What about circumcision and pain relief for baby

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 21:47:13 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


"Carol Ann" wrote in message
nk.net...

: I was referring to plastic surgery for NON reconstructive type stuff.
: Would you do that? Give him a nose job, so he can avoid that surgery
: in the future?

Yes. If I did have a child with a deformity that could be corrected
(not
circumsizion as it is not a deformity), I would seriously consider
having
it
repaired.

You keep saying this, but you are not answering the question at all. We
keep refining the question but it is not getting through to you. If a
child's nose was not attractive but *not deformed*, would you alter it to
make it pretty?

You know, I fail to see the point in so many people ganging up and
altering the question. Carol Ann has stated she would have her child
circ'd and everyone is in a tizzy to try and change her mind. I don't
get why people can't just let someone alone with the choice they've
already made?????

In the end? Because it's not her body to have cut. If she wants to cut HER
body, that's fine. It's very weird to me that women will talk vehemently
about the right to control their own bodies before their babies are born,
but some won't extend that right to the child after the child is born. In
short, the child is a possession, to be altered at the parent's will for any
or no reason. I find this nauseating. Of course, Carol Ann would do what
she would do. But it's all moot in this point, since the child she's
currently carrying is a girl.

--angela

toypup wrote:

I think catheterization increases the incidence of UTI's. Perhaps female
circumcision would help. If it did, I wonder if the pro-c*rcs would have
that done to their daughters.

I wonder what we should do to avoid yeast infections.

"Shena Delian O'Brien" wrote in message
news:EWMCb.537479$Tr4.1469028@attbi_s03...
toypup wrote:

I think catheterization increases the incidence of UTI's. Perhaps
female
circumcision would help. If it did, I wonder if the pro-c*rcs would
have
that done to their daughters.

I wonder what we should do to avoid yeast infections.

clearly, a full-body amputation at birth will spell an end to all manner of
disconcerting human ailments!! there's your answer :-)
kylie

"Nan" wrote in message
news
people will find that hiv rates in particular populations depend on
participants' behaviour & other social & epidemiological factors, not
their
foreskins.
:-)
kylie


I absolutely agree. And the idea that one may be "safe" if circ'd was
raised in the one article, and I'd call that foolhardy, at best.
My reason for posting the article was to dispute the point someone had
made that the UTI factor is nothing but a myth.

yes, quite. your intention was very clear. i just felt i had to remark on
the gist of the articles!

i recall reading something in the paper recently about a "good" follow-on
effect from circumcision (i can't think what it was, though - it was
concerning the spread of some disease or other, probably covered in those
articles anyway). and that article ALSO failed to mention the fact that
ordinary precautions taken in many countries (but sadly not in others) is
the BEST prevention for these things, effectively rendering the
foreskin-or-no-foreskin question utterly irrelevent in the condom-using
countries.... i found it disturbing & somewhat irresponsible.

it was almost as though the authors were just having a bit of fun with an
intellectual exercise, totting up infection rates & relating them to
circumcision rates. it's just bizarre. since they know (or hope) that their
work makes it into the public sphere where people may or may not be
intelligent & have a good grasp of health policy, they should write more
responsibly. if it's just an intellectual exercise for them anyway, why not
check rates of condom use & std infection in circing and un-circing nations
& add that in as well just to add to the statistical fun & games?
kylie

"Dave {Reply Address in.sig}" wrote in message
...
In message , 0tterbot
wrote:

"C&J" wrote in message
. ..

I had my daughters ears pierced the day after bringing her home from
the
hospital. She never even woke up when they pierced her ears. And I
never
had people ask is it a boy or a girl? I have seen that happen to a
couple of friends of mine and one of my girlfriends would get so mad
when
people
would ask. So actually the one friend of mine that always got ****y
when
people would ask that question she went out and got her daughter ears
pierced just for that reason.

what a reasonable and well-thought-out reason to have the baby's ears
pierced!

what would have been your suggestion for my baby boy that everyone
thought
might have been a girl? have him circumcised & pickle the foreskin &
hang
it in a jar around his neck?

jeez, is it just me or can people asking "is it a boy or girl" just be
considered one of those boring things new parents have to deal with,
best
resolved by saying "boy", "girl" or "none of the above"?

You just have to dress the baby in either blue or pink and there won't be
questions. Of course, dressing a boy in pink or a girl in blue will result
in incorrect assumptions but that's part of the fun. Kit was mostly in
gender-neutral clothes and often got called 'she'. I don't think he
minded.

blue seems to have become "gender neutral" as well somewhere along the way!
anyway, if it's not the boy/girl question it's going to be something else.
it still has to be borne. (sigh!!)
kylie

:::::: I was referring to plastic surgery for NON reconstructive type stuff.
:::::: Would you do that? Give him a nose job, so he can avoid that surgery
:::::: in the future?
:::::
::::: Yes. If I did have a child with a deformity that could be corrected
(not
::::: circumsizion as it is not a deformity), I would seriously consider
having it
::::: repaired.
::::
:::: You keep saying this, but you are not answering the question at all.
We
:::: keep refining the question but it is not getting through to you. If a
:::: child's nose was not attractive but *not deformed*, would you alter it
to
:::: make it pretty?
:::
::: I may.
::
:: Oh, for pete's sake, *now* you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
:: Nobody has this sort of elective cosmetic surgery done on an unconsenting
:: minor, and *no* reputable doctor would do it. For good reason.
::
:: --angela

I'm not arguing at all. I think it's ridiculous for the poster to ask such
a question.

~Carol Ann

Dave {Reply Address in.sig} wrote in
:

In message .net, CBI
wrote:

A similar thing happened in England. It was as popular as in the US and
then the national health service stopped paying for it and the rates
plummetted. Chances are something similar will eventually happen in the
US

I wonder when it happened in the UK? I certainly can only remember one boy
with a circ'ed penis in the changing rooms, at the time it just looked
weird because it was so different, the only reason it particularly caught
my eye. I think the boy in question was Jewish as well, so he'd have had
religious reasons for having it done. Apart form that, I don't remember
anyone else being done, not that we actively compared (being 11 or 12 at
the time, not much to see). This is an age group from the early 1960s

I've got vague recollections that when the NHS started, it didn't pay
for circumcisms. So that would have been the late 1940s.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

"Carol Ann" wrote in message
news:_yNCb.341321$Dw6.1129487@attbi_s02...
:::::: I was referring to plastic surgery for NON reconstructive type
stuff.
:::::: Would you do that? Give him a nose job, so he can avoid that
surgery
:::::: in the future?
:::::
::::: Yes. If I did have a child with a deformity that could be corrected
(not
::::: circumsizion as it is not a deformity), I would seriously consider
having it
::::: repaired.
::::
:::: You keep saying this, but you are not answering the question at all.
We
:::: keep refining the question but it is not getting through to you. If
a
:::: child's nose was not attractive but *not deformed*, would you alter
it
to
:::: make it pretty?
:::
::: I may.
::
:: Oh, for pete's sake, *now* you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
:: Nobody has this sort of elective cosmetic surgery done on an
unconsenting
:: minor, and *no* reputable doctor would do it. For good reason.
::
:: --angela

I'm not arguing at all. I think it's ridiculous for the poster to ask
such
a question.

It's not so ridiculous. I don't see the difference between cutting a nose
to make it pretty and cutting a pen*s to do the same.

"Carol Ann" wrote in message
k.net...
: Right. I would have a son circumsized as an infant.
:
: I doubt my brother ever thanked my parents for having it done. I
can't
: imagine any child commenting about it, but I can imagine him
questioning
: why
: it hadn't been done.
:
: I dont understand that reasoning. Why is it easy to assume a boy would
not
: question being circumsized but he WOULD question why he wasn't? My older
boy
: knows he is not like his Daddy. We already told him why, the reasons why
we
: decided for him to remain intact and he, even at the age of 4 was
appalled
: at the thought. Doesn't it seem, if you really think about it, that a
boy
: would be more upset at being altered at birth, without having consent,
than
: being left as nature, god or evolution (whichever you believe) created?
: Especially since more than likely, quite a few of his peers WILL have
their
: foreskins. How will you handle it if he comes to you and asks you why
you
: did it?
:
: Im not trying to sound bitchy at all. Honestly, as long as people do
their
: homework and know their facts and then decide, who am I or anyone else
to
: say you're wrong. I believe most people who do it, dont even think about
it.
: They do it for reasons that can't hold up to truth, i.e, "everyone else
does
: it" (they don't anymore) or because "it's cleaner" (it's not) and to me,
if
: you know the myths aren't true then they become excuses. All because
they
: want their son to be a certain way just to match THEIR preference. Is it
: really worth it to put a child through unnecessary surgery with risks of
: complications just so he can have a perfect (in your eyes) penis?
:
: I just dont get that at ALL and I would love an explanation. But so far,
: everyone I've asked "why did you do it?" (in reply, when asked why we
: didn't) they couldn't come up with anything better than "it's just what
we
: wanted"
:
: Kari

Why does it matter to you what reasoning we use? Why not just say we are
different and be done with it.

I don't really care what your reasons are. They don't influence my
decision. So, why would you care what my reasons are?


~Carol Ann

Carol Ann,

Do sometimes feel as if someone is trying to push their beliefs on you? I
guess I kinda feel like I am at home and I just need to shut the door and
say no thanks But the problem is, is that the people at my door respect
my answer and don't keep coming back knocking on my door. Well not the same
people anyways.

Crystal
38 weeks 1 day and counting!!!
with a boy that will be circumcised because that is what I think is best for
*my* sons.

In article ,
"Dave {Reply Address in.sig}" wrote:

In message , 0tterbot
wrote:

"C&J" wrote in message
. ..

I had my daughters ears pierced the day after bringing her home from the
hospital. She never even woke up when they pierced her ears. And I
never
had people ask is it a boy or a girl? I have seen that happen to a
couple of friends of mine and one of my girlfriends would get so mad when
people
would ask. So actually the one friend of mine that always got ****y when
people would ask that question she went out and got her daughter ears
pierced just for that reason.

what a reasonable and well-thought-out reason to have the baby's ears
pierced!

what would have been your suggestion for my baby boy that everyone thought
might have been a girl? have him circumcised & pickle the foreskin & hang
it in a jar around his neck?

jeez, is it just me or can people asking "is it a boy or girl" just be
considered one of those boring things new parents have to deal with, best
resolved by saying "boy", "girl" or "none of the above"?

You just have to dress the baby in either blue or pink and there won't be
questions. Of course, dressing a boy in pink or a girl in blue will result
in incorrect assumptions but that's part of the fun. Kit was mostly in
gender-neutral clothes and often got called 'she'. I don't think he minded.

Dave

Much to my astonishment, dressing kids in "obviously" boy or girl
clothes doesn't stop the question. I remember being on my way to get my
b/g twin's picture taken in a mall when they were under a year old, and
neither had an appreciable amount of hair; DD was in an incredibly
over-the-top frilly little dress, DS in a short-set with a vest and bow
tie. I was stopped several times (anyone with multiples is -- you get
used to it) and asked "Are they twins?" (yes) and "Are they boys or
girls?" (One of each) and "Which one is the girl?" (Um . . . the one in
the frilly dress.)

(Then there was the guy who asked how I could tell them apart, and
another who insisted that they couldn't be twins unless they were the
same sex.)

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care