enjoy.

I do not argue passionately for spanking,


Sure you do. You are doing so now. And most of your argument is emotion based,
as in "passionate."

only to combat the nonsense spoon
fed us by those 'professionals',


Do you have a witch doctor look after your health needs? Or so you prefer
someone with opinions about health? Personally I like, when I have a health
concern, to ask a trained professional to attend me.

many of whom have never had children,


What an odd claim. Who do you know that gives professional advice, does child
development research, or in other ways are professionally involved that do not
have children?

And how does not having children disqualify them? I let a doctor set my broken
leg back in 1966 who had never had so much as a broken bone himself. Many
people routinely send their children off to school to be taught by unmarried
people and people without children of their own.

I tend ot look at quality and credentials in results produced. Do you think
Catholics should not take advice about their marriage and child rearing
because they haven't experienced those things?

which
has led us down the path of ruin, and damaged the emotional health of
children forever.


No, you certainly "do not argue passionately for spanking."

As an Air Force professional, you certainly appear to know little or nothing
about the importance of discipline,


On the contrary. I know the importance of not only knowing how to follow
orders, but more, how to command one's self. When I taught E&E I taught that
very skill. Self discipline under extremely trying conditions.

or how badly your logic has degraded it
in the real world, not only in the armed forces.


I wonder how I managed to raise two, and my wife her two by the same methods,
children that were and are very successful and very much self determined and
honest. They should be in jail according to you.

I also wonder how I managed to turn around the hundreds of teens I worked with
and help them become responsible citizens without punishing them?

Continue to make your wild claims and believe that you are doing good.


Given the state of the world and the preponderance of folks like you raising
children I'd have to say you are the one making the wild claims. But that's
nothing new for spanking afficianados. They have been doing it for a very long
time. And things haven't gotten better. Well, except where spanking is being
curtailed.

Most
parents realize that people like you are the reasons for many of today's
problems


Ah, the "people like you" claim. People like you make people like you claims
all the time and cannot back it up in any fashion except in their dreams. I've
had to pull far too many children out of the misery created by pain parenting
not to be acutely aware of the "people like you" claims.

and deal with their children on a one to one basis depending upon
their needs.


You seem to be suggesting that I am the one with a one trick solution to
parenting, when in fact it's the punishing parents that so often have few if
any skills beyond pain or the threat of pain.

For one, I will let you wallow in your self righeousness and drop from this
discussion.


Crawfish.

You have shown yourself to be completely closed minded.. as you
have tried to portray myself and others who have debated you.


You aren't closed minded then? You are willing to entertain the idea that
children might need the kind of parenting I describe?

I used to believe your kind of parenting was the right kind. I was so "closed
minded" I changed my mind based on evidence and observation. Let's see you try
my way for awhile.

However, IF you truly have been a lurker here, you will note that I have on
several occassions reversed my opinion when presented with honest fact and
reasoning for how others believe or perceive things.


I must have missed that. I don't follow your posting career. Are you
suggesting that if I could just present you with "honest fact and reasoning
for how others believe or perceive things" you'd be open to changing your
mind?

I find the difficult to believe. I think you have more than a small interest
in maintaining your particular reality and wouldn't give it up no matter how
much data or honest fact and reasoning I might present.

But I will not buy
into talking in circles and contradictions,


Then why do you do so very much of it instead of offering something cogent?

I've asked you to point out those times I've done either when you've made that
claim before. You haven't responded except to repeat the claim. That isn't
very good for your credibility. And it talking in circles and contradictions.

something which is more harmful
to society than taking charge of the upbringing of ones children to be well
rounded and emotionally stable in dealing with the world around us.


Odd, all the children I've worked with and raised are extremely well rounded.

And please explain how pain parenting is determined to accomplish that well
rounding and emotional stablility...given the state of the world and the
behaviors of adults who were pain parented as children.

Kane