Tantrums!!!

On 12 Nov 2004 18:02:43 -0800, "Cathy Weeks"
scribbled:

Ok... in the last 2 months Kivi's tantrums have grown steadily worse.

If she doesn't get her way, she screams. I mean for any reason. And
I'm not just talking a few shreaks or whines. I mean ear-splitting
window-shattering (well, almost), top-of-the-lungs SCREAMS. Sometimes
it's in your face when it happens. Other times in her car seat. If
she's really angry, it includes kicking, hitting, biting.

My 4.5 yo had a phase like this.... except the kicking hitting and
biting.

When it's in the car, or close to you, it's so loud it HURTS.

Yep, I remember!

snip

We've decided that when we are home, if she begins one of these
tantrums, we will pick her up, put her in her room, and close the door,
telling her to stay until she can behave.

It seems to work reasonably well. This afternoon, she was in her room
for maybe 1-2 minutes, and when she came out, she was tearful, but in
control. We gave her lovies and went on with things.

Sounds good.

But how do you handle tantrums when you are out and about? I figured
we can just pick her up and leave, but what if you really needed the
items you were shopping for? What if the grocery cart is full of
frozen foods?

I know most people say they'll just pick up and leave, but IMO, that's
not always practical, and IMO, it can give them the idea that they'll
be spared the shopping trip by tossing a hissy fit.
When E was in the worst part of this phase, I scheduled shopping
trips around being able to take her. For a while, she didn't go *at
all* and stayed home with daddy.... for iirc, about an 8 month period.
*I* enjoyed shopping alone ;-)
On days that the shopping was imperative and I had no way of having
her stay home with daddy, I'd just quickly finish up and grab the
final essentials and leave a more leisurely shopping trip for another
time. If her fit upset other shoppers waiting in line, too bad... I
was doing the best I could. Besides, you'd be surprised how fast
another checklane will open up when a child is yelling, lol.

She won't sit in the cart much anymore (she's 1 month shy of her 3rd
birthday) and prefers to run around. But she won't follow along behind
the cart. She wants to run around and explore, and she WON'T stay with
you.

I wouldn't make this an option, then. My dd1 had to either hold onto
the cart side, or she went back in the seat. Sometimes, I allowed
riding in the basket part.

She is also unbargainable... "honey, lets finish our shopping, then
we'll play a bit." [Scream]. Or even, "honey, if you are good while
shopping, we'll play a bit" [Scream]. Did I mention that she's
stubborn as a mule?

I remember times like this!

Most of the time these days, shopping is done with both parents. One to
run after Kivi the other to do the shopping. Or the shopping is done
by one parent, while the other remains at home with her.

I wouldn't even allow the option of one parent chasing her. You've
entered a stage that makes previously enjoyable family-time outings,
hellish.

We rarely if ever "give in" to tantrums, so I'm not sure what she
thinks it will get her. (And let me tell you, when someone is
screaming like a banshee at me, I'm not inclined to be terribly
generous!) Chris (DH) thinks she might just have a huge amount of
emotion, and isn't sure how to deal with it.

Nope. She's 3. It really is that simple.

I've found that if she doesn't eat properly (as toddlers seem to be
wont to do - too busy(?) to eat) her tantrums are much worse - they
happen more easily, and more often. But even if good meals cuts the
number of tantrums down by 50%, we still have a lot of screaming.

Yeah, hunger-induced tantrums are no fun. I caught on pretty quickly,
and learned to always have snackable things in the car, or in my
purse.

I'd like to put good food on the table, and leave it to Kivi to eat or
not as she needs, to let her develop her own good eating habits, and
learn when she's hungry or not, but if I do that, she doesn't eat much,
then we all suffer with the tantrums. So I end up following her around
with a yogurt cup (though I'm careful not to push too much - as soon as
she tells me she's done, or doesn't want any more, I quit). She does
sit well at the table sometimes - usually when I serve her favorite
meal (pancakes, scrambled eggs and veggie sausage - all of which she
loves), but otherwise she'll eat 3 bites and then refuse to sit any
longer. Couple this with the fact that I think she's going through a
growth spurt - she's ASKING for more food, AND eating more when she
does eat, and so seems to suffer more for it when she doesn't eat.

I'd never do this. I put food out and let dd1 do the "drive by
eating" thing for a long time. It was so much less stressful.

When and how did she turn into such a brat?

Nah, she's not a "brat". She's 3.

It isn't all unpleasantness. She's incredibly sweet - if she senses
that someone is unhappy, she sympathetic and loving and full of kisses
and sweetness. She's also a joy, and fun to be around - sometimes.

Those times make the hard times worth it, don't they?

She's MUCH harder now than she was at her second birthday!

Yep, 2 was cake for us.

Nan

Sue wrote:

Does she like to
help at the grocery store? Can you tell her to pick out some fruit that she
likes or get a jar of peanut butter off the shelf for you? Including them is
helpful.

I had totally forgotten about this, but it worked very well
for us. I'd enlist their help before going to the store, and would
have them do as much of the "work" as possible. I'd ask for the "big
red can of tomatoes" or "three bananas" or whatever was age appropriate
(later I'd ask things that required reading, like asking for a
specific brand, or math, like the least expensive X). Keeping them
busy helped a lot, and they liked to help.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Sue wrote:

I don't personally agree with this philosphy at this age. How I handled the
food was to get a picnic table and to lay non-perishable snacks out and let
the girls eat when they wanted.

We have long had spots with reasonable snacks out for the
kids. I've got a big bowl on a low counter (even Genevieve can
reach it) filled with reasonable snacks that the kids can have
almost anytime (I discourage snacks right before meals or they
won't eat anything). There are also certain snacks in the 'fridge
they can have pretty much anytime (yogurt, fruit, cheese, that
sort of thing that I don't leave out). Even now, Genevieve will
go grab herself a snack and bring it to me to open it when she's
hungry. Everyone sits at the table for three meals a day, but
I don't think little kids can get by on just three meals a
day. Heck, I don't think older kids can. If the boys don't
get an after school snack, it's bad news. If they're home,
they'll usually have a mid-morning snack too. Genevieve has
quite a few more snacks than that.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:42:19 -0500, Ericka Kammerer
scribbled:

Nan wrote:

I know most people say they'll just pick up and leave, but IMO, that's
not always practical, and IMO, it can give them the idea that they'll
be spared the shopping trip by tossing a hissy fit.

That's why when you're "in training" you make sure to
schedule somewhere she *wants* to go after the trip she *doesn't*
want to take. She screws up your errand, and she doesn't get
hers either--an appropriate give-and-take. We do the same
when on vacations (plan an appropriate mix of adult and kid
activities) and when shopping (a mix of stores for adults and
for kids). Everyone should get turns doing something they
want to do, but those who don't allow others to have their
turn find that their own turns disappear.
It's a pain for a while, but I think it really works
in the long run. After they've got the idea, their "fun
trip" doesn't have to occur *immediately* after your
fun/necessary trip.

We've done this, also. I was thinking of all the times I just *had*
to get the groceries and get home.... no matter what.

Nan

Nan wrote:

I know most people say they'll just pick up and leave, but IMO, that's
not always practical, and IMO, it can give them the idea that they'll
be spared the shopping trip by tossing a hissy fit.

That's why when you're "in training" you make sure to
schedule somewhere she *wants* to go after the trip she *doesn't*
want to take. She screws up your errand, and she doesn't get
hers either--an appropriate give-and-take. We do the same
when on vacations (plan an appropriate mix of adult and kid
activities) and when shopping (a mix of stores for adults and
for kids). Everyone should get turns doing something they
want to do, but those who don't allow others to have their
turn find that their own turns disappear.
It's a pain for a while, but I think it really works
in the long run. After they've got the idea, their "fun
trip" doesn't have to occur *immediately* after your
fun/necessary trip.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Cathy Weeks" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok... in the last 2 months Kivi's tantrums have grown steadily worse.

Sounds like DS.

If she doesn't get her way, she screams. I mean for any reason. And
I'm not just talking a few shreaks or whines. I mean ear-splitting
window-shattering (well, almost), top-of-the-lungs SCREAMS. Sometimes
it's in your face when it happens. Other times in her car seat. If
she's really angry, it includes kicking, hitting, biting.

DS started this. I have decided to get super strict on it. Even if he is
just testing the limits and doing a little hit that doesn't hurt, he
immediately is put in his room for 5 minutes and I tell him he can stay
there until he feels better. When the timer goes off, I go check on him.
If he's still hitting, he gets another 5 minutes. I only started that a
couple days ago and the difference is amazing.

If he's just very upset and yelling at me, I tell him I'm getting mad, I
don't want to play with him when he's yelling at me. Mommy needs a time
out. I go to my room and lock the door for 3 minutes. He follows me and
yells and screams at my door. When the time is up, I go out, if he's still
yelling and screaming, I go back for another 3 minutes. I started that a
couple days ago and it's also worked.

I always tell him it's okay to be mad, it's not okay to behave the way he's
behaving. Hopefully, by giving myself a timeout when I'm frustrated, it
will show him what to do when he's frustrated. He's actually given himself
timeouts in the past, so I'd like to reinforce that.

When it's in the car, or close to you, it's so loud it HURTS.

This hasn't happened to me. If at all possible, could you pull over and
exit the car? Maybe you could say you need a timeout or her yelling is
hurting your ears. I have found the carseat a very effective timeout area
for when we are out. I put DS in it, he's all strapped in, and I leave the
car and stand behind it.


Example: "I want a piece of candy." "We don't any" [SCREAM]

Haven't had this problem yet.

But how do you handle tantrums when you are out and about? I figured
we can just pick her up and leave, but what if you really needed the
items you were shopping for? What if the grocery cart is full of
frozen foods?

That's hard. I usually try to leave. It hasn't happened when I have a load
of groceries, though, because I don't do that much shopping with the kids in
tow.

Most of the time these days, shopping is done with both parents. One to
run after Kivi the other to do the shopping. Or the shopping is done
by one parent, while the other remains at home with her.

That's us.

When and how did she turn into such a brat?

Please don't say that.

She's MUCH harder now than she was at her second birthday!

Amen. I don't believe in terrible twos. Everyone I've talked to says it's
terrible 3's.

toypup wrote:

"Cathy Weeks" wrote in message
oups.com...

She's MUCH harder now than she was at her second birthday!

Amen. I don't believe in terrible twos. Everyone I've talked to says it's
terrible 3's.

I guess I shouldn't let slip that I had temper tantrums until I was
sixteen...

--
Sara

"What people do all day? Mayor Fox. Bunny! Bunny! Hop!
Bunny! Bunny! Bunny! No... bunny."

Cathy Weeks wrote:

When and how did she turn into such a brat?

Sorry if I offended anyone by using the term "brat." I *don't* use it
with her, or even call her that when discussing the situation with my
dh. It *is* unpleasant behavior though.

It isn't all unpleasantness. She's incredibly sweet - if she senses
that someone is unhappy, she sympathetic and loving and full of
kisses
and sweetness. She's also a joy, and fun to be around - sometimes.

An update:

We went to the grocery store, and she had almost two blowups - at first
she wanted one of the baby-seat carts (a problem because the novelty
wears off in 5 minutes - we've tried), and when she started to blow up,
Chris said, we'll take you home, and she said "I WANT to go home". He
ended up just wait I got out of the bathroom. I picked her up and
plopped into a cart without asking what she wanted, and immediately
started talking to her and distracting her, and she barely noticed.

We had discussed it going in, and we decided that she had to stay in
the cart for the majority of the trip. She REALLY likes to help scoop
at the bulk foods section, so as soon as she started to push hard to
get out of the cart, and I told her she needed to stay in the cart, I
could see her starting to ramp up into a tantrum (before any screams
started, but I could see her muscles stiffening up). So I said "Kivi..
do you want to scoop at the bulk foods?" "yes" "then you have to stay
in the cart and behave well. THEN we'll go to the bulk foods. I
expected her usual blowup (she's always been unbargainable) but she
thought about it and said "OK."

And she was quite good, though I did have to work hard at distracting
her - handing her stuff to look at and/or hold, give her food samples
(fresh orange slices, yum!) and doing "surprise hugs" (where I lean
over and say "surprise hug!" and do a quick hug and let go
immediately), and generally moving quickly. It was definitely tiring,
but waaaaaay better than tantrums. Near the tale end of the trip, when
she was getting pretty sick of sitting in the cart, but before it
became a crisis for her, I then took her over to bulk foods and she and
Chris (dh) did the scooping. I took a few minutes to look at the tea
aisle in peace while they did so. ;-) She stayed out of the cart after
that, but we just headed for the checkout anyway. And she was
well-behaved through that.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

On 13 Nov 2004 21:13:53 -0800, "Cathy Weeks"
scribbled:


Cathy Weeks wrote:

When and how did she turn into such a brat?

Sorry if I offended anyone by using the term "brat." I *don't* use it
with her, or even call her that when discussing the situation with my
dh. It *is* unpleasant behavior though.

Oh, I wasn't offended, and I don't feel anyone else was.... my
response was just so you wouldn't think of her in that way, and I was
trying to reassure you that she's acting very typical for her age.

An update:

We went to the grocery store, and she had almost two blowups - at first
she wanted one of the baby-seat carts (a problem because the novelty
wears off in 5 minutes - we've tried), and when she started to blow up,
Chris said, we'll take you home, and she said "I WANT to go home". He
ended up just wait I got out of the bathroom. I picked her up and
plopped into a cart without asking what she wanted, and immediately
started talking to her and distracting her, and she barely noticed.

We had discussed it going in, and we decided that she had to stay in
the cart for the majority of the trip. She REALLY likes to help scoop
at the bulk foods section, so as soon as she started to push hard to
get out of the cart, and I told her she needed to stay in the cart, I
could see her starting to ramp up into a tantrum (before any screams
started, but I could see her muscles stiffening up). So I said "Kivi..
do you want to scoop at the bulk foods?" "yes" "then you have to stay
in the cart and behave well. THEN we'll go to the bulk foods. I
expected her usual blowup (she's always been unbargainable) but she
thought about it and said "OK."

And she was quite good, though I did have to work hard at distracting
her - handing her stuff to look at and/or hold, give her food samples
(fresh orange slices, yum!) and doing "surprise hugs" (where I lean
over and say "surprise hug!" and do a quick hug and let go
immediately), and generally moving quickly. It was definitely tiring,
but waaaaaay better than tantrums. Near the tale end of the trip, when
she was getting pretty sick of sitting in the cart, but before it
became a crisis for her, I then took her over to bulk foods and she and
Chris (dh) did the scooping. I took a few minutes to look at the tea
aisle in peace while they did so. ;-) She stayed out of the cart after
that, but we just headed for the checkout anyway. And she was
well-behaved through that.

Good :-)
It's a start.... and a learning process!

Nan

In article .com,
"Cathy Weeks" wrote:

We've decided that when we are home, if she begins one of these
tantrums, we will pick her up, put her in her room, and close the door,
telling her to stay until she can behave.

It seems to work reasonably well. This afternoon, she was in her room
for maybe 1-2 minutes, and when she came out, she was tearful, but in
control. We gave her lovies and went on with things.

Sounds like a good plan. We do the same for biting/hitting (DS doesn't
scream, but he's older -- 3.5)

But how do you handle tantrums when you are out and about? I figured
we can just pick her up and leave, but what if you really needed the
items you were shopping for? What if the grocery cart is full of
frozen foods?

You need to manage the situation so that this doesn't happen. She needs to
have been fed recently, have had her sleep (if applicable), and you need to
make sure shopping is not boring. DS and I invariably had a meal at the
shopping centre, for example -- we shopped together from his birth until the
middle of this year, when he moved to a day care centre closer to home than to
work and the shops. Now DS is older, when we shop together, we discuss
selection of goods. Firstly, I talked in terms of distinguishing
freshness/ripeness, but I also talk about price. DS loves grapes, but they
aren't in season yet, and he now knows $15/kg is too much to pay!

She won't sit in the cart much anymore (she's 1 month shy of her 3rd
birthday) and prefers to run around. But she won't follow along behind
the cart. She wants to run around and explore, and she WON'T stay with
you.

This is a safety issue, and DS has never had a choice about it. Once he was
old enough to walk for a reasonable length of time, he could walk in the
supermarket, but any bolting or other bad behaviour (such as touching the
eggs) meant an instant move to the trolley seat. He cried, and I would be
sorry for him, reiterate the reason he was there, and carry on. Of course,
children in trolleys should be kept entertained -- you can usually give them
something unbreakable to hold. Also, keep talking to her -- "Now we need to
get some bread, then some canola oil..."

She is also unbargainable... "honey, lets finish our shopping, then
we'll play a bit." [Scream]. Or even, "honey, if you are good while
shopping, we'll play a bit" [Scream]. Did I mention that she's
stubborn as a mule?

I'd take no notice, or reiterate the statement. But your second sentence is
too vague for her to grasp, I think. Maybe "We are going to finish shopping
in the supermarket, and then we'll have morning tea/go to the playground."
After all, you aren't really giving her a choice. You are giving her
something to look forward to.

Most of the time these days, shopping is done with both parents. One to
run after Kivi the other to do the shopping. Or the shopping is done
by one parent, while the other remains at home with her.

I suppose the first option is useful if you are going somewhere together
afterwards. The second is preferred, if she can't yet cope with a long trip.
Another thing to consider is internet shopping.

We rarely if ever "give in" to tantrums, so I'm not sure what she
thinks it will get her. (And let me tell you, when someone is
screaming like a banshee at me, I'm not inclined to be terribly
generous!) Chris (DH) thinks she might just have a huge amount of
emotion, and isn't sure how to deal with it.

I tend to give feedback as a means to helping deal with emotions: "Are you
angry bcause I wouldn't let you touch the eggs?"

I've found that if she doesn't eat properly (as toddlers seem to be
wont to do - too busy(?) to eat) her tantrums are much worse - they
happen more easily, and more often. But even if good meals cuts the
number of tantrums down by 50%, we still have a lot of screaming.

True -- but look at other variables. If she has just had a long car trip to
the shops, she needs to run around, so making her sit in a trolley straight
afterwards is a bad move. If you shop at a time when she normally sleeps, you
will suffer for it. And so forth.

I'd like to put good food on the table, and leave it to Kivi to eat or
not as she needs, to let her develop her own good eating habits, and
learn when she's hungry or not, but if I do that, she doesn't eat much,
then we all suffer with the tantrums. So I end up following her around
with a yogurt cup (though I'm careful not to push too much - as soon as
she tells me she's done, or doesn't want any more, I quit).

I still don't think this is a good idea, and I like the snack station concept
(alhough I don't use it with DS).

She does
sit well at the table sometimes - usually when I serve her favorite
meal (pancakes, scrambled eggs and veggie sausage - all of which she
loves), but otherwise she'll eat 3 bites and then refuse to sit any
longer. rest snipped

This is an attention span thing, and an activity level thing. If meals are
preceded by periods of low-level activity (videos, play-dough, drawing etc),
she won't want to sit at the table for long. Try to make sure she's been
doing active things (running, climbing, dancing) before you want her to sit
down. Also, try to make meal times as regular as possible, as small children
thrive on predictability. If dinner is at 6pm one night and 8pm the next
night, you *will* have problems. DS has a window of opportunity for meals,
and delayed meals simultaneously kill his appetite and make him less
reasonable to deal with.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Life is like a cigarette -- smoke it to the butt." -- Harvie Krumpet