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Old October 27th 03, 03:41 PM
Dennis Hancock
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Default Dennis was U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking


"Kane" wrote in message
om...
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:41:06 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:

Thank you for interspercing your comments in proximity to my post. It
makes for much more readible and interesting posts to my mind.


"Kane" wrote in message
om...
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 22:42:01 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:


"Kane" wrote in message
It isn't dishonest of me to consider the link between abuse and
spanking nor is it dishonest of me to consider the state of the
world
and its societies as possibly being linked to the use of pain

and
humiliation in parenting.

One can find a 'link' to just about everything,
Kane wrote:
Yes, one can. I've noticed the spankers do, just as you will do

very
soon in this reply of yours.


No Kane, it's apparent that only YOU see direct links which do not

exist.

No, I am not the only person to see such links. Those doing research
in brain scans and behavioral observation research are my sources. As
well as my own long history of observation and treatment of abused
children.


Your knowledge of brain scans has already been proven faulty and you
continue with it? You keep talking about your own long history of
observation and treatment of abused children, funny, I never thought that
was the duty of an Air Force professional. I think you make things up as
you go along.

Amusing that you now can predict what others will say.


It's no mystery or special claim. There is a long history of responses
to the spanking issue by spankers in these negs. I daresay you could
have made the same claim about me. I tend to repost or reuse data and
information that is relevant.


Just as there is a long history of nonsense from people who claim that
spanking is abusive. They are too caught up in their own self righeousness
that they cannot comprehend the damage that they are creating.

Talking in circles and contradicting oneself is not 'posting and resuing
data and information that is relevant', it's stretching to prove to yourself
that you are right, no matter what others might think.


Kane wrote:
Do you believe that pain received in childhood reduces the pain

given
by that child when she grows up?


I haven't seen a single person make that claim here, your kind of

stretching
a bit aren't you?


I have seen numerous persons make such a claim. You just fail to
recognize it. Many times the unwanted behavior a parent spanks for is
hitting and biting between children or hitting the adult.


Wrong, I've followed the thread from the beginning and nowhere can I find
anywhere that anyone has made such a claim. Your saying it here doesn't
make it so, it is only your interpretation, which has been stretched quite a
bit as it is, such as your continuing statements that you cannot 'teach'
mathematics or writing through pain, which again, no one has claimed..


My question though wasn't really that narrow in scope. I am, of
course, referring to the fact that many who were spanked do so to
their children, and tend, all too often, as was recently posted to
this ng, escalate to more pain by way of spanking.


People who were physically abused generally resort to physical abuse
themselves. It's a never ending cycle, yet you still refuse to
differentiate between abuse and spanking, or show proof that those who spank
for disciplinary reasons or teaching their child correct behavior at a very
young age actually do 'escalate' the pain..


Pain received in childhood teaches a child at the
simplest most basic level to avoid certain situations BECAUSE they

can be
painful.


I agree. Natural consequences are extremely educational, but cause the
object of the pain is the object or action the child touchers or does.
Children get plenty of that, from the very first.

They watch and study with great intensity even the expression and the
body language of their primary parent, usually their mother. Mother's
who are observant notice very subtle responses from their child
according to how the mother presents to them.

It doesn't 'reduce' adulthood pain, it reinforces against stupid
behavior.


I agree. I doesn't reduce adutlhood pain. I would argue that it does
increase the likelihood of the pain parented child to find MORE pain
in adulthood. Some of it psychological and some behavioral.

In other words the spanked child tends to have reactions that interfer
with them getting what they need and want without a lot of pain
involved. Sometimes for themselves and sometimes for others.


Where does that inference come in? My observations have been that the non
spanked child has very little awareness of the consequences of his/her
actions and becomes quite manipulative, and that becomes quite problematic
as they grow older.


And your second point: "it reinforces against stupid
behavior" something of a puzzle.

I've done a great deal of animal training, and some of my most
interesting work was undoing the bad training of others. I did a great
deal of it.

Animals do not have the reasoning ability that humans do. By 'stupid'
behavior, in the very young, it's behavior that causes pain to them.
EXACTLY as many animals react by avoiding that situation. As a child grows
older, he learns that there are consequences to his actions. Something
many of your thinking cannot comprehend because you have taken away all the
consequences.

And incident that comes readily to mind was a young polo mare trucked
in for training at a large stable I managed. I'd say she was probably
a 3 year old. Had been range bred and belonged originally to one of
the Rockerfellers. I watched the "trainer" work with her. He was a
quick hand with the polo whip. Ever see one?

It's about three feet long, leather covered with a nylon core, very
springy and stiff. If you took the leather off you could cut a horse
with it...and even with leather it leaves a terrible welt. Very
painful.

She managed to survive all his "training" pretty well...after all
horses if well bred tend to have temperments to cope with and tolerate
man. She was a Thorougbred.

It came time to ship her out to the new owner for her introduction to
the game in scrimmages and practices. The "trainer" was putting her in
the truck, up a short ramp at a kind of steep angle, but one she could
make easily.

She fought going into the truck, a flatbed with high stake sides. He
would get her to the ramp (he was mounted on her) and she would balk
just at the first step, the touch of the wooden ramp. He'd whip her,
hard with that polo whip, and she would immediately start running
backward pretty fast away from the ramp...a very dangerous thing for a
horse to do, what with bystanders, etc.

I was known for teaching horses to trailer and truck very quickly,
usually in 10 or 15 minutes with the lead rope just thrown over their
back. I have a very light touch with animals and children. I just kind
of walk them where they need to be and oddly my gentle approach seems
to work every time...with abused horses or abused children.

And they shortly walk alone where I want them to go, no lead rope at
all.

The "trainer" thought he had one even I couldn't train...and though he
had watched me do it many times...he took a chance this little mare
was so bad I couldn't work with her.

He didn't know that he had trained her for me of course.

I took his whip, mounted up, rode the mare to the ramp, she balked, I
reined her in a quick spin so she was facing away from the truck and
just touched her rump with the polo whip...not hitting.....where he
had been whipping her, and she of course did as trained...she ran
backwards....right up into the truck. I dismounted, tossed him his
whip, pulled off the saddle and bridle and walked down the ramp.

All one has to do to NOT use pain is the think. Is that so very hard?


And now let's put that same comparison to use in the REAL world of humans.
It has only been in recent history where 'spanking' or any type of corporal
punsihment has been looked down upon. YOU want to blame the condition of
society upon the 'spankers' of the past, but if you take note, we've
actually come to the point where the lack of spanking has been much more
prevalent over the past 30 years or so than at any time in past history.

In ancient times, whipping, and caning were quite prevalent.. Now, for the
most part in most societies, they are considered barbaric. When I went to
public schools, one would expect to be punished by a swat with a wooden
paddle on the rear end if you misbehaved. Take a good hard long look at the
condition of the public schools since corporal punishment has been banned.

Only a fool could refuse to see the obvious. That we have created a
generation which has absolutely no respect for authority and no fear of
retribution. There are no consequences. Try your approach with teenagers and
they'll tell you to go to hell just as quickly as not. For why not, all it
will do is get them out of school for a day. No punishment, no discipline.


We've listened to the psychobabble that we must never say anything negative
to a child as it might hurt their psyche.. but what we have created is a
generation of children who are emotional cripples who cannot deal with even
the slightest bit of criticism without going off on tantrums. While
positive reinforcement is always preferable, one also has to learn to deal
with reality and that there are negatives which arise. Those who are denied
that, are emotionally crippled for life.


Do you honestly believe that the Columbine kids were the only children in
history who were outcast by their classmates, or that the violence in school
is a result of 'spanking' by parents 50 or 60 years ago, when conditions
were much better.

You still don't get it do you. You are completely blinded to reality by
living in a world of 'studies' and 'observations' of such limited structure
that you don't realize the damage you and those who think like you have
truly done.

I do not argue passionately for spanking, only to combat the nonsense spoon
fed us by those 'professionals', many of whom have never had children, which
has led us down the path of ruin, and damaged the emotional health of
children forever.

As an Air Force professional, you certainly appear to know little or nothing
about the importance of discipline, or how badly your logic has degraded it
in the real world, not only in the armed forces.

Continue to make your wild claims and believe that you are doing good. Most
parents realize that people like you are the reasons for many of today's
problems and deal with their children on a one to one basis depending upon
their needs.

For one, I will let you wallow in your self righeousness and drop from this
discussion. You have shown yourself to be completely closed minded.. as you
have tried to portray myself and others who have debated you.

However, IF you truly have been a lurker here, you will note that I have on
several occassions reversed my opinion when presented with honest fact and
reasoning for how others believe or perceive things. But I will not buy
into talking in circles and contradictions, something which is more harmful
to society than taking charge of the upbringing of ones children to be well
rounded and emotionally stable in dealing with the world around us.