Dennis was U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

Dennis H,
I can't resist mentioning some recent developments in other threads.

In one thread Chris has repeatedly posted a link to a sound file
where a mother is spanking her daughter for bad grades. When
asked for background information on that, he just reposts the
same old thing. Heck I've talked to cult members more willing
to answer questions than that.

Fern has posted results of a study by STRAUSS with Field and
supervised by somebody named Fox. The study reveals that even
the non-spankers use "psychological aggression" as do 100% of all
parents. What's funny is that they seem to take the position
that it's all harmful. Apparently they are taking the idea of
changing the world a bit far. If they get verbal and
psychological aggression outlawed, then even non-spankers can
have their kids removed to state care for this ""abuse"".
Even though it is found in 100% of all cases, they seem
dead set on proving that it is harmful.

Could you imagine a kid raised in a situation where nothing
is ever said to them that they don't want to hear?

Bill Mumy played a character like that in an old
Twilight Zone episode where the kid had godlike mental
power to make, destroy, eliminate or fabricate anything
his mind desired. The absolute power of course made
him a little demon. Absent the telekinetic ability,
how much imagination does it take to see what kind
of a brat could result if a child is never told what
they don't want to hear? Never taught "No!" ?

Since there is a division between people who choose
not to spank but don't wish to IMPOSE that on other
parents, and since some anti-spankers might
have problems with the notion that even THEY might
someday be considered Child Abusers if STRAUSS has
his way, I am waiting to see what people from the
non-spanking and anti-spanking camps say about the
possibility of new "social crimes" they might be
guilty of. (Unless they are outside of the 100%)

I haven't had much interaction with LaVonne until
the last few months, but it seems like she keeps
using this tactic of going silent on issues when she
gets proven wrong, like when info was posted that
CPS agencies in all 50 states failed compliance audits.
She had challenged it but after proof was posted,
she never acknowledged it in any way whatsoever.
That seems like a kind of cult like behavior to me.
She also accused me of computer crime, breaking
into her e-mail. The University of Minnesota
Board of Regents may have to ""discipline""
LaVonne soon for that. She used her U e-mail
to libel/slander me saying she wouldn't
"let me off the hook" for what is computer crime.
(When in fact my e-mail was getting flooded
with anonymous filler e-mails as well.)

Her pig-headedness, even when one of her allies
Kane, tells her she's wrong on something, is obvious.
It will be her undoing on this libel/slander thing.

Don't let these people push you to swear in public.
You really don't want to in any way match Kane's swearing.
He is his own worst enemy.

I think I agree with you that emotional abuse can
be very harmful, however, I truly believe that CPS
agencies are utterly and completely unable to muster
any competency in this area over a population other
then the select few they seek to vilify.
CPS incompetence in this area would cause great harm.
On the bright side, though, the American Gulag side
of this might cause their complete downfall.
I just wouldn't want to pay that price to get rid of them.

If CPS agencies continue to progress into accusing
parents of emotional abuse, they might indeed
regret the precident this might open up regarding
emotional abuse of removals, STATE CARE, or
caseworker lies, etc. It might not happen right
away, but I would expect the emotional abuse
gambit would eventually backfire on them terribly.

In my families' case they tried to claim certain
things were traumatic for the child, but they
have never taken the child to a psychologist.
It's just not logical.

To turn them loose playing amateur psychology with
kids en masse would very likely lead to more HARM
than good. I question how many caseworkers could
qualify as sane enough to judge others psyche, even
if they DID have credentials, which they don't.

If the government spent 200 billion dollars a year,
put a caseworker on every corner, and removed
a million kids on anything vaguely suspicious,
Child Abuse would persist, even if you DON'T
count the excessive removals as Child Abuse
and if you don't count abuses in State Care.

Dennis H wrote
Non spanking is a fairly recent development pushed forth
by psychologists.. The recent phenomena of never using
negative reinforcement out of fear of damaging the poor
child's psyche has resulted in more emotionally damaged
children than ever in history. They cannot deal with
criticism because of the spoon fed nonsense, and we wind
up with more and more Columbine type situations from
these disturbed individuals. YOU are doing more damage
than the occassional spanker who teaches his children
hurtful behavior can have consequences.

This was very well put. - Greg in Iowa

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 05:09:12 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:


"Gerald Alborn" wrote in message
...
Dennis Hancock wrote:

"Gerald Alborn" wrote in message
...
Dennis Hancock wrote:

DUH... Kane's assertions are so lame and weak that they
defeat
themselves.

Thank you for further demonstrating that you can provide no
basis for
what
you've asserted.


And thank you for showing that you accept Kane's nonsense with
absolutely no
question.

Tell me Dennis, what words of Kane's do you regard as nonsense? Ah,
don't
tell
me. You can't post them but would like me to go into google and try
to
find them
myself. :-) :-) :-) :-)

You make a whole lot of statements without ever clarifying what it
is
you're
talking about. I guess even you know that you're in a position
where
that's your
only option.


Damn Gerald, how many times must I QUOTE his post and post DIRECTLY
under
the EXACT words I consider nonsense.

On the contrary, Dennis the Liar, you rarely actually quoted me, and
you made claims about things I never said. Most of your claims of my
words you claim were nonsense were nothing but your empty
declarations.

What pleasure do you get from attempting to keep asking the same lame
questions, and keep believing every word Kane posts as the absolute
truth?

You are lying right there. You have NO way to know if someone believes
every word I post...that would be impossible in any case. And there is
no such thing as the "absolute truth."

Your posts are nothing but blabbering hyperbole because you cannot
morally defend hitting children and calling it spanking and you know
it.

Are you that truly that stupid and gullible, or are you just a parrot
for
Kane,

Since Alborn was in the ng long before I, making the claims about
spanking that he does, how could he be parroting me?

attempting to somehow try to discredit any opposing viewpoint by
asking repeatedly the same things over and over again (interestingly
enough,
the same thing kane keeps doing as well).

What is he asking you repeatedly over and over? And why shouldn't he
given that you haven't actually answered anything he's asked but
rather gone off trying to distract by discrediting him by discrediting
me?

Try actually answering the questions asked, Dennis.

If you haven't read the posts, why should I bother to go back
and
repost
them for your benefit?

Well you shouldn't, actually. Aside from the fact that you
can't
repost
what
isn't there, it helps to show everyone what your level of
integrity
is.
Let's
just leave it at that.

DUH.. I can't repost what isn't there.. apparently you cannot read,
or have
some lack of comprhension since I have used quoting his posts
directly as a
means of posting my rebuttal to his lame nonsense.

Excuse me. You are saying in the same sentence that something isn't
there that you have quoted directly. How can that be?

You haven't quoted me directly except rarely.



For someone who hasn't bothered to go back and read the posts..
YOU can
claim they aren't there? LOL.. You sure your not Kane in drag?

Specifically what posts are you referring to? You've already
demonstrated
that
you can't generally post more than two sentences without either
stretching
the
truth way out of whack or outright lying.

*I* can't post more than two sentences without stretching the truth
or
outright lying?

Well, I suppose if you work at it you can get to a third sentence
before lying. For instance, below you have, after just one sentence
above this, began lying.

WHERE ARE MY LIES?

Sentence two above could be construed as the truth, but it's a stupid
sentence as the lie is right below her. YOUR NEXT sentence.

Kane has posted nothing but lies,

I have done no such thing. You are lying. In fact by simple rules of
logic you are a liar by that statement. It's nearly impossible to post
nothing but lies in posts as long as mine to you.

and
stretch truth

For instance, what "truth" have I stretched? I have posted referrences
to others work, I have posted results that I have obtained, and you
have NO WAY IN HELL to know whether I'm telling the truth or not about
my own experiences, and posting something others learned can't be
lying, by definition. It's simply posting information I've found.

You haven't challenged the findings, for instance, with anything, in
the case of the Embry study, but trying to discredit the researcher, a
man with a history of academic research that stretches for years and
has been used by industry (traffic control) to great results.

No, Dennis, the truth is YOU are the liar.

and flip flopped back and forth,

Give us one example of my flip flopping back and forth. You claimed it
based on my stating (and I have many years of others work backing me
up) that a child below a certain age cannot understand abstractions of
cause and effect in statements adult caregiver make to the child BUT I
SPEAK TO THE CHILD ABOUT WHAT I AM DOING AND INTEND SO THAT THEY
LATTER WILL HAVE THE INFORMATION IN MEMORY WHEN THEY CAN USE IT.

That isn't flip flopping. It's what parents naturally do all the time.
I just do it with deliberation, rather than willy nilly, because I
understand it.

and my calling him a liar is
stretching the truth or outright lies?

Absolutely. You have lied repeatedly about me by posting that I have
made claims I have not.

Grow up asshole and smell the coffee
brewing.

He did long ago I believe. He went from being a admitted child abuser
(though of course he had not intended to do so) to a gentle
non-punitive father with great success. It appears you hate that and
you hate him for it, or you wouldn't curse and call him filthy names.

YOu want some asshole like Kane TELLING you how to raise your
kids,

Alborn didn't even know me when he made that change for himself. Are
you stupid or lying again? Don't you read and remember? He already
told you he had been in this ng longer than me.

and accusing people of being abusers because they don't follow his
lame assed ideology, fine, go for it.

The problem, Dennis, isn't that he calls you an abuser. It's that you
are unaware of your impact on your children and an abuser by default
not intent. The issue is how does one go about waking up someone that
abuses and now so badly needs to rationalize it by defending it as
something other than abuse.

But shut the **** up and keep it to yourself as you, like kane are
now on
ignore for nonsensical bull****.

You can't shut us up, Dennis, and you know it.

What we have going for us, and it infuriates folks like you that were
indoctrinated against your will into the spanking mindset, is the deep
down lies the carefully hidden memory of the the shock and often rage
you felt when you were first hit by your completely trusted parent.

When we talk about spanking as we do it starts to activate that memory
and you are forced to either visit that horrendous betrayal and pain
(and if you were a spanker...to visit what you have done to your own
children) and that is very hard to do.

I admire Alborn, and I admire parents I've worked with since 1976,
that have made that hard, painful decision to face both what happened
to them and what they might have done to others.

That's total ****ing nonsense. They are all googled
for your browing

And you have a bridge for sale too, right?

and you would surely buy it from your hero kane, simple because he
'tells'
you how great it is.

Isn't it interesting that Alborn, as he has told you very clearly and
concisely, that he freely, with no influence from me, someone he had
not met, made the decision to "buy" non-punitive parenting himself.

Now just who is either neurotically suppressing that information
himself or is a liar, Dennis, Alborn, I, or YOU?


FYI, I searched google for Kane's words stating that he was a
retired
Air
Force
Colonel, as you claimed. Google shows no record of him ever
saying
such a
thing.
It's quite clear why you don't want to pull up googled posts to
substantiate
your statements.

bull****, again you show a lack of comprehsion as I clearly stated
that
others in here have accused him of being that person,

Which proves I said I was a retired Air Force colonel how again?

You are taking a claim from a known child abuser and gigolo, and
artful bender of the truth...admitted by himself in other ngs.....and
using that to claim I said something I didn't.

And though I am not Frank Andrews I googled him and HE never said he
was an Air Force colonel either...not even mentioned the USAF in any
post of his.

So were do YOU get off claim I said any such thing?

whom he claims is
someone else (sound familiar), who is posting under his name the same
bull**** trying to discredit him.

Frank Andrews took a post of mine, pasted it into a message and resent
it after cancelling it out of USENET...if you know how to messages can
be deleted from the archives...even another person's message...to
harrass me.

If you'd have bothered to check, instead of blindly rushing off to
believe anything you could possibly find to discredit me instead of
actually dealing with the spanking issue, you'd have found a two post
exchange between Frank and I (that's not his real name by the way, if
he is who I believe he is...and old opponent of mine) that clarified
our relationship.

And his posting my post as his to discredit me.

UNbelievable how stupid and lame some people can be.

Yes, you ARE something of a wonder, now aren't you.

And how attacking they
can be

You aren't attacking?

If you simply go back and read your posts...or better, have someone
else read them and report to you, you'll find you are the most vicious
of attackers yourself.

simply because you disagree with someone they seem to have a huge
admiration for.

I do not know if Alborn has any admiration for me at all. I haven't
seen anything in his posts that would suggest it except calling you on
your lies about me and happening to have a similar belief about
spanking to my belief.

I do though especially admire him as I did not come to my belief as a
spanker changing his mind. I had less to overcome than Alborn, hence I
admire him greatly. It is not easy to face the truth about spanking,
as relates to one's own parents and more especially if one has used
spanking on one's own children.

No THAT is courage.

You apparently didn't google the challenges to Kane's background
by
several
others who seemed quite convinced he was this same person using
another
name, who had made that claim. OR his nonsensical denials that
someone
was
reposting under his name in other newsgroups to attempt to
discredit
him.

Brilliant Dennis. When caught in an outright lie, try to change the
focus
in
another direction in the hopes that everyone will forget. Surely no
one
will
notice...


LOL... I aint the asshole trying to change the focus dude..

And that, Dennis, is a bald faced lie that anyone can see simply by
reading the few lines attributed to you and Alborn above.

Or you really are neurotic as hell.

Grow up and learn to realize
when your being bull****ted by a bull****ter kiddo.

I seem to be doing that quite well, thank you.

-Jerry-

Not very well, Wonder how many bridges kane has sold you in the
past?

We do not know each other except as I have met him in this ng he was
in long before me. In fact we didn't exchange any posts for some time
as we watched each other deal with bullying child abusers in this ng.

Enjoy your blinded life dude..

Let me see now. He woke up and changed for what he reports as the
better for himself and his children, and you continue to defend pain
and humiliation parenting, and HE is blind?

Interesting take on things.


Apparently not.

Then where's the post where Kane claimed to be a retired Air Force
Colonel, as
you insisted he did? Why should we move to other falsehoods you've
created. One
is enough to demonstrate the real Dennis...


-Jerry-



I think Jerry has called it pretty well.

So your task, unless you wish to be known in these ngs for the strange
ranting babbler you appear to be, is to show where I claimed, or Frank
Andrews, who you say I am by the claims of others, claimed to be a
retired USAF retired colonel.

Oh and by the way, if you have a spare minute and wish to prove your
discrediting of me you might want to post a few samples of my lies and
flip flops.

So far you have crabwalked everytime I or Jerry Alborn have asked you
to do so. That old, "google it yourself" works great when there IS
something to google, but is a dead giveaway the author is lying when
there ISN'T....so YOU google it bubba, YOU prove Jerry or I wrong.

Neither we or you, as you said, can't google on what is not there.
Seems you've already admitted that you are a liar.

Thanks bunches,

Kane

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 05:10:56 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:

Don't bother doan, Jerry, like his alter ego kane has been thrown
into the
iggy bin for now.

The escape hatch for liars and the stupid that are caught at their
nonsense.

He apparently wants ME to prove kane's allegations wrong,

That would be the point of debate on an issue, now wouldn't it?

which many have
done continually,

Nonsense. Post some of the proof my allegations are wrong? I have
thousands of points of information that prove I am right.

and wants me to repost what I dispute,

And you refused in the classic crabwalk way, by insisting HE could
find it, when we know of course he couldn't because you didn't.

even after using
direct quotes of Kane's posts when I post.

You did no such thing. You refused to answer my questions and claims
with anything but blathering denial and hyperbolic name calling. You
rarely quoted me, and in fact lied about me by quoting lies and
speculations of OTHER people about me.

Amazing how blind and stupid some people are.

I'm not amazed at all by the neurotic defense mechanisisms of those
that cannot face the truth of the brutality visited on them that they
turn and visit upon their own children, and then have to defend.

That is exactly how blind and stupid some people are.

Truly unbelievable that they
manage to survive in this world.

I wonder how that is.

I notice many fewer of us are in jails, many fewer are mentally ill.

I would say it has something to do with either being raised so that we
do NOT have the neurotic self protective needs you do, or that we
struggled through the brutality of being hit by our parents and
bravely chose another path so our own children would not have to have
the same thing happen to them.


"Doan" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Gerald Alborn wrote:

Dennis Hancock wrote:

"Gerald Alborn" wrote in message
...
Dennis Hancock wrote:

DUH... Kane's assertions are so lame and weak that they
defeat
themselves.

Thank you for further demonstrating that you can provide no
basis
for what
you've asserted.


And thank you for showing that you accept Kane's nonsense with
absolutely no
question.

Tell me Dennis, what words of Kane's do you regard as nonsense?
Ah,
don't tell
me. You can't post them but would like me to go into google and
try to
find them
myself. :-) :-) :-) :-)

I will be glad to google them for you, Gerald. Just say the word.
:-)

Doan

Go for it, Doan.

Kane

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 05:13:27 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:

More nonsense from Gerald.... he considers a parent's RESPONSIBILITY
to
teach, control and discipline their child as forcing their will upon
someone.. LOL..

You are laughing so loudly you cannot hear your own brain rattling,
but it's more than apparent you choose to lie about, or creatively
misunderstand and ignore what he did say.

He didn't say what you claim, only that he chose a different method to
execute that very responsibility you babble about, and know so little
of.

He reports that he found out how to teach, control and discipline his
children. All without force, pain, and humiliation. And then he did
it.

Amazing that a person can even begin to argue that EVERYONE who
attempts to
discipline their own children is an abusive jerk who is imposing
their will
on them.

That is NOT what he said, and you know it, Dennis. He made if very
clear he was discussing force. I can't recall if he used the words
"abusive jerk," and unable to find them in googling. Possibly you can
bring them up for us.

Though I will readily admit that you are sounding very much like an
abusive jerk yourself.

Not worth the bother

Then what do you go on to say.........
"
as he is either a liar, a teenager who has
never had kids, or a complete idiot.
?"

You seem to be very bothered. I notice that after you claimed to have
filtered us you then went on, in your cowardly fashion, to excorate
both Alborn and myself.

You effectively created a forum you would not have to be held
accountable by your opponent in. Hardly very original, very clever,
and thus, very cowardly.

Almost turned my stomach to read the nonsense below

Now that you do not have to read his replies, by filtering him out,
you can say anything you wish, can you not?

On the other hand, I think it's worth another read so I'll leave it
unsnipped and attributed. It's rather insightful.

Oh, and of course you are reading this...after filtering me...R R R

So you of course can't help but embarrass yourself and show yourself
to be the morally weak little cretin you apparently are if you DO
answer me.

That's the problem with taking the cowardly liar's way out, Dennis.

While you don't have to answer anything you don't want to after
claiming you filtered the other person you can't answer anything they
say either...RRRRR.

What a maroon.

Kane

"Gerald Alborn" wrote in message
...
Dennis Hancock wrote:

I don't even have a problem with your decision to use other
methods on
your
children, and in fact have stated many times that most parents do
attempt
many different methods and find what works for THEIR child.

Works for their child? You mean what "works for them."

I seem to recall asking you what you mean by "works." I never did
see an
answer.

Lot's of things may "work" if compliance to your every demand, or
blind
obedience is your only objective. Is that your only concern? Now
that
you're the
adult, do you mean by "works," "finally getting your way with
others -
namely
children?" I have greater concern for children's healthy emotional
development
than what "works" to make life easier for parents. Why is this so
far
beyond
your grasp?

and quite
often, use different methods for different siblins.

Why do so many, like you, decide that abuse works, and convince
yourself
that it
isn't really abuse?

My whole problem with Kane is that he is attempting to portray
ANYONE
who
uses any sort of physical discipline on their children as a
monster who
abuses children,

How are you able to accept that physical discipline is not
abuse? What
logic
do you use to convince yourself that it's okay to hurt children in
ways
that are
illegal to use on adults? Do you honestly believe there is no
affect from
punitively inflicted pain on children, upon their young developing
emotions?

and without that, his logic falls apart, which is why he
refuses to accept any definitions given to him.

You mean definitions you create to give yourself the illusion that
hurting
young
children is somehow good and has no damaging effects?

He cannot understand that many parents use different levels of
both
positive
and negative reinforcement on their children until they hopefully
come
up
with what works. I tire of his nonsense and after reading this
group of
posts, will most assuredly filter his name out of my reading list
and
let
him continue his rantings and ravings.

You may get that way with me, too. There are real reasons (rooted
in your
own
painful childhood) why you want to deny the truth about the
harmfulness of
hurting children in the name of disciple. It's simply too painful
to bear.
Having people point your head at the truth and make you see it must
simply
be
too much of an overload.

-Jerry-

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 05:17:37 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:

Doan you can't reach him. He, like Kane is stuck in their own self
righeousness hell which they made for themselves.

Sounds like ol` Dennis is desparate for some validation Doan. Yours,
of course, would be so welcome now. Well, until Dennis figures out
what a self righteous little creep YOU are...wait, that may be just
what he is looking for, a soul mate. R R R R

The ONLY way their 'truth' has any validity is by villifying every
other
opinion and portraying anyone who disagrees with them as evil or
abusive.

Odd, there was no vilifying from this side of the issue until after
your refused the debate and started namecalling and attacking the
poster...and even now we are just pointing out what a low life scum
you've proven yourself to be.

They are too stupid to understand that their methods are MUCH MORE
abusive

Ask my kids if they were.

than what most consider discipline and teaching

You are assuming that others want to humilate and hurt children as
much as you do and will find a way, even if they have to leave out cp,
aren't you?

because it can cause more
emotional distress on a child because they feel the parent' doesn't
care
enough to set limits and teach their children.

What makes you think that Alborn, or myself, or other parents that
chose not to use CP do not set and teach limits? We have far more
powerful long lasting tools than pain and humiliation.

Oh yeah, they TRY to say
they set limits,

No, we say it. Because it's true. And it works. Wonderfully. Embry
found it out. Did you know that Embry believed in punitive methods for
keeping children from running toward traffic until he saw with his own
eyes that it didn't work as well as simple nonpainful,
(psychologically or physically) methods worked far better?

but limits without any logical reinforcement are as good as
none at all.

You seem to not know what you are talking about...that is you do not
know what a range of logical reinforcement exists outside of pain and
punishment.

Now that is the question for us. How do we get through to those that
were raised in such a way as they believe in, and deny other means,
pain and punishment as a proper and more effective teaching tool than
things like talking, redirecting, substituting, deliberate conscience
building by empathy, mutual problem solving, questioning, and
modifying the environment?

It's quite some puzzle.

And here's one for you: What if we are right and you are wrong?

Now folks, watch the smoke rise from Dennis' scalp and spout out of
his ears.

"Doan" wrote in message
...

snip........

The problem is people like you who think that that they have the
"truth".
But when pressed, it is nothing more than opinion. Tell me, Jerry,
is
your childhood that "painful"???

Doan

It may have been, Doan. If so, he apparently over came that, while you
haven't and still defend parent's rights to abuse their children.

Thing about it.

Kane

"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
om...
Dennis H,
I can't resist mentioning some recent developments in other threads.

In one thread Chris has repeatedly posted a link to a sound file
where a mother is spanking her daughter for bad grades. When
asked for background information on that, he just reposts the
same old thing. Heck I've talked to cult members more willing
to answer questions than that.

Fern has posted results of a study by STRAUSS with Field and
supervised by somebody named Fox. The study reveals that even
the non-spankers use "psychological aggression" as do 100% of all
parents. What's funny is that they seem to take the position
that it's all harmful. Apparently they are taking the idea of
changing the world a bit far. If they get verbal and
psychological aggression outlawed, then even non-spankers can
have their kids removed to state care for this ""abuse"".
Even though it is found in 100% of all cases, they seem
dead set on proving that it is harmful.

Very true Greg, and the problem is that these people don't realize that
their 'non-violent' approach can sometimes do more harm than good. They
take a one size fits all approach, yet they fail to recognize the dangers of
cps using emotional abuse against them.

Children want and need guidelines, and while they say they set limits,
limits without enforcement tend to come across as no limit at all, and leads
the child to feel that they are not loved. They want to cite new 'studies'
and ignore age old and time proven studies, that most conscionable parents
find out thru trial and error with their own children.


Could you imagine a kid raised in a situation where nothing
is ever said to them that they don't want to hear?

Bill Mumy played a character like that in an old
Twilight Zone episode where the kid had godlike mental
power to make, destroy, eliminate or fabricate anything
his mind desired. The absolute power of course made
him a little demon. Absent the telekinetic ability,
how much imagination does it take to see what kind
of a brat could result if a child is never told what
they don't want to hear? Never taught "No!" ?

Actually, I've seen the results of few children raised in this manner,
which is why I could not sit idly by, and watch people attempt to push
nonsense upon us and attempt lame justification by villifying those who
actually CARE enough about their children to teach them right from wrong,
and to teach them about consequences of their own actions.

Since there is a division between people who choose
not to spank but don't wish to IMPOSE that on other
parents, and since some anti-spankers might
have problems with the notion that even THEY might
someday be considered Child Abusers if STRAUSS has
his way, I am waiting to see what people from the
non-spanking and anti-spanking camps say about the
possibility of new "social crimes" they might be
guilty of. (Unless they are outside of the 100%)

Ahh.. and it's coming quite soon believe me. In California recently, they
attempted to push legislation through whereby ANY attempt at 'isolating' a
child would be classified as 'child abuse'. Amazing huh? Simply sending a
child to his room or putting them on time out would cause even some of the
most ardent non spankers to be classified as child abusers under the law.

While they try to push THEIR agenda on us, they fail to realize that they
too are going to be classified under the same false labels they attempt to
put everyone else under who disagrees with them.


I haven't had much interaction with LaVonne until
the last few months, but it seems like she keeps
using this tactic of going silent on issues when she
gets proven wrong, like when info was posted that
CPS agencies in all 50 states failed compliance audits.
She had challenged it but after proof was posted,
she never acknowledged it in any way whatsoever.
That seems like a kind of cult like behavior to me.
She also accused me of computer crime, breaking
into her e-mail. The University of Minnesota
Board of Regents may have to ""discipline""
LaVonne soon for that. She used her U e-mail
to libel/slander me saying she wouldn't
"let me off the hook" for what is computer crime.
(When in fact my e-mail was getting flooded
with anonymous filler e-mails as well.)

Ahh, the old 'computer crime' gambit. Works well in scaring someone away
who isn't familiar enough with how difficult it is to get something like
that prosecuted, even if they could prove it. Unless of course, you are a
multinational corporation that can command such respect as to be able to
show huge damages.




Her pig-headedness, even when one of her allies
Kane, tells her she's wrong on something, is obvious.
It will be her undoing on this libel/slander thing.

Don't let these people push you to swear in public.
You really don't want to in any way match Kane's swearing.
He is his own worst enemy.

Well, I swear in public anyway grin.. and I am not dissuaded to stooping
to someone's level when they attempt blatant character assassination simply
because one refuses to accept their nonsense as truth.


I think I agree with you that emotional abuse can
be very harmful, however, I truly believe that CPS
agencies are utterly and completely unable to muster
any competency in this area over a population other
then the select few they seek to vilify.
CPS incompetence in this area would cause great harm.
On the bright side, though, the American Gulag side
of this might cause their complete downfall.
I just wouldn't want to pay that price to get rid of them.

If CPS agencies continue to progress into accusing
parents of emotional abuse, they might indeed
regret the precident this might open up regarding
emotional abuse of removals, STATE CARE, or
caseworker lies, etc. It might not happen right
away, but I would expect the emotional abuse
gambit would eventually backfire on them terribly.

Yes, it's quite a difficult situation. I have had experience with children,
my own nephew for one of several, who have suffered severe emotional abuse,
yet it is almost impossible to prove. Making it easier for cps to use it,
and they always tend to overdo things, is not the answer.

In my families' case they tried to claim certain
things were traumatic for the child, but they
have never taken the child to a psychologist.
It's just not logical.

To turn them loose playing amateur psychology with
kids en masse would very likely lead to more HARM
than good. I question how many caseworkers could
qualify as sane enough to judge others psyche, even
if they DID have credentials, which they don't.

Kinda like the couple of amateur psychologists we have in here attempting to
take the high moral ground for being non physical with their children, by
attempting to portray anyone and everyone who uses any possible physical
means as a monster or buser.


If the government spent 200 billion dollars a year,
put a caseworker on every corner, and removed
a million kids on anything vaguely suspicious,
Child Abuse would persist, even if you DON'T
count the excessive removals as Child Abuse
and if you don't count abuses in State Care.

Dennis H wrote
Non spanking is a fairly recent development pushed forth
by psychologists.. The recent phenomena of never using
negative reinforcement out of fear of damaging the poor
child's psyche has resulted in more emotionally damaged
children than ever in history. They cannot deal with
criticism because of the spoon fed nonsense, and we wind
up with more and more Columbine type situations from
these disturbed individuals. YOU are doing more damage
than the occassional spanker who teaches his children
hurtful behavior can have consequences.

This was very well put. - Greg in Iowa