'Kate wrote in message ...
On 02 Dec 2003 22:07:02 GMT, oaway (Joelle)
I think Paul has a point about how a lot of women have higher
standards about housekeeping than men. So they don't give men credit
for
what
they do, or they complain and criticize what they do and so they don't
do
it.

So rather than talk about what is going on, they withdraw help to teach
the little woman a lesson?

Well that really puts it back on men to look at it that way. I doubt
they are
thinking about "teaching her a lesson" - my guess is, they don't like
being
criticized so they don't do it. Kids are like that. People are like
that.
Yea, talking about it helps. I'm just offering the counter to the
stereotype
that "men never help around the house" with the other side that when they
do,
it's often not good enough.

I think there's a power thing going on, women still want to be "in
charge" of
the housework and want to set the standards. But if it really is a
shared
responsiblity, then you have to agree on the standards as well.

I agree. Women do need to give up control to share control of the
housework, children, etc....

In the same way that men are needed to assume a more equitable level of
work in the home, women need to adjust the way that we think about that
work and learn to share responsibility. Sharing responsibility does
mean that women will have to stop taking total responsibility, give up
control, and learn to effectively communicate needs - to ask and to be
heard. It's not easy to change tradition. Mothers/women gain a measure
of self-esteem from their ability to parent well, to keep a clean home,
to cook and perform other domestic chores well. Some men aren't
thrilled with the idea of having more responsibility in the home. It
isn't what they've learned "fatherhood" is. A request by the wife could
easily be addressed as "she's nagging." Our roles as parents in a
two-earner family has changed so fast and we don't have the tools
(communication skills, models of functional families, learned roles and
scripts) to keep up with that change. It is no wonder the divorce rate
has increased. We know the "ideal" but it's awfully hard to find it for
ourselves because we're building a brand new framework for the idea of
"family." Adjustments like that require constant tweaking and both
people in the marriage need to be willing to change how they think of
their roles.

'Kate


Very good point, it is considered a mark of a 'good woman' to maintain a
clean home. Tradition has defined roles. Question. Do you think that both
genders should have the same roles? There are some physical differences such
as the male inability to breast feed. Should this mean that we take on
different roles and if so what should they be, should it affect housework,
income generation roles or only child rearing roles. Should mothers be
closer to children and fathers more or less superfluous? Not so long ago a
dad would have very little to do with child rearing, would they have been
missed by the child? Should they be missed? What would you personally
consider makes a 'good man' all political considerations aside? Is that what
you would have bred with at breeding time or would traditional values have
ruled your choice? (not to put too fne a point on it)

Andrew

(once you have dealt with the above lets move on to the questions of the
economy and global warming)