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A Plant's Motivation?



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 9th 03, 02:51 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A Plant's Motivation?

So,

What makes The Plant give advice to parents who come to these ngs for
help that will cause them MORE pain?

Why does The Plant fumble and flounder about like an Alzheimer's
victim never quite getting It's story straight?

Does The Plant have a money interest in the issues facing families and
agencies working with them?

Does it get fees for its posting here?

Does The Plant receive any state sponsored or paid benefits?

Has The Plant a relative, A Sprout perhaps, that screwed up so badly
It Too had an interaction with CPS?

Has The Plant had such an encounter Itself?

In that fateful encounter in childhood that The Plant has difficutly
remembering did It's father catch it and spank it, or is The Plant
another unspanked child who was spoiled by its parent into the current
lackluster, hapless, good for nothing The Plant appears to be?

Could it be the Father not only caught The Plant as a child and did
spank It, but did so many times, give that The Plant is unable to
clearly remember this incident, there could be others...many,
including beatings, possibly OTHER abuses It cannot "remember" either.

Did the parent protect The Plant from others who might harm It? What
is the mystery of The Plant's childhood then?

Is The Plant doing anything at all to actually help reform CPS or to
help families get their children back?

These and many other important questions remain to be answered.

The Plant won't answer them honestly, so it looks like someone who
knows the Plant will have to dig up the Dirt. Someone NOT connected to
the many organizations The Plant pimps for. Someone NOT an anti CPS
clone, sockpuppet, or other kind of loser...that let's you out,
Dennis, and more especially that all time winner, retire the do
nothing trophy, hapless twit, Greg.

Can it be done? Possibly Duplicitous Doug will step forward in It's
behalf. Risking of course, that I already KNOW what The Plant's story
really is and will blow his ass even more completely out of the water
than in the past when he lies or repeats lies he's been told.

The mystery.

What then, is A Plant's Motivation?

Kane
  #2  
Old September 10th 03, 03:17 AM
LaVonne Carlson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A Plant's Motivation?

Kane,

I try very hard not to label people or use disrespectful names. I'd like
to replace "The Plant" with "Fern." Fern, can you address these
questions?

LaVonne

Kane wrote:

So,

What makes The Plant give advice to parents who come to these ngs for
help that will cause them MORE pain?

Why does The Plant fumble and flounder about like an Alzheimer's
victim never quite getting It's story straight?

Does The Plant have a money interest in the issues facing families and
agencies working with them?

Does it get fees for its posting here?

Does The Plant receive any state sponsored or paid benefits?

Has The Plant a relative, A Sprout perhaps, that screwed up so badly
It Too had an interaction with CPS?

Has The Plant had such an encounter Itself?

In that fateful encounter in childhood that The Plant has difficutly
remembering did It's father catch it and spank it, or is The Plant
another unspanked child who was spoiled by its parent into the current
lackluster, hapless, good for nothing The Plant appears to be?

Could it be the Father not only caught The Plant as a child and did
spank It, but did so many times, give that The Plant is unable to
clearly remember this incident, there could be others...many,
including beatings, possibly OTHER abuses It cannot "remember" either.

Did the parent protect The Plant from others who might harm It? What
is the mystery of The Plant's childhood then?

Is The Plant doing anything at all to actually help reform CPS or to
help families get their children back?

These and many other important questions remain to be answered.

The Plant won't answer them honestly, so it looks like someone who
knows the Plant will have to dig up the Dirt. Someone NOT connected to
the many organizations The Plant pimps for. Someone NOT an anti CPS
clone, sockpuppet, or other kind of loser...that let's you out,
Dennis, and more especially that all time winner, retire the do
nothing trophy, hapless twit, Greg.

Can it be done? Possibly Duplicitous Doug will step forward in It's
behalf. Risking of course, that I already KNOW what The Plant's story
really is and will blow his ass even more completely out of the water
than in the past when he lies or repeats lies he's been told.

The mystery.

What then, is A Plant's Motivation?

Kane


  #3  
Old September 10th 03, 02:45 PM
Greg Hanson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A Plant's Motivation?

LaVonne said
I try very hard not to label people or use disrespectful
names. I'd like to replace "The Plant" with "Fern." Fern,
can you address these questions?


You try not to swear and whitewash like Kane?
But you would like Kane's foul questions answered?

Any point he makes is fruit of a poison tree.

Kane is so rabidly hateful of bio parents because
he feels his bio parents let him down and his adoptive
parents rescued him. The odd part of this is that
this story doesn't fit well given Kane's supposed age.
If he is indeed middle 40's, he was raised in the
late 50's or through the 60's, before Mondale wrote CAPTA.

Back in that era, there basically WAS NO Child Protection.

Yet he acts like he knows how it is, based on his own
experience from 30 plus years ago.

If some questions are to be answered, perhaps these
glaring inconsistencies about Kane should be answered.

Momentarily acting civilized does not make the length
and breadth of Kane's intent to smear and insult go away.
He swore a blue streak in ascps for over a year!
Despite his pretense at some sort of intellectual
superiority, his tactics of name calling, swearing and
smear abound in the newsgroup archive.
Where were you with your civilized amelioration when
he posted this large body of work?
No, you can not apologize FOR Kane.
He hangs around your neck like an albatross.

Kane tried using the old
"My buddy the psychologist says you're nutz" gambit.

Been done before.

The nature of newsgroups is such that smearing people
is much easier than getting such stuff corrected.
Even correcting information loses out to sheer volume
of posting, and the determination of a poster to
post incorrect information.

Kane and Dan can't even get a simple fact like the
childs stated age correct, referring to the child many
times as 6 when she was 7 and older throughout this.
I have pointed out the factual error, but they don't care.
They have since repeated the incorrect age repeatedly.

They have both tried to act like there was some
improper sexuality based only on minimal family
nakedness in the bathroom. One oddity is that Kane
revealed his almost nudist views of nakedness,
admitting he walked around with his adult male
privates exposed to young children.
I am much more conservative than that, yet what little
bit of "in passing" nakedness took place has been
blown up because DAN has some huge personal hangups.

Neither Dan nor Kane seems to care that CPS here
has never seen anything sexual to be an issue
in my families case.

When they compared me to Father Geoghan, I did
not see you object. Where was your civility then?

The ""game"" they're running is a LOT like the way
things worked for Joseph McCarthy when he ran the
HUAC hearings known as the 1950's witch hunts for
communists. If are a moderate of their view and
speak up about their paranoia, expect to be vilified
or at least chastised. And the witch hunt proceeds.

The crusade to "save kids" gets a strong reaction,
and virtually NO reaction to make sure the
crusading ""child savers"" are not paranoid.

Nobody in the ChildAbuse Industry wants to speak up
and demand that false information needs to be corrected.
That would be seen as "in favor of child abusers".

Your temporary ""civilized"" behavior in a forum
that Kane labeled "A Plant's Motivation" is
certainly worthy of question.

Do you not understand that?

There are a bunch of people in here who are
trying to defende themselves or our society from
unwarranted attacks from CPS. There is another
bunch in here who seems to want to assert that
all accused are guilty, just because they are
biological parents and they are accused.

People under attack and the attackers.

If the people under attack utter any offensive words,
it should be more understandeable than when the
other major faction insults and whitewashes.

Kane is not under attack.

He is connected with CPS. He first asserted that
he had a close relative who works for CPS. Later we
hear that he has experienced this from the inside,
as a child. The age he presents makes that dubious.
He had already shown that he hates bio-parents.
And he sad on a governing board over CPS.

How do you like those ethics?

My fiance' and I want our family back!

Kane is in here denying the WELL known faults of CPS.
He spews his hatred of bio-parents.
He calls us scum.

His good buddy Dan never publicly corrects him.

Ethics give way to some sick strategy for
newsgroup ""stature"".

But that's what smears are all about.

Keep in mind if you think that a parent is smearing
CPS, that an AGENCY has no civil rights, and that
you know very well that CPS does smear parents.

Like a lot of the caseworkers, Kane sees evil
child beating parents every time he sees a child.

Parents see a fear of caseworkers taking their child
away for reasons that don't satisfy the requirements
of the US Constitution. A basic Ethical contract
in our society.

I have personally talked to about 7 Social Workers, shown
them documentary proof, and asked about the ethical
responsibility of Social Workers to demand that known
false information in a Juvenile Court case be corrected.

Many acknowledge the problem.
None want to speak up about it.

So don't wonder why parents under attack are angry
and see CPS as a giant RACKET, an industry, a fraud, etc.

But look at Kane's posts.
He acts like he is the renaissance man. Some model.
He smears, slurs, demeans, insults, and what he seems
to think is reasoned discourse is just grandiose insult.

My personal view is that Dan and Kane have turned
this newsgroup into an insufferable mess so that
it is of no use to any parent falsely accused.
I asked Dan and Neal to stop fighting in here long ago.
Neal left. (And Dan acted triumphant! What a twit.)
Dan went from one flame war to another in here.
Apparently that is the only way Dan communicates.

The effect on many parents seeking help is that they
feel like CPS is watching anything they say in here,
and a few have had comments in here used in court
to slam them as if they violated privacy laws.
Even parents smart enough to keep names and identifying
details out of this forum are inhibited by the CPS eye.
(Myself, If they brought something from here in, I
would simply demand that they bring the archive of
the ENTIRE newsgroup into evidence, or strike it
all for lack of contextual setting.)

When things got a little sticky for Dan, Kane showed up.
And with the swearing and hostility, I am still not
convinced that Kane is not just Dan's sock puppet.
  #4  
Old September 10th 03, 03:58 PM
Dan Sullivan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A Plant's Motivation?


"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
om...
LaVonne said
I try very hard not to label people or use disrespectful
names. I'd like to replace "The Plant" with "Fern." Fern,
can you address these questions?


You try not to swear and whitewash like Kane?
But you would like Kane's foul questions answered?

Any point he makes is fruit of a poison tree.


Why is that?

Kane is so rabidly hateful of bio parents because
he feels his bio parents let him down and his adoptive
parents rescued him.


Where'd you get that info, Greg?

The odd part of this is that
this story doesn't fit well given Kane's supposed age.
If he is indeed middle 40's, he was raised in the
late 50's or through the 60's, before Mondale wrote CAPTA.


When did Kane claim he was in his mid-forties?

His SON may be in his forties...

Back in that era, there basically WAS NO Child Protection.

Yet he acts like he knows how it is, based on his own
experience from 30 plus years ago.


And thirty years of being in the business.

If some questions are to be answered, perhaps these
glaring inconsistencies about Kane should be answered.


Get yer facts sraight first, Greg, and then ask questions.

Momentarily acting civilized does not make the length
and breadth of Kane's intent to smear and insult go away.
He swore a blue streak in ascps for over a year!
Despite his pretense at some sort of intellectual
superiority, his tactics of name calling, swearing and
smear abound in the newsgroup archive.
Where were you with your civilized amelioration when
he posted this large body of work?


Amelioration?

Please explain.

No, you can not apologize FOR Kane.


No one's apologizing for Kane.

He hangs around your neck like an albatross.

Kane tried using the old
"My buddy the psychologist says you're nutz" gambit.

Been done before.


How many times, Greg?

The nature of newsgroups is such that smearing people
is much easier than getting such stuff corrected.


Which stuff?

Even correcting information loses out to sheer volume
of posting, and the determination of a poster to
post incorrect information.

Kane and Dan can't even get a simple fact like the
childs stated age correct, referring to the child many
times as 6 when she was 7 and older throughout this.


Your girlfriend's daughter was never six?

I have pointed out the factual error, but they don't care.
They have since repeated the incorrect age repeatedly.


Brought to you from the Department of Redundancy Department.

They have both tried to act like there was some
improper sexuality based only on minimal family
nakedness in the bathroom. One oddity is that Kane
revealed his almost nudist views of nakedness,
admitting he walked around with his adult male
privates exposed to young children.
I am much more conservative than that, yet what little
bit of "in passing" nakedness took place has been
blown up because DAN has some huge personal hangups.


Yeah, I'm against non-related adult males being in the bathroom every time a
little girl needs to get out of the shower.

I'm against non-related adult males physically forcing little girls into the
shower.

I'm against non-related adult males forcing little girls to take cold
showers as punishment for wetting their pants.

Neither Dan nor Kane seems to care that CPS here
has never seen anything sexual to be an issue
in my families case.


Then why is there info about an earlier accusation of child sexual abuse
from a previous CPS investigation regarding YOU in yer girlfriend's case,
Greg?

When they compared me to Father Geoghan, I did
not see you object. Where was your civility then?


Who compared you to Father Geoghan?

And when?

The ""game"" they're running is a LOT like the way
things worked for Joseph McCarthy when he ran the
HUAC hearings known as the 1950's witch hunts for
communists. If are a moderate of their view and
speak up about their paranoia, expect to be vilified
or at least chastised.


Is that a threat, Greg?

And the witch hunt proceeds.

The crusade to "save kids" gets a strong reaction,
and virtually NO reaction to make sure the
crusading ""child savers"" are not paranoid.

Nobody in the ChildAbuse Industry wants to speak up
and demand that false information needs to be corrected.
That would be seen as "in favor of child abusers".

Your temporary ""civilized"" behavior in a forum
that Kane labeled "A Plant's Motivation" is
certainly worthy of question.

Do you not understand that?

There are a bunch of people in here who are
trying to defende themselves or our society from
unwarranted attacks from CPS. There is another
bunch in here who seems to want to assert that
all accused are guilty, just because they are
biological parents and they are accused.


Greg, you aren't a bioparent and you're the only one being accused of
maltreatment.

Your arguement doesn't hold water.

People under attack and the attackers.

If the people under attack utter any offensive words,
it should be more understandeable than when the
other major faction insults and whitewashes.

Kane is not under attack.

He is connected with CPS. He first asserted that
he had a close relative who works for CPS. Later we
hear that he has experienced this from the inside,
as a child. The age he presents makes that dubious.
He had already shown that he hates bio-parents.
And he sad on a governing board over CPS.

How do you like those ethics?

My fiance' and I want our family back!

Kane is in here denying the WELL known faults of CPS.


Kane loves to see CPS lose.

CPS loses for a very good reason... they deserve to lose.

He spews his hatred of bio-parents.


Not at all. He hates abusers.

He calls us scum.


You ARE scum, Greg.

His good buddy Dan never publicly corrects him.


Many times I've posted my displeasure in the words Kane chooses to use.

Ethics give way to some sick strategy for
newsgroup ""stature"".


You've got that backwards, Greg.

But that's what smears are all about.

Keep in mind if you think that a parent is smearing
CPS, that an AGENCY has no civil rights, and that
you know very well that CPS does smear parents.

Like a lot of the caseworkers, Kane sees evil
child beating parents every time he sees a child.


And you know that how, Greg?

Parents see a fear of caseworkers taking their child
away for reasons that don't satisfy the requirements
of the US Constitution.


"Parents see a fear of caseworkers... ???"

The trolly has left the tracks again, Greg.

A basic Ethical contract
in our society.

I have personally talked to about 7 Social Workers, shown
them documentary proof, and asked about the ethical
responsibility of Social Workers to demand that known
false information in a Juvenile Court case be corrected.


Show yer proof to the psych evaluator and get it into evidence.

Many acknowledge the problem.
None want to speak up about it.

So don't wonder why parents under attack are angry
and see CPS as a giant RACKET, an industry, a fraud, etc.

But look at Kane's posts.
He acts like he is the renaissance man. Some model.
He smears, slurs, demeans, insults, and what he seems
to think is reasoned discourse is just grandiose insult.


Kane believes he insults the people who DESERVE to be insulted.

My personal view is that Dan and Kane have turned
this newsgroup into an insufferable mess so that
it is of no use to any parent falsely accused.


It was an "insufferable mess" before I got here.

No one ever got their children back from FC.

And when the first one did whatsisname chastized the woman for not fighting
"for society!!!!!"

Yeah, all she did was get her three kids back.

And then David and Amy Carl got their five kids back.

Chuck got his daughter back the day before her first birthday.

Quite the "insufferable mess."

I asked Dan and Neal to stop fighting in here long ago.
Neal left.


Hoo-FREAKIN-rayyyyyy!

(And Dan acted triumphant! What a twit.)


Why am I a "twit?"?

What did whatsisname ever do?

He posted that it was OK to force red pepper into children's mouths as
punishment and claimed that proof had already been posted on the NG.

After being challenged for months to cite the facts whatsismane finally
posted a news
story in which a policeman was arrested for committing the same offense and
had lost his job because of it!

Possibly permanently!!!

For over a year whatsisname claimed the red pepper punishment was OK'd by
the courts.

When all along he knew it was a lie.

This NG is a place where people come to get OUT of trouble with CPS... NOT
DEEPER INTO TROUBLE!!!

Hey, and you didn't mention that Bob SueCPS left too.

Altho he does pop in from time to time ( anonymously) when you and Dennis
can't take the heat.

Dan went from one flame war to another in here.
Apparently that is the only way Dan communicates.


I communicate very well, Greg.

The effect on many parents seeking help is that they
feel like CPS is watching anything they say in here,


A few people from CPS have posted here.

and a few have had comments in here used in court
to slam them as if they violated privacy laws.


Bull ****, Greg.

Name em.

Name one!

Even parents smart enough to keep names and identifying
details out of this forum are inhibited by the CPS eye.


Why on earth would an anonymous person... someone who's unrecognizable and
untraceable... be inhibited?

That's the reason they ARE anonymous... NOT to be inhibited.

(Myself, If they brought something from here in, I
would simply demand that they bring the archive of
the ENTIRE newsgroup into evidence, or strike it
all for lack of contextual setting.)


YOU would demand???

You aren't even allowed in the Courtroom, Greg.

When things got a little sticky for Dan, Kane showed up.


What things got sticky for me, Greg?

I haven't lost ONCE to CPS since 1987.

And with the swearing and hostility, I am still not
convinced that Kane is not just Dan's sock puppet.


You aren't convinced that you being in the bathroom everytime a little girl
finished showering, you physically forcing her back into the shower when she
hadn't rinsed off enough, and you forcing her to take cold showers as
punishment for wetting her pants, isn't FREAKIN child maltreatment; WHEN IT
IS!!!

Now be sure you fail to respond to everything I've just posted, Greg, as
usual.

Dan


  #5  
Old September 10th 03, 09:50 PM
Greg Hanson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A Plant's Motivation?

Your girlfriend's daughter was never six?
Not during this case.

Yeah, I'm against blah, blah...

Who gives a rip? Nobody appointed you God.

Then why is there info about an earlier accusation
of child sexual abuse from a previous CPS investigation
regarding YOU in yer girlfriend's case, Greg?


1. There never was any prior accusation of any such thing.
2. There is no accusation of sexual abuse in this case.
3. The caseworker LIED, about past, in affidavit to court.

The ""game"" they're running is a LOT like the way
things worked for Joseph McCarthy when he ran the
HUAC hearings known as the 1950's witch hunts for
communists. If

[you]
are a moderate of their view and speak up about their
paranoia, expect to be vilified or at least chastised.


Is that a threat, Greg?


How is a description of your mode of operation in
any way a threat from me?

Greg, you aren't a bioparent and you're the only
one being accused of maltreatment.


Who else wants to volunteer to stand trial
before you, the grand inquisitor?

Parents see a fear of caseworkers taking their child
away for reasons that don't satisfy the requirements
of the US Constitution.


"Parents see a fear of caseworkers... ???"

The trolly has left the tracks again, Greg.


Yes, it has.

A basic Ethical contract
in our society.


Show yer proof to the psych evaluator and get it into evidence.


"Sure! Stick your neck right in this noose! We won't pull it!"

What makes you think that a psychologist (not a hard science remember)
who is unethical enough to accept a 1" stack of documents from
uncredentialed non-professionals would be rightious?
Wouldn't he want to please the CPS amateurs who send him so much
business? Do you think he didn't get the message that this stack
was intended to RIG the psych eval?

We've seen other fiascos first hand that don't put that
outside the realm of reasonable suspicion.

Kane believes he insults the people who DESERVE to be insulted.


And you teased because I made a redundant comment?

It was an "insufferable mess" before I got here.
No one ever got their children back from FC.


That is flat out not true. Why did you say it?

And when the first one did whatsisname chastized the
woman for not fighting "for society!!!!!"


Is this where you preach blind cooperation at all costs??

And then David and Amy Carl got their five kids back.


And you think you were the only person sending them info??
I thought it was pretty hilarious and idiotic how CPS
got a court order to abscond with their computer to look
for incriminating files, considering it was a
WEB TV terminal, which has NO FILES in it whatsoever!

Did you help them launch any action because of the
aggregious illegal search and seizure?

Do you think you have in any way stopped that sort of
violation of people's rights?

They haven't sued for the terrible FISHING EXPEDITION
this computer grab represents?

But I'm not making any claims to stroke my ego.

Chuck got his daughter back the day before her first birthday.


What did whatsisname ever do?

He posted that it was OK to force red pepper into children's mouths as
punishment and claimed that proof had already been posted on the NG.


You badgered him about it constantly. Familiar tactic from you.
Any contribution he could have made to this forum was obscured
by your endless and unprompted whining about your attitude.
Nobody Care's about your attitude.
The endless bandwidth wasted dealing with your puke could have
lead to something constructive, aside from your ego.

I posted pleadings. You puked all over it.

Where are yours? At least I TRIED. You didn't.

After being challenged for months to blah blah..


Nobody cares about your hysterical judgements of who you
decide to vilify. You are as rediculous as Joe McCarthy was.
He died of syphilis. What's your excuse?

For over a year whatsisname claimed the red pepper blah.


This NG is a place where people come to get OUT of trouble snip


Then why to you puke all over it with your incessant inane innuendo?

Hey, and you didn't mention that Bob SueCPS left too.

Altho he does pop in from time to time ( anonymously)
when you and Dennis can't take the heat.


Heat from you? You're just vomitous.

and a few have had comments in here used in court
to slam them as if they violated privacy laws.


Bull ****, Greg.
Name em.
Name one!


I don't drop names the way you do.
I'm not a pro, but I know that it would not be proper to do.
If you're such an expert, why don't you understand that?

You have done this sort of challenging a lot, apparently
completely ignorant of privacy laws and ethical issues.
You think I or others OWE you an answer to every question.
You're the grand inquisitor, put us on the rack!

Even parents smart enough to keep names and identifying
details out of this forum are inhibited by the CPS eye.


Why on earth would an anonymous person... someone who's
unrecognizable and untraceable... be inhibited?

That's the reason they ARE anonymous... NOT to be inhibited.


Ask Ron! He has the access to certain databases at work.
He thought he was anonymous, that when he posted his info
publicly on the internet, nobody would notice.

(Myself, If they brought something from here in, I
would simply demand that they bring the archive of
the ENTIRE newsgroup into evidence, or strike it
all for lack of contextual setting.)


YOU would demand???


That's a recommendation to help any who might
have that problem in the future.
If they want to USE THIS, make them BRING IT ALL IN
so that the comments can be put in context and
properly cross examined.

Too complex a concept, Dan?

You aren't convinced that you being in the bathroom blah.

Why should I be convinced of blah.
When CPS and the court have no legal issue there?

You waste everybody's precious time whining about these
things that the system here says are not issues in this case.

FOR AN EXAMPLE: FROM ANOTHER CASE
I didn't like that story about the cop who diddled
a 16 year old girl who volunteered at a fire station.

Whether I LIKE that or not, however, is NOT an issue
in that state where legally it was consensual.
If it's not illegal, drop it and move along.

Instead of harassing the cop for doing something you
and I both think was rotten, the way to deal with our
displeasure is to change the laws, not to do an
end-run around the meaning of a law because we don't
like it.

You have been redundant in your smear of me for a long time.
You have no grasp of facts from which to lecture me.

Your pretense of helpful attitude is ludicrous in this forum.
You have wasted this bandwidth for a long time.

Your redundant smear of me, prompted generally when
I criticize CPS, does not make you appear very good spirited.

I am able to agree to disagree. You seem unable to.
  #6  
Old September 10th 03, 11:46 PM
Dan Sullivan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A Plant's Motivation?


"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
om...
Your girlfriend's daughter was never six?

Not during this case.


Oh, but she was six prior to the removal.

Were you involved with the mother when this girl was six?

Were you living in the house when the girl was six?

How old was the little girl when you became involved with her mother?

Yeah, I'm against blah, blah...

Who gives a rip? Nobody appointed you God.


You posted that I had "huge personal hangups."

I simply elaborated in regards to your situation.

That IS what we were speaking about.

Then why is there info about an earlier accusation
of child sexual abuse from a previous CPS investigation
regarding YOU in yer girlfriend's case, Greg?


1. There never was any prior accusation of any such thing.


I wrote that there was INFO about an earlier accusation... not that there
WAS one.

2. There is no accusation of sexual abuse in this case.


What is in the CPS caserecord regarding you and the little girl in the
bathroom?

Have you ever read the mother's entire CPS caserecord?

3. The caseworker LIED, about past, in affidavit to court.


And that failed to create the suspicion of new sexual abuse?

If sexual abuse isn't part of the mother's case why are you concerned about
the affidavit, Gereg?

The ""game"" they're running is a LOT like the way
things worked for Joseph McCarthy when he ran the
HUAC hearings known as the 1950's witch hunts for
communists. If

[you]
are a moderate of their view and speak up about their
paranoia, expect to be vilified or at least chastised.


Is that a threat, Greg?


How is a description of your mode of operation in
any way a threat from me?


YOU wrote that LaVonne should "EXPECT to be villified or at least
chastised."

Greg, you aren't a bioparent and you're the only
one being accused of maltreatment.


Who else wants to volunteer to stand trial
before you, the grand inquisitor?


This IS a newsgroup, Greg.

You do realize that when you post information you WILL get a response.

In fact you even ASKED for comments.

Parents see a fear of caseworkers taking their child
away for reasons that don't satisfy the requirements
of the US Constitution.


"Parents see a fear of caseworkers... ???"

The trolly has left the tracks again, Greg.


Yes, it has.

A basic Ethical contract
in our society.


Show yer proof to the psych evaluator and get it into evidence.


"Sure! Stick your neck right in this noose! We won't pull it!"


If you've got nothing to hide...

What makes you think that a psychologist (not a hard science remember)
who is unethical enough to accept a 1" stack of documents from
uncredentialed non-professionals would be rightious?
Wouldn't he want to please the CPS amateurs who send him so much
business? Do you think he didn't get the message that this stack
was intended to RIG the psych eval?


When I went for my interview when I was accused in Fam Ct of molesting my
daugher the evaluator was Eileen Treacy.

Kelly Michael's case in NJ et al...

Do a Google on her, Greg.

We've seen other fiascos first hand that don't put that
outside the realm of reasonable suspicion.


By the end of the interview she was telling me that her report to the court
was gonna be in my favor and against the person who made the accusation.

Her report forced the Fam Ct Judge to throw the charges against me out of
Court.

Oh yeah, and I did the interview without my attny.

Kane believes he insults the people who DESERVE to be insulted.


And you teased because I made a redundant comment?


Sure. ;-))))))) Sure.

It was an "insufferable mess" before I got here.
No one ever got their children back from FC.


That is flat out not true.


Name one person who came to this NG who was given advice that got them their
children back before the summer of 2001.

Why did you say it?


'Cause it's true.

And when the first one did whatsisname chastized the
woman for not fighting "for society!!!!!"


Is this where you preach blind cooperation at all costs??


I never preached blind cooperation.

Try and prove I did, Greg.

And then David and Amy Carl got their five kids back.


And you think you were the only person sending them info??


I never said I was.

And they were sending ME info and having me evaluate it for them!

I thought it was pretty hilarious and idiotic how CPS
got a court order to abscond with their computer to look
for incriminating files, considering it was a
WEB TV terminal, which has NO FILES in it whatsoever!

Did you help them launch any action because of the
aggregious illegal search and seizure?


I was never asked.

Do you think you have in any way stopped that sort of
violation of people's rights?


I think monumental errors like that on the part of CPS or the County Attny
are a gift to be appreciated and exploited to the MAX.

They haven't sued for the terrible FISHING EXPEDITION
this computer grab represents?


I have no idea.

But I'm not making any claims to stroke my ego.


No, you're just waiting for that BIG lawsuit against DSS with that BIG
payoff that's never gonna come.

Chuck got his daughter back the day before her first birthday.


What did whatsisname ever do?

He posted that it was OK to force red pepper into children's mouths as
punishment and claimed that proof had already been posted on the NG.


You badgered him about it constantly. Familiar tactic from you.


Whatsisname wrote that the red pepper punishment was legal when he knew it
wasn't, and people could have lost their children, their jobs, and possibly
could have gone to prison because his intentional misinformation.

Any contribution he could have made to this forum was obscured
by your endless and unprompted whining about your attitude.


Unprompted??? The guy was a LIAR!!!

His advice was DANGEROUS!!!

Nobody Care's about your attitude.
The endless bandwidth wasted dealing with your puke could have
lead to something constructive, aside from your ego.

I posted pleadings. You puked all over it.


YOU asked for comments!!!!

I commented!!!!!

Where are yours? At least I TRIED.


The only thing you tried was to nail the coffin shut on the possibility of
the mother being reunited with her daughter.

And you succeeded.

Are you really that freakin stupid to think something that obvious (your
true intentions) wouldn't be recognized?

You didn't.

After being challenged for months to blah blah..


Nobody cares about your hysterical judgements of who you
decide to vilify. You are as rediculous as Joe McCarthy was.
He died of syphilis. What's your excuse?


Still have that Motion mentality goin for ya, Greg.

For over a year whatsisname claimed the red pepper blah.


This NG is a place where people come to get OUT of trouble snip


Then why to you puke all over it with your incessant inane innuendo?


ooOOoo alliteration!

And I "puked all over" your motion because that was the best it deserved.

Hey, and you didn't mention that Bob SueCPS left too.

Altho he does pop in from time to time ( anonymously)
when you and Dennis can't take the heat.


Heat from you?


I didn't say from me.

Too many people got fed up with the nonsensical ranting and raving.

Now if only you would see the light, Greg.

You're just vomitous.

and a few have had comments in here used in court
to slam them as if they violated privacy laws.


Bull ****, Greg.
Name em.
Name one!


I don't drop names the way you do.
I'm not a pro, but I know that it would not be proper to do.
If you're such an expert, why don't you understand that?


I understand you're a lying AH.

You have done this sort of challenging a lot, apparently
completely ignorant of privacy laws and ethical issues.
You think I or others OWE you an answer to every question.
You're the grand inquisitor, put us on the rack!


If only I could...

Even parents smart enough to keep names and identifying
details out of this forum are inhibited by the CPS eye.


Why on earth would an anonymous person... someone who's
unrecognizable and untraceable... be inhibited?

That's the reason they ARE anonymous... NOT to be inhibited.


Ask Ron! He has the access to certain databases at work.
He thought he was anonymous, that when he posted his info
publicly on the internet, nobody would notice.

(Myself, If they brought something from here in, I
would simply demand that they bring the archive of
the ENTIRE newsgroup into evidence, or strike it
all for lack of contextual setting.)


YOU would demand???


That's a recommendation to help any who might
have that problem in the future.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

If they want to USE THIS, make them BRING IT ALL IN
so that the comments can be put in context and
properly cross examined.

Too complex a concept, Dan?


Not fer a couch potato like yerself, Greg.

You aren't convinced that you being in the bathroom blah.

Why should I be convinced of blah.
When CPS and the court have no legal issue there?

You waste everybody's precious time whining about these
things that the system here says are not issues in this case.


Is everything documented, Greg, or are there some concerns discussed in FAM
Ct BEFORE your girlfriend walks in without you?

Now make yer trolly jump the tracks, Greg.

FOR AN EXAMPLE: FROM ANOTHER CASE
I didn't like that story about the cop who diddled
a 16 year old girl who volunteered at a fire station.

Whether I LIKE that or not, however, is NOT an issue
in that state where legally it was consensual.
If it's not illegal, drop it and move along.

Instead of harassing the cop for doing something you
and I both think was rotten, the way to deal with our
displeasure is to change the laws, not to do an
end-run around the meaning of a law because we don't
like it.

You have been redundant in your smear of me for a long time.


I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks... if only you were a cat!

You have no grasp of facts from which to lecture me.


You have no grasp of reality OR empathy for a little girl and her mother.

Your pretense of helpful attitude is ludicrous in this forum.


ooOOoo!!

You have wasted this bandwidth for a long time.


oooOOOooo!!!

Your redundant smear of me, prompted generally when
I criticize CPS, does not make you appear very good spirited.


If there two things I can't stand it's CPS doin a bad job and people who
maltreat kids.

I am able to agree to disagree. You seem unable to.


You seem to be a child abuser!

Dan


  #7  
Old September 11th 03, 08:52 PM
Greg Hanson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A Plant's Motivation?

And thirty years of being in the business.
And a fine job he did indeed.
Why, kids who didn't even KNOW they were abused by their
parents can now be abused by professionals (CPS).
  #8  
Old September 11th 03, 09:36 PM
LaVonne Carlson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A Plant's Motivation?



Greg Hanson wrote:

LaVonne said
I try very hard not to label people or use disrespectful
names. I'd like to replace "The Plant" with "Fern." Fern,
can you address these questions?


You try not to swear and whitewash like Kane?


Where has Kane sworn and whitewashed?

But you would like Kane's foul questions answered?


Yes, I would like Kane's questions answered. I saw nothing foul about
them. Fern is great at making sweeping accusations and providing no
evidence, and at evading all challenges to her agenda and her posted
propaganda. If her posts are so filled with truth, why does she decline
to answer challenges?

Kane and Dan can't even get a simple fact like the
childs stated age correct, referring to the child many
times as 6 when she was 7 and older throughout this.
I have pointed out the factual error, but they don't care.
They have since repeated the incorrect age repeatedly.


I can see that the discrepancy between the age of 6 and the age of 7
would be a huge determinant in post content.

They have both tried to act like there was some
improper sexuality based only on minimal family
nakedness in the bathroom. One oddity is that Kane
revealed his almost nudist views of nakedness,
admitting he walked around with his adult male
privates exposed to young children.
I am much more conservative than that, yet what little
bit of "in passing" nakedness took place has been
blown up because DAN has some huge personal hangups.


I have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously you have had a
run-in with CPS, though.

Neither Dan nor Kane seems to care that CPS here
has never seen anything sexual to be an issue
in my families case.


I know nothing about your family's case. I am not commenting on
individual cases. I am objecting the the overt animosity which is
resulting from absurd generalizations to the entire child protection
agency. I am also objecting to the idea that because mistakes have been
made, children are no longer worthy of protection.

When they compared me to Father Geoghan, I did
not see you object. Where was your civility then?


I post on alt.parenting.spanking only. There are individuals who
cross-post with alt.support.child-protective-services. This was either
not cross-posted or I missed it. I do have a life and a full time job.
I do not read all posts that appear. Therefore, if this was posted to
alt.parenting.spanking, I did not see it.

Nobody in the ChildAbuse Industry wants to speak up
and demand that false information needs to be corrected.
That would be seen as "in favor of child abusers".


This is what I mean by over generalization. Whenever you use terms like
"nobody" the burden of proof is on you. And it is a claim you cannot
prove, because you cannot possibly know the record of every individual
involved with CPS.

Your temporary ""civilized"" behavior in a forum
that Kane labeled "A Plant's Motivation" is
certainly worthy of question.


You are free to question anything you choose. However, I would like
examples of my uncivilized behavior, since you view my response to Kane
as only temporary civilized. I'll wait for your response.

There are a bunch of people in here who are
trying to defende themselves or our society from
unwarranted attacks from CPS. There is another
bunch in here who seems to want to assert that
all accused are guilty, just because they are
biological parents and they are accused.


I don't post to alt.support.child-protective-services. I'm posting to
alt.parenting.spanking, and yours is a cross-post. Who are the "in
here" people? Be that as it may be, you are over generalizing again.
Yes, I'm sure there are a "bunch of people" who are trying to defend
themselves from CPS allegations. Some of the bunch may be involved in a
legitimate CPS mistake. Others may be objecting for other reasons.
I've met individuals who are defending themselves from what they
consider unwarranted attacks from CPS who have disciplined their
children in ways that resulted in hospitalization over burns and broken
bones.

If the people under attack utter any offensive words,
it should be more understandeable than when the
other major faction insults and whitewashes.


When people are under attack it certainly is understandable. It's a
human reaction. The parent I knew who disciplined her child by forcing
her hands in boiling water for touching the stove was under attack. I
understood that. I also understood that what she did was unacceptable.

Kane is not under attack.


Kane is attacked all the time on the ng for his views. I also know that
Kane does not need my defense. He is perfectly capable of defending
himself!

He is connected with CPS. He first asserted that
he had a close relative who works for CPS. Later we
hear that he has experienced this from the inside,
as a child. The age he presents makes that dubious.
He had already shown that he hates bio-parents.
And he sad on a governing board over CPS.

How do you like those ethics?


Fern has repeatedly asserted that I am connected with CPS, which is a
total lie. I have no idea if Kane is connected to CPS and this is
really irrelevant. I'm responding to his posts regarding the protection
of little children.

My fiance' and I want our family back!


I'm sure you do. I have no idea why you lost them in the first place.
Most people want their children back when they loose them. Some people
should not have their children back because children deserve protection,
and sometimes this is from biological parents.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of this post. You and your fiancé
are obviously very angry because CPS became involved in your lives. I
understand that. I don't know why you lost your children.

I'm not on alt.parenting.spanking to defend Kane. Kane doesn't need
defending. His posts speak for themselves. I'm here to say that
children need protection and CPS is needed, in spite of errors CPS has
made. I'm on alt.parenting.spanking to talk about the abusive nature of
hitting a child in the name of discipline, and the need for laws in this
country to change.

LaVonne



Kane is in here denying the WELL known faults of CPS.
He spews his hatred of bio-parents.
He calls us scum.

His good buddy Dan never publicly corrects him.

Ethics give way to some sick strategy for
newsgroup ""stature"".

But that's what smears are all about.

Keep in mind if you think that a parent is smearing
CPS, that an AGENCY has no civil rights, and that
you know very well that CPS does smear parents.

Like a lot of the caseworkers, Kane sees evil
child beating parents every time he sees a child.

Parents see a fear of caseworkers taking their child
away for reasons that don't satisfy the requirements
of the US Constitution. A basic Ethical contract
in our society.

I have personally talked to about 7 Social Workers, shown
them documentary proof, and asked about the ethical
responsibility of Social Workers to demand that known
false information in a Juvenile Court case be corrected.

Many acknowledge the problem.
None want to speak up about it.

So don't wonder why parents under attack are angry
and see CPS as a giant RACKET, an industry, a fraud, etc.

But look at Kane's posts.
He acts like he is the renaissance man. Some model.
He smears, slurs, demeans, insults, and what he seems
to think is reasoned discourse is just grandiose insult.

My personal view is that Dan and Kane have turned
this newsgroup into an insufferable mess so that
it is of no use to any parent falsely accused.
I asked Dan and Neal to stop fighting in here long ago.
Neal left. (And Dan acted triumphant! What a twit.)
Dan went from one flame war to another in here.
Apparently that is the only way Dan communicates.

The effect on many parents seeking help is that they
feel like CPS is watching anything they say in here,
and a few have had comments in here used in court
to slam them as if they violated privacy laws.
Even parents smart enough to keep names and identifying
details out of this forum are inhibited by the CPS eye.
(Myself, If they brought something from here in, I
would simply demand that they bring the archive of
the ENTIRE newsgroup into evidence, or strike it
all for lack of contextual setting.)

When things got a little sticky for Dan, Kane showed up.
And with the swearing and hostility, I am still not
convinced that Kane is not just Dan's sock puppet.


  #9  
Old September 11th 03, 09:38 PM
LaVonne Carlson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A Plant's Motivation?

Oh, give poor Greg a break. He lost his kids to CPS, or so he says. He needs
to engage in the attack game. He has no answers to your questions. I already
asked them (grin).

LaVonne

Dan Sullivan wrote:

"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
om...
LaVonne said
I try very hard not to label people or use disrespectful
names. I'd like to replace "The Plant" with "Fern." Fern,
can you address these questions?


You try not to swear and whitewash like Kane?
But you would like Kane's foul questions answered?

Any point he makes is fruit of a poison tree.


Why is that?

Kane is so rabidly hateful of bio parents because
he feels his bio parents let him down and his adoptive
parents rescued him.


Where'd you get that info, Greg?

The odd part of this is that
this story doesn't fit well given Kane's supposed age.
If he is indeed middle 40's, he was raised in the
late 50's or through the 60's, before Mondale wrote CAPTA.


When did Kane claim he was in his mid-forties?

His SON may be in his forties...

Back in that era, there basically WAS NO Child Protection.

Yet he acts like he knows how it is, based on his own
experience from 30 plus years ago.


And thirty years of being in the business.

If some questions are to be answered, perhaps these
glaring inconsistencies about Kane should be answered.


Get yer facts sraight first, Greg, and then ask questions.

Momentarily acting civilized does not make the length
and breadth of Kane's intent to smear and insult go away.
He swore a blue streak in ascps for over a year!
Despite his pretense at some sort of intellectual
superiority, his tactics of name calling, swearing and
smear abound in the newsgroup archive.
Where were you with your civilized amelioration when
he posted this large body of work?


Amelioration?

Please explain.

No, you can not apologize FOR Kane.


No one's apologizing for Kane.

He hangs around your neck like an albatross.

Kane tried using the old
"My buddy the psychologist says you're nutz" gambit.

Been done before.


How many times, Greg?

The nature of newsgroups is such that smearing people
is much easier than getting such stuff corrected.


Which stuff?

Even correcting information loses out to sheer volume
of posting, and the determination of a poster to
post incorrect information.

Kane and Dan can't even get a simple fact like the
childs stated age correct, referring to the child many
times as 6 when she was 7 and older throughout this.


Your girlfriend's daughter was never six?

I have pointed out the factual error, but they don't care.
They have since repeated the incorrect age repeatedly.


Brought to you from the Department of Redundancy Department.

They have both tried to act like there was some
improper sexuality based only on minimal family
nakedness in the bathroom. One oddity is that Kane
revealed his almost nudist views of nakedness,
admitting he walked around with his adult male
privates exposed to young children.
I am much more conservative than that, yet what little
bit of "in passing" nakedness took place has been
blown up because DAN has some huge personal hangups.


Yeah, I'm against non-related adult males being in the bathroom every time a
little girl needs to get out of the shower.

I'm against non-related adult males physically forcing little girls into the
shower.

I'm against non-related adult males forcing little girls to take cold
showers as punishment for wetting their pants.

Neither Dan nor Kane seems to care that CPS here
has never seen anything sexual to be an issue
in my families case.


Then why is there info about an earlier accusation of child sexual abuse
from a previous CPS investigation regarding YOU in yer girlfriend's case,
Greg?

When they compared me to Father Geoghan, I did
not see you object. Where was your civility then?


Who compared you to Father Geoghan?

And when?

The ""game"" they're running is a LOT like the way
things worked for Joseph McCarthy when he ran the
HUAC hearings known as the 1950's witch hunts for
communists. If are a moderate of their view and
speak up about their paranoia, expect to be vilified
or at least chastised.


Is that a threat, Greg?

And the witch hunt proceeds.

The crusade to "save kids" gets a strong reaction,
and virtually NO reaction to make sure the
crusading ""child savers"" are not paranoid.

Nobody in the ChildAbuse Industry wants to speak up
and demand that false information needs to be corrected.
That would be seen as "in favor of child abusers".

Your temporary ""civilized"" behavior in a forum
that Kane labeled "A Plant's Motivation" is
certainly worthy of question.

Do you not understand that?

There are a bunch of people in here who are
trying to defende themselves or our society from
unwarranted attacks from CPS. There is another
bunch in here who seems to want to assert that
all accused are guilty, just because they are
biological parents and they are accused.


Greg, you aren't a bioparent and you're the only one being accused of
maltreatment.

Your arguement doesn't hold water.

People under attack and the attackers.

If the people under attack utter any offensive words,
it should be more understandeable than when the
other major faction insults and whitewashes.

Kane is not under attack.

He is connected with CPS. He first asserted that
he had a close relative who works for CPS. Later we
hear that he has experienced this from the inside,
as a child. The age he presents makes that dubious.
He had already shown that he hates bio-parents.
And he sad on a governing board over CPS.

How do you like those ethics?

My fiance' and I want our family back!

Kane is in here denying the WELL known faults of CPS.


Kane loves to see CPS lose.

CPS loses for a very good reason... they deserve to lose.

He spews his hatred of bio-parents.


Not at all. He hates abusers.

He calls us scum.


You ARE scum, Greg.

His good buddy Dan never publicly corrects him.


Many times I've posted my displeasure in the words Kane chooses to use.

Ethics give way to some sick strategy for
newsgroup ""stature"".


You've got that backwards, Greg.

But that's what smears are all about.

Keep in mind if you think that a parent is smearing
CPS, that an AGENCY has no civil rights, and that
you know very well that CPS does smear parents.

Like a lot of the caseworkers, Kane sees evil
child beating parents every time he sees a child.


And you know that how, Greg?

Parents see a fear of caseworkers taking their child
away for reasons that don't satisfy the requirements
of the US Constitution.


"Parents see a fear of caseworkers... ???"

The trolly has left the tracks again, Greg.

A basic Ethical contract
in our society.

I have personally talked to about 7 Social Workers, shown
them documentary proof, and asked about the ethical
responsibility of Social Workers to demand that known
false information in a Juvenile Court case be corrected.


Show yer proof to the psych evaluator and get it into evidence.

Many acknowledge the problem.
None want to speak up about it.

So don't wonder why parents under attack are angry
and see CPS as a giant RACKET, an industry, a fraud, etc.

But look at Kane's posts.
He acts like he is the renaissance man. Some model.
He smears, slurs, demeans, insults, and what he seems
to think is reasoned discourse is just grandiose insult.


Kane believes he insults the people who DESERVE to be insulted.

My personal view is that Dan and Kane have turned
this newsgroup into an insufferable mess so that
it is of no use to any parent falsely accused.


It was an "insufferable mess" before I got here.

No one ever got their children back from FC.

And when the first one did whatsisname chastized the woman for not fighting
"for society!!!!!"

Yeah, all she did was get her three kids back.

And then David and Amy Carl got their five kids back.

Chuck got his daughter back the day before her first birthday.

Quite the "insufferable mess."

I asked Dan and Neal to stop fighting in here long ago.
Neal left.


Hoo-FREAKIN-rayyyyyy!

(And Dan acted triumphant! What a twit.)


Why am I a "twit?"?

What did whatsisname ever do?

He posted that it was OK to force red pepper into children's mouths as
punishment and claimed that proof had already been posted on the NG.

After being challenged for months to cite the facts whatsismane finally
posted a news
story in which a policeman was arrested for committing the same offense and
had lost his job because of it!

Possibly permanently!!!

For over a year whatsisname claimed the red pepper punishment was OK'd by
the courts.

When all along he knew it was a lie.

This NG is a place where people come to get OUT of trouble with CPS... NOT
DEEPER INTO TROUBLE!!!

Hey, and you didn't mention that Bob SueCPS left too.

Altho he does pop in from time to time ( anonymously) when you and Dennis
can't take the heat.

Dan went from one flame war to another in here.
Apparently that is the only way Dan communicates.


I communicate very well, Greg.

The effect on many parents seeking help is that they
feel like CPS is watching anything they say in here,


A few people from CPS have posted here.

and a few have had comments in here used in court
to slam them as if they violated privacy laws.


Bull ****, Greg.

Name em.

Name one!

Even parents smart enough to keep names and identifying
details out of this forum are inhibited by the CPS eye.


Why on earth would an anonymous person... someone who's unrecognizable and
untraceable... be inhibited?

That's the reason they ARE anonymous... NOT to be inhibited.

(Myself, If they brought something from here in, I
would simply demand that they bring the archive of
the ENTIRE newsgroup into evidence, or strike it
all for lack of contextual setting.)


YOU would demand???

You aren't even allowed in the Courtroom, Greg.

When things got a little sticky for Dan, Kane showed up.


What things got sticky for me, Greg?

I haven't lost ONCE to CPS since 1987.

And with the swearing and hostility, I am still not
convinced that Kane is not just Dan's sock puppet.


You aren't convinced that you being in the bathroom everytime a little girl
finished showering, you physically forcing her back into the shower when she
hadn't rinsed off enough, and you forcing her to take cold showers as
punishment for wetting her pants, isn't FREAKIN child maltreatment; WHEN IT
IS!!!

Now be sure you fail to respond to everything I've just posted, Greg, as
usual.

Dan


  #10  
Old September 11th 03, 09:40 PM
LaVonne Carlson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A Plant's Motivation?



Greg Hanson wrote:

Your girlfriend's daughter was never six?

Not during this case.


So the answer to the big issue about lying and children's ages is now
revealed? Too bad I spent so much time and energy responding to an earlier
post.

Good grief!

LaVonne

 




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