On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 01:14:26 -0400, "angryandsad"
wrote:

Kane wrote:
Angry and sad---wrote:

Subject: What if a foster parent is a bad parent?
From: "angryandsad"
Date: 9/5/2004 3:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:
boutsupport.com


[argument with someone else deleted - I didn't understand most of the
jargon in the first response, anyway.)
This person has two biological children and two foster children
living
with him. I've ignored a lot of lapses - drug use by the foster
parent
with the kids, lack of supervision, truancy being allowed if not
encouraged and more. I had to stop turning my head Thursday when
the
older foster child told me that the biological son had sexually
assaulted
a visiting child and the foster son had sexually assaulted the
biological
daughter. She said her foster father was aware of the assaults and
was
indifferent. I called the police after talking with her a while to
make
sure she was telling the truth.

If you focus on the issue of foster parents you immediately create
a
conflicted atmosphere. While you can SAY it is a foster placement
where this is happening, focus on the interests of the child, and
report this as suspected abuse and or neglect.

I only posted here because I was looking for somewhere to ask for
advice
and I took a chance. I sure didn't mean to insult any one who
fosters;
you're better people than I am. I thought that people here would be
interested in helping the children.

Oh trust me on this. Insulting a foster would be a major
accomplishment. They are so accustomed to insults, and even lies about
them, they have a very thick skin and a forgiving nature, even taking
the kids back that lie by virtue of being parent coached to do so.

Rather loving folks, most foster parents. Real love.

And I am grateful for your advice.

Pay closer attention to that from foster parents (I'm not one, never
have been, known a lot of them though and coached a few that were
relatives and less that were not).

It's basically a failure to supervise issue as far as "foster"
issues
go, but it is a sex abuse case for the children involved. Keep your
facts sorted out, report only what you observe, not what you
speculate. It's much more powerful in the investigation phase, and
even more if it goes to criminal trial.

I called the police, as I mentioned, not the local child welfare
agency
because it was the sexual assault that immediately concerned me. As
I
said, I had ignored many things, all of which I witnessed, regarding
the
lack of parenting by the foster father. I assumed the kids were
someplace
where someone cared about them and thus better off, if nothing else.

"Lack of parenting" is by itself to vague to be of use in a report.
You'll be asked specifics. Be prepared to answer. The questions will
be about food, shelter, health matters, school, supervision.

I was very careful only to tell the police and the others who
followed up
only about the sexual assaults. I mentioned nothing else. It was
only
after I realized that the foster father and new foster mother were
ignoring the new guidelines and that the children were still at risk
that
I posted here. (I've been asking everyone I know for advice, too, I
just
hoped for some from someone with actual experience with the system.)

Same for the civil aspects, likely to impact the foster parents.
They
will most likely lose their certification right off, and their own
children will also likely to be removed during the investigation
for
their safety, and preservations of evidence.

That's what I was talking about - they removed both the foster and
biological daughters, but they're back in the home as much as they
were
before the police and child welfare agency representatives came out
on
Thursday.

That would be, unless charges are unfounded for some reason, not
acceptable. The agency should be informed immediately. And if no
action is taken, the police. If this is a founded sex abuse case the
police have a record most likely.

I'm not sure how the father was certified in the first place. The
guidelines for my state were clearly not followed. I suspect that an
exception was made for the first foster child, the daughter, because
no
one else would take her on.

That's possible. Why don't you foster? Why won't you?

And what was it about the foster father that makes you think he wasn't
qualified in the first place?

The foster son's placement is more confusing.
He had twice in the last month been arrested at the foster father's home
for running away from a juvenile detention center. After the second
arrest, the foster father became his foster father rather than being
charged for harboring a fugitive. Again, the exception may have been
made
to try to save the boy.

That is a common way for older, and even a few younger children, to
come into state custody and foster care. In my state it's called,
"special certs.' Just means it's for a specific child and if the
person isn't already a foster, for only that child.

Teens bring friends home now and then in trouble with family and ask
mom and dad to shelter them. That would be parental interference so I
do NOT recommend it. I recommend calling CPS if that happens to you.

Some here will try to con you and tell you they are being
forcefully
taken into custody, as though that is a BAD thing, when it's in
fact
the only thing that IS safe children in such a situation.

I would agree, if the girls were safer.

Yep. According to some they were forcefully taken into state custody
with horrible consequences to the child, and cruelty as "child abuse."
You are among the logically dysfunctional in some instances here.

Unethical too.

One reason I turned a blind eye to some of the less savory aspects of
the
homelife there is that it was so immensely better for the kids there
than
in their original homes.

The truth is that I too have a beef on such matters. Much of what USED
to be considered abusive in the old days was nothing more than
lifestyle issues....not proven abusive at all. Like five kids to a
bed, or a dirty house and yard. Kids are taken for those things any
more...though they will be noted along with the more serious reasons
the kids ARE taken, because the investigation requires that all
factors that COULD be of effect be listed.

Both of the foster children had mothers who were
addicts and absent fathers.

Gee, never heard of that before.

Both of them have been scarred by their
experience and both have a lot of problems. This is the first time
in my
life I have felt any pity for a sexual predator.

There's probably more than enough sexual abuse of them in their past
to account for their development going haywire on the psycho sexual
component.

Kids that are ****ed by family members and or momma's boyfriend, or
are rented out in trade for dope, or passed around as party favors at
a snort party tend to be a bit confused as to normal sexual behaviors.

I'm not exaggerating either. That's mild compared to some of the
things that DO happen that are too gross to write about here.

The local child welfare agency removed the foster son from the home
in
handcuffs. The biological son was allowed to stay in the home, and
the
two girls were placed in the home of the foster father's
girlfriend.
(The
foster father's girlfriend is the mother of the other victim.) The
two
girls told me they were staying there for a few months, but were
allowed
to come home if the son was not there.

Since none of this has gone to court, don't make assumptions. The
bio
son may well be charged if this is reported properly, as it should
be.
He is, if allegations are true, a dangerous offender. The parent's
may
or may not be complicite, but they surely are, if the boy sexually
assualted othersm they knew it, they are, if the statutes and
policy
cover it, in some deep fertilizer on a number of counts.

I don't know the details of the follow up. The foster father is not
speaking to me, so my information comes from the girls. I have not
asked
them any questions - this is what they have volunteered. That
they're
still visiting me tells me that they're glad I reported it.

How are you protecting yourself in these encounters with the girls?
One of the favorite tricks of perps is to claim that others did the
dirty deeds, and to work on the children to confuse them into
agreeing..or threaten them and family with harm if they don't...or the
lowest of the low threaten to kill their pets.

And being female won't protect you from allegations. Parental
interference would be one if the state thinks you are harboring those
children against the placement they are in.

Here's my problem, and I hope someone can help me. The girlfriend
did not
report the assault to any authority when her daughter told her
about
it.

THAT is the problem. People do NOT report when they should, and in
this ng that is ENCOURAGED by asking for measures that frighten
people
away from reporting.

I'm not sure why she didn't report it, other than the fact that the
boy
who assaulted her daughter is her boyfriend's son and like a son to
her.

That kind of confusion is rampant. There are those here that foster
confusion about what is or isn't sexual abuse. They seem to want it to
be violent rape for it to be classified as sexual abuse.

I can't understand that reasoning, nor can I understand why she
didn't
take her daughter to the hospital.

She may well have been afraid of being implicated in the acts. Or SHE
WAS IMPLICATED, and afraid.

I really can't understand why this lapse was rewarded with the gift
of two
more girls.

If the state doesn't know what you do?

She works nights, so three girls, aged 16, 14, and 12 are alone
five
nights a week. The younger two are the victims. The father, who
was
furious with me for reporting the abuse, tried to get the firls to
recant.

This is getting a bit complex. The father is not the boyfriend, I
take
it, the foster parent?

No, he is. There's only two adults involved here. Mr. A., my
neighbor,
is the biolgical father of B, a boy, and C, a girl. He is the foster
father of D, a girl, and E, a boy. Ms. F, his girlfriend, is the
mother
of G, a girl. The allegation is that B assaulted G and E assaulted
C.

Got it. I never quite get used to these soap operas, but I don't have
the practice CPS caseworkers get every day all day long. I need a
diagram. 0;-

I watched the son and daughter leave together last night at 11 pm
when I
was coming home. Clearly, both adults are ignoring the
restrictions.

We have a foster parent dad, and a foster parent mother, and a
foster
parent dad's girlfriend. Do I have this correct?

Which adults are you referring to? and Which son and daughter? The
perp and the victim?

I hope I cleared it up. It is ridiculously complicated.

But common. Add in the relatives that may be invested in the childre,
g'parents, aunts, uncles, etc and then you got "complicated."

I used to help relatives a lot in such situations.

C says she is not allowed at her dad's house if B is home. This is
being
ignored.

Sloppy casework if that is the criteria, but it may be a judges
decision. But then, he IS her father and he has HIS rights, no doubt
spoken for loudly in court by his attorney.

He has broken the agreement. The court should be notified. Notifying
the worker would be the correct channel to follow, but if that fails
then a letter to the judge might be useful.

I would think that B is not officially allowed to go to Ms. F's
house, since his victim lives there. C told me today that she and B
were
together last night because her dad told B to walk her home. She
said G
ran and hid when B came in. I didn't know what to tell the child.
She
was upset because G was so frightened, but she is only 12 and can't
be
expected to walk around at night alone. I guess her dad couldn't
bring
himself to do the escorting. I don't know why Ms. F allowed him to
come
in - she could have sent him home.

Aww..this isn't foster care. This is not what fostering is about.

The local child welfare agency seems to be playing fast and loose
with the
rules as well.

Could be, and could not be.

I'm going by the guidelines they publish and my personal knowledge of
the
situation right up until I called the police.

Sounds reasonable and prudent.

The family lives in a three bedroom house. The father has
one bedroom, the biological son has one, and the two girls and the
foster
son shared the third bedroom. The other victim slept there five
nights a
week before the assaults - who knows where they put her. The
family
does
not have sufficient income to care for all these children.
Utilities have
been shut off and the children are often hungry.

No. Foster parents routinely with this many kids are on easy street
and shopping for a yacht...according to the yahoos on this ng.

As I said, I complained about none of this because I thought the
children
were loved. One reason I feel so guilty here is that I wrote a
letter of
recommendation for Mr. A when he was trying to gain custody of D.
The
guideline say that foster parents must have sufficient income to
support
their own family. The only income the family had last winter was the
stipend for D. Mr. A is seasonally employed. I was actually happy
for
them - D got a home and A, B and C got to eat.

Well if he could fool you, someone that sees him all the time, it
doesn't come as any surprise that he fooled CPS. They wouldn't see him
more than once a week, if that.

These people are my neighbors. The only reason we have more money
than
they do is that we are both employed indoors and thus year-round, and
we
don't have children. I am not criticizing their poverty.

Didn't think you were. I was teasing about the yacht.

Are you sure these are children placed by the state, or a gathering
of
children from friends and family?

I'm not sure of the distinction. Mr. A did not sign up to be a
foster
parent for any child; he was approved for D when she ran away from
her
last placement.

Ah, the old special certs route. Should have guessed. That's a common
way, but in many states there is considerable reluctance to place MORE
children with a SC family. They aren't even trained at the point of
placement, and must quickly be gotten into classes and background
checks run, along with a quick walkthough to do a home safety check.

D is Ms. F's biological grand-niece. Mr. A has known her
all of her life. Ms. F was not willing to take her in at the time.
I explained how he gained custody of E above. So, the state placed
them
there, but Mr. A began the process.

Can anyone give me advice? I don't want any of these kids to
suffer
any
more.

The advice is simple. Follow the law. Report this, but get the
people
and relationships sorted out and report only what you KNOW, not
what
you speculate. "Speculation" very quickly can morph into sounding
like
a false allegation call to those that staff the child abuse
hotlines.

I did a better job explaing the relationships to the authorities than
I
did here. The child welfare agency was familiar with the names and
relationships. I only reported what D told me she heard from C and G
directly. I did not mention the rumor she said was circulating that
both
boys had been involved in a gang rape, and I sure didn't mention
drugs or
anything peripheral like that.

Oh dear! If someone knows what you have heard, they need to report it.

I also reported that Mr. A had responded to the news that I had
called the
police by telling me that he would see to it that the girls changed
their
stories. He said that telling the truth, and I am quoting him here,
would
break up his family. I liked the guy right up until I realized he
would
sacrifice the girls for the boys.

Yep. Sounds about right. And demonstrates what people will do to avoid
trouble. Especially when they bear responsibility.

It might be difficult to get the girls to change their story though,
but some here would tell you they are probably lying teens taking
advantage of caregivers.etc.

Let the experts make the calls on what took place or is most likely
to
have.
If they already know about this family and the those things you say
they do, as the foster boy being arrested, and you don't think CPS
will respond, you need to call 911 and ask for police dispatch,
non-emergency in most areas, and ask to report a suspected sexual
abuse.

I don't think further assaults have taken place. I worry about what
will
happen the first night Ms. G has to go to work.

Not much you can do about that. Other than look for what IS a fact and
report ONLY that.

There is more than one way to get CPS to take notice when they have
been conned, which apparently they have, given the mother didn't
report the sexual abuse.

That's what I am interested in. What are these ways?

Ask the children to make the call, for one. Look at their ages. They
could do it. Or use their statements to you to call. All you have to
report, and all you should, is what they say to you.

By the way, do you have some official knowledge the bio son
sexually
assaulted? That's a serious charge with serious consequences so if
you
report it report HOW you know this. .

I did. I even had a friend who is a social worker in another state
speak
to D before I called the police.

Sounds like you are on track.

Or again, you might sound like a vindictive neighbor who doesn't
like
their dog crapping in your yard.

That's actually funny. I'm the only one on the block who doesn't
complain
about their dog. What I failed to convey was that these people were
my
friends until Thursday. The children came over to my house for
snacks,
when they fought with their siblings or father, when they wanted help
with
their homework, when they wanted to watch tv and their power was off,
or
to show me things they'd made. The father and I talked daily. We
did
favors for each other. My friendship does not extend to covering up
sexual
assaults, though.

Oh, "the nosy neighbor that interfers in other families," eh?

0;-

You are on the right track. Don't be deterred. Whose safety is the
most important here? Let the experts sort out the facts as to what
happened. All you can report is what happened that YOU witnessed, what
was said to you. Well, if you wish to be believed.

Avoid the hyperbolic rantings style of some of our more lurid and
mindless posters in these ngs. Like accusing CPS of playing fast
and
loose when all you have is the appearance of that without
substantiation that that is there intent in this case. There may be
much they do not know...given the probablity related to your report
that a sexual assualt is being withheld from them.

It's not being withheld from them. After the police came, B's
probation
officer called me. Then D's case worker. Then E's probation
officer.
Then E's case worker. They removed C and D, remember? The child
welfare
agency, the private agency that supervises D's placement, and
juvenile
probation were all at the home Thursday night.

I think the child welfare agency was deliberately misled by Mr. A and
Ms.
F. I think they agreed to conditions they had no intention of
keeping. I
doubt that Ms. F mentioned her work schedule.

I blame the agency for not asking. I blame the agency for not asking
why
she didn't report the assault.

You don't know they haven't. Sex abuse cases, like other cases, tend
to shut down OUTFLOW of information, while inflow is collected. Makes
sense, no?

You can't preserve evidence, testamony or otherwise, very well if
everyone is blabbing to everyone else about the progress of the case.

In fact silence from CPS at this time would suggest something IS up
and your reporting has started the ball rolling.

And it sounds like more than one person is trying to avoid CPS
investigation.

I'm not sure what you mean.

The foster parents.

Of course, according to some here CPS wouldn't report if they did
find
a sexual or other kind of abuse going on, and they claim that
foster's
abuse children at a rate computed as 8 times more likley than the
bio
parent population.

Good lord. I guess that sort of thing goes on in any discussion
group, no
matter how benign the subject matter. There's a reason it makes
headlines
when a foster family abuses their foster children; it's rare.

Nothing quite like logic, is there now?

Yes it is rare, but so is abuse by bio family. Both get a lot of news
coverage, with the foster's being more exposed because they don't
enjoy the confidentiality that parents who are accused do. And they
are more often caught simply because of the relationship to CPS and
all the people that watch them...including the bio parents of the
children in their care, who have every reason to even make up things.

I want to make it clear that I think the foster father in this case
is
guilty of negligence, but not of any active abuse.

You sound concerned that some may happen though. He would be a party
to it if it rose to the level of a criminal charge....if what you
written here is accurate. He KNOWs the risks and allows it to happen.
The foster mother is in every deeper doodoo.

Don't expect huge amounts of rational support here, except for a
very
very few. Try any of the foster parents, though. They know what's
up
with such things.

That's what I was hoping for. I truly didn't expect any
anti-fostering
contingent.

They are much smaller than in the past, but all the more strident and
lyling, for all of that.

The only people I thought were opposed to foster families
were people who had their own children removed from their custody for
good
cause.

That creates a vacume for folks with poor thinking skills, weak egos,
and crackpot social agendas to use those families any old which way.
It's only a very small contingent here that support foster, and helps
those few families that are innocent of abuse and falsely accused, or
working hard to rehab.

It's mostly muddied up with BS claims about CPS and fosters, and the
rebuttals to such nonsense.

And make that call. A child perp on the loose is just as dangerous
as
an adult one.

That's what's keeping me up at night. Again, these are my neighbors,
as
are other children.

If there is a perp on the loose and agreed upon controls to reduce the
risk of reabuse then you are right to be concerned. Express your
concerns to CPS AGAIN.

One of the things who are calling CPS is that much of what they say
has to be measured by the possibility, as I mentioned, of someone
filing falsely... And not having sufficient information to make the
claim plausable for a action and investigation.

One of the things that helps is having the guts to keep calling.

I just need to know who to call to make sure the girls are really
safe.

No such person exists on this planet. All you can do is all you can
do, and that goes for CPS. Where they are constrained by the law and
judiciary they cannot give such an assurance of absolute safety.

I'm afraid if I call the agency and say they're allowing B to be in
the
same home with G I'll sound like the vindictive neighbor you
mentioned
above. I'm afraid if I don't, there will be further assaults.

So, just like never winning the lottery, you are considering not
playing because you might not win. Okay, but think that through.

Which would be the more serious outcome. That you were wrong and
nothing happens, or that you are right and something happens but you
haven't called?

You'll have to buy a lottery ticket if your protestions would make
sense to you. Report, then worry about how you sound.

You aren't required to absolute proof of anything. That is the job of
an investigator. If you saw the window of a neighborhod business open
at night with no lights on, would you not call the police on the
chance of someone being there that shouldn't be?

You do not have to KNOW that some one is in there to report conditions
that make it possible. And foster parents take on this risk the
instant they become certified, that they will someday be accused of
abuse themselves. If everyone is innocent at your neighbors it will
just be educational for them -- and a condition of service already
accepted by thousands of foster parents.

Susan

Kane