Parental Alienation Syndrome

I've been reading quite a bit about Parental Alienation Syndrome
lately due to a response I got to an earlier post. Some people says
it's a real condition while others have said it's just a ploy used by
abusive parents to try to gain custody.

The gist of it seems to be a situation exactly like the one I'm
experiencing right now. I was never married to my daughter's mother.
Because of her fear of going to court, I have never filed for court
ordered parenting time. I figured that as long as I could see my
daughter, there was no sense in pushing it.

With my 6 year old daughter seeming to become hostile to seeing me
literally overnight, I have a real problem on my hands. From
everything I've read about PAS, it seems I have to act very quickly to
save the relationship between my daughter and myself. If I take the
mother to court she is SURE to go off the deep end. I fear that she
will take it out on my daughter and make her life a living hell. She
will also be looking to get even with me. She has a history of making
allegations of sexual abuse against both herself and our daughter.

I'm also concerned about the possibility that maybe the reason for my
daughters behavior is due to something else. The mother is taking her
to see an 'art therapist'. What if I'm wrong about the PAS? Won't
getting what seems like an attack out of the blue be just as harmful?

A brief summary of the facts in my case- We are in Michigan. The
mother has never held a steady job due to some kind of emotional
disorder. She collects disability for her condition. I work 6 nights a
week from 3PM until about midnight so the only day I can see her all
day is Sunday. On other days, my mother is home so she would have
someone here to watch her while I was at work.

TIA

messy....

There is no "right" answer as to how to proceed legally. Just try to
sort through the options and after careful consideration do what seems
best to you.

As far as with your daughter, probably you know that whatever is going
on is really difficult for her. Children likely are going to be
erratic.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by sudden hostility to you. Angry?
Impatient? Frustrated? or saying that she doesn't want to spend time
with you.

IMO you need to walk a line where you do give her space and allow her
to express her feelings and show her that what she says and thinks is
important to you. At the same time IMO you need to make it clear that
she is far too important to you for you to not see her regularly. (Not
sure if that is what came up over "hostility".)

Divorced parents nearly always end up complaining, bitching, telling
the child what an ass the other parent is. My own parents did that with
me which puts the child in such an awkward place. My party line with my
son always was that his mother and I don't get along very well (which
is completely obvious) but that as much as possible it will help him
not to choose sides. I think that helped him a little. In time, I
believe children do sort out what's what but of course it takes time.

I jumped to talking about your relationship with your daughter because
I think that is most critical.

The legal side is very slippery. Parental alienation syndrome yes,
these days names are slapped on everything, many professionals will
acknowledge the term. (I have a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology.) But
trying to prove it is going to be very costly and I doubt it will be
worth it in terms of $ or emotional strain.

You describe your daughter's mother as unstable (to a degree) but more
or less probably an adequate mother (at least there don't seem to be
clear grounds to try to get sole custody).

Your last paragraph you jumped over to your Mother....so I'm guessing
you are considering sole custody? Based on what you've posted so far I
think that is probably unlikely...if I were deciding what to do I'd aim
for joint physical custody though even that is a huge reach.

The courts will want to know why now? What is suddenly different? And
saying your daughter suddenly is hostile isn't good enough.

What you didn't mention in your post (I know the whole thing is so
emotional) is why you are considering legal action now. I mean is her
mother suggesting you change your visitation pattern?

btw, I'm not an attorney...just a rather cynical, moderately bitter 14
year NCP.

Don

On 18 Oct 2006 04:33:11 -0700, wrote:

messy....

There is no "right" answer as to how to proceed legally. Just try to
sort through the options and after careful consideration do what seems
best to you.

Everyway I proceed seems like it could have some negative aspects to
it.

As far as with your daughter, probably you know that whatever is going
on is really difficult for her. Children likely are going to be
erratic.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by sudden hostility to you. Angry?
Impatient? Frustrated? or saying that she doesn't want to spend time
with you.

She went from emailing me about how happy she was that I was coming
over that morning to having a fit as if she was very angry by the time
I got to her mothers house. I thought she was having a bad day so I
left. On the next visit 2 weeks later she started screaming and crying
as I came up the porch stairs.I heard her mother say to our child's
grandmother "But mom, she promised she wouldn't do this!". Once
inside, she threw a huge fit. She told me she didn't want me to be her
dad and she wished I was dead. After her mother left (her grandmother
and I just waited until her fit was over) she calmed down after about
15 minutes then acted almost like nothing was wrong. While she was
crying and screaming I asked her why she was mad and why she felt that
way. All she kept saying was she doesn't know. It was as if someone
had flipped a switch. It ended up with the 3 of us going to a park and
out to get something to eat. At the park, she had me hold her up while
she climbed on a climbing wall so it's not like she gets freaked by me
touching her or anything like that. When we got back to the house I
told the grandmother I was going to go home and my daughter came up on
her own to give me a hug goodbye. The whole thing is very confusing to
me and I'm sure it's confusing to my daughter.

IMO you need to walk a line where you do give her space and allow her
to express her feelings and show her that what she says and thinks is
important to you. At the same time IMO you need to make it clear that
she is far too important to you for you to not see her regularly. (Not
sure if that is what came up over "hostility".)

That's pretty much what I tried to do. I explained to her that I was
not leaving no matter what she did.

Divorced parents nearly always end up complaining, bitching, telling
the child what an ass the other parent is. My own parents did that with
me which puts the child in such an awkward place. My party line with my
son always was that his mother and I don't get along very well (which
is completely obvious) but that as much as possible it will help him
not to choose sides. I think that helped him a little. In time, I
believe children do sort out what's what but of course it takes time.

I've never been able to see my daughter without the mother or
grandmother present. Since the mother and I were never married she
pretty much calls the shots as to when I get to see her.

I jumped to talking about your relationship with your daughter because
I think that is most critical.

The legal side is very slippery. Parental alienation syndrome yes,
these days names are slapped on everything, many professionals will
acknowledge the term. (I have a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology.) But
trying to prove it is going to be very costly and I doubt it will be
worth it in terms of $ or emotional strain.

You describe your daughter's mother as unstable (to a degree) but more
or less probably an adequate mother (at least there don't seem to be
clear grounds to try to get sole custody).

Your last paragraph you jumped over to your Mother....so I'm guessing
you are considering sole custody? Based on what you've posted so far I
think that is probably unlikely...if I were deciding what to do I'd aim
for joint physical custody though even that is a huge reach.

The courts will want to know why now? What is suddenly different? And
saying your daughter suddenly is hostile isn't good enough.

I have no interest in gaining sole custody. I think that my daughter
would be really harmed by being pulled away from her mother like that.
What I do want is possibly shared legal custody and some guaranteed
time that I can be alone with my daughter. I want to be able to take
her on vacations and to get to know my side of the family. I only
mentioned my mother in terms of not having to hire an outside
babysitter to watch her during visits to my house. Until I find a
different job, I have to work 6 nights a week.

What you didn't mention in your post (I know the whole thing is so
emotional) is why you are considering legal action now. I mean is her
mother suggesting you change your visitation pattern?

The mother has not said anything to me about the visitation changing
at all. Through friends of hers, I've been told that she tells our
daughter that she has to see me or I'll take her to court. The last
time I mentioned court she scared my daughter so bad that she wouldn't
even talk to me on the following visit. She also has our daughter
calling me by my first name, she told me I was nothing more than a
sperm donor in front of our daughter. I only know part of what is
going on because the mom acts friendly to my face most of the time but
tells our daughter alot of stuff when I'm not there. I'm thinking that
getting a court order will accomplish two things. First off, it gets
the whole threat of taking her to court out of the picture. My
daughter must think that court is some horrible place where they are
going to hurt her mother. Secondly, it will provide a way to keep the
mother in check somewhat since I'm hoping that part of the order will
state that she is not to say anything negative about me to our
daughter. Thirdly, it will guarantee that I'll have access to my
daughter. I don't think the mother would violate a court order but if
she does, I'll be able to at least have a way to fight it.

The problem with this whole mess is that the legal aspects are all
about rights but what good are my rights if my daughter ends up being
afraid of or hating me by the time it's all said and done? It seems
any road I take is going to be a rough one.

btw, I'm not an attorney...just a rather cynical, moderately bitter 14
year NCP.

Don
Thanks, your input is greatly appreciated.

Dave wrote:
On 18 Oct 2006 04:33:11 -0700, wrote:


messy....

There is no "right" answer as to how to proceed legally. Just try to
sort through the options and after careful consideration do what seems
best to you.


Everyway I proceed seems like it could have some negative aspects to
it.


You need to decide which course of action is best, or least bad, for
your daughter. Not doing anything, keeping the status quo, is one
course of action.

snip

She went from emailing me about how happy she was that I was coming
over that morning to having a fit as if she was very angry by the time
I got to her mothers house.

Wild, unexplained swings in her feeling towards you. Classic symptom.
Read "Divorce Poison" by Warshak.

I thought she was having a bad day so I
left.

BIG mistake, but I'm sure it seemed like the best thing to do at the
time. No father wants to see his child upset. However, you must insist
on significant time with your daughter outside of the influence of the
alienating parent. It's the best antidote to the alientation.

On the next visit 2 weeks later she started screaming and crying
as I came up the porch stairs.I heard her mother say to our child's
grandmother "But mom, she promised she wouldn't do this!".

Scripted so as to disguise the alienator's involvement. Your daughter
will become a skilled actor and liar under the guidance of one who
believes that lying is OK as long as it results in getting what she wants.

Once
inside, she threw a huge fit. She told me she didn't want me to be her
dad and she wished I was dead. After her mother left (her grandmother
and I just waited until her fit was over) she calmed down after about
15 minutes then acted almost like nothing was wrong.

Classic symptoms. Once the influence of the alienating parent is
removed, the symptoms disappear and the child feels safe to express her
true feelings toward the alienated parent.

While she was
crying and screaming I asked her why she was mad and why she felt that
way. All she kept saying was she doesn't know. It was as if someone
had flipped a switch.

Classic symptoms. So heartbreaking.

It ended up with the 3 of us going to a park and
out to get something to eat. At the park, she had me hold her up while
she climbed on a climbing wall so it's not like she gets freaked by me
touching her or anything like that. When we got back to the house I
told the grandmother I was going to go home and my daughter came up on
her own to give me a hug goodbye. The whole thing is very confusing to
me and I'm sure it's confusing to my daughter.


Parental alienation makes no sense to anybody except the person waging
the campaign. That your daughter hugged you of her own volition is a
good sign, and must have made you feel great. The alienation is not yet
complete. There may be hope if you take action now.

IMO you need to walk a line where you do give her space and allow her
to express her feelings and show her that what she says and thinks is
important to you. At the same time IMO you need to make it clear that
she is far too important to you for you to not see her regularly. (Not
sure if that is what came up over "hostility".)


That's pretty much what I tried to do. I explained to her that I was
not leaving no matter what she did.


Excellent. When I did this, it was after a particularly awful fit at my
daughter's school. After I finally got her into the car and home, she
told me "Mom said that if I act out and make a scene enough, you'll stop
coming." I told her I would NEVER stop coming to get her. There were
no further incidents. However, my kid was a few years older than yours
at that point.

Divorced parents nearly always end up complaining, bitching, telling
the child what an ass the other parent is. My own parents did that with
me which puts the child in such an awkward place. My party line with my
son always was that his mother and I don't get along very well (which
is completely obvious) but that as much as possible it will help him
not to choose sides. I think that helped him a little. In time, I
believe children do sort out what's what but of course it takes time.


I've never been able to see my daughter without the mother or
grandmother present. Since the mother and I were never married she
pretty much calls the shots as to when I get to see her.


So she is granting you "supervised" visitation. How generous of her!
With her mother always present, your daughter never has the ability to
break free of the alienating pattern for fear of reprisals later.


I have no interest in gaining sole custody. I think that my daughter
would be really harmed by being pulled away from her mother like that.

I disagree, because as primary custodian, YOU would be in control of
your daughter's best interests, not the disruptive parent. YOU will
decide how much time you spend with your daughter and how much time she
spends with her mother. Just because you have sole custody does not
mean your daughter can never see her mother. If the abuse/alienation
continues after you gain sole custody, then you are in the position to
DO something about it. Your daughter needs TIME with you, away from the
influence of her mother. If you won't go for physical custody, then an
airtight visitation order, specific as to where, when, and on PRECISELY
which calendar days the transfers are to take place, is the next best thing.

What I do want is possibly shared legal custody and some guaranteed
time that I can be alone with my daughter. I want to be able to take
her on vacations and to get to know my side of the family. I only
mentioned my mother in terms of not having to hire an outside
babysitter to watch her during visits to my house. Until I find a
different job, I have to work 6 nights a week.


Your job obligations may jeorpardize your relationship with your
daughter. This is a dilemma that I faced, and which many fathers face.
Until you find a job with more flexible hours or your ex starts
behaving and facilitating (rather than sabotaging) your relationship
with your child, you will be torn between the need to earn income and
the need to spend time with your daughter. Face time, alone with your
daughter, is what she needs right now more than anything, IMO.


What you didn't mention in your post (I know the whole thing is so
emotional) is why you are considering legal action now. I mean is her
mother suggesting you change your visitation pattern?


The mother has not said anything to me about the visitation changing
at all. Through friends of hers, I've been told that she tells our
daughter that she has to see me or I'll take her to court. The last
time I mentioned court she scared my daughter so bad that she wouldn't
even talk to me on the following visit.

Classic symptoms. She is making you out to be this threatening monster
who might "hurt" mommy. This is emotional abuse of a child! You have a
duty as a parent to protect your child from this abuse!

She also has our daughter
calling me by my first name, she told me I was nothing more than a
sperm donor in front of our daughter.

Holy mackerel, if she behaves this way in your presence, what do you
think she says to the poor child in private?!

I only know part of what is
going on because the mom acts friendly to my face most of the time but
tells our daughter alot of stuff when I'm not there.

Sigh. Classic.

I'm thinking that
getting a court order will accomplish two things. First off, it gets
the whole threat of taking her to court out of the picture. My
daughter must think that court is some horrible place where they are
going to hurt her mother.

Your daughter has a deep need to trust and believe her primary
caretaker. So, she will readily believe anything her mother tells her.
About court, about you, about the sky being blue.

Secondly, it will provide a way to keep the
mother in check somewhat since I'm hoping that part of the order will
state that she is not to say anything negative about me to our
daughter.

Yes, you can get an order that says that. Mine does. Try enforcing it
when the negative statements are whispered in the privacy of the
mother's home. It's basically worthless unless the mother is publicly
bashing you in front of the child.

Thirdly, it will guarantee that I'll have access to my
daughter. I don't think the mother would violate a court order but if
she does, I'll be able to at least have a way to fight it.


I will wager $10 that any order for visitation or not making negative
comments will be violated within weeks. When you attempt to enforce the
order and the court does nothing, this will further embolden your ex and
the order will be violated at her whim. I'm sorry to be so negative and
pessimistic, but your case just sounds all too familiar. Been there
done that. I really hope I am wrong, but it took me years to finally
accept that mom was truly psycho and would stop at nothing to hurt or
inconvenience me -- damage to the child be damned.

The problem with this whole mess is that the legal aspects are all
about rights but what good are my rights if my daughter ends up being
afraid of or hating me by the time it's all said and done? It seems
any road I take is going to be a rough one.



Agreed. Best of luck. And again, I'm sorry to be so blunt about this,
but nice guys and their kids finish last in this "game," and I had to
learn it the hard way while my daughter and new wife suffered needlessly.

btw, I'm not an attorney...just a rather cynical, moderately bitter 14
year NCP.

I think I'm slightly more cynical and bitter NCP.


Don

Thanks, your input is greatly appreciated.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for filling in some of the gaps...I know you posted in a
different thread, but I didn't take the time to go through that (other
than to see that you had received replies from people whose opinions I
respect).

Everyway I proceed seems like it could have some negative aspects to
it.

Exactly, which is not the end of the world, just something to weigh.

This is such an individual decision that no way am I going to try to
tell you what to do. But I will say what I would do:

1. I would become an expert on child custody and child support
laws/guidelines in your state. Study both the state code plus any
recent appellate decisions. There is not all that much to them, just a
few pages but you need to know that area cold.

2. I would find an attorney who would work with me, representing me in
areas that were too challenging for me but who also would be fine with
me going pro se (latin for representing myself) and who would let me
draft my own motions and with him editing them.

The reason for this is that legal fees can get out of control so fast.
Even when I had an income of $100K per year it was completely
impossible for me to keep up with them.

Though admittedly, the trial (at least the first trial, you probably
need representation). It isn't so much that it's intellectually
difficult, more it is so emotionally difficult. BTW, I found it super
helpful to know that attorneys hate going against a non-attorney.
Contrary to them shooting fish in a barrel, the judge does give you
lots more latitude plus you know every tiny detail of your case, while
the other attorney is juggling 6-12 cases. But you need to be clear on
what you agree to. Though if you know the law; after all the wasted
time and money more often than not it is a rubber-stamp decision.
(child to the mother, bills to the father.) And you do need to know
what is a good vs terrible offer from the opposing side, re. child
support or visitation or anything else.

3. I would finesse the situation while I worked on 1 and 2. (Which I
would to in the next few weeks.)

BTW, the earlier comments about the value of court orders preventing
the other parent from making negative comments are exactly right. They
are boilerplate and while well meaning, are worthless.

The other parent is going to say whatever they feel like. Likely it
will have an effect on your daughter, but you can off-set that over
time. If you work at it (and it can be very difficult and quite
frustrating work), you can continue to be a very important part of your
daughter's life. In time she will sort out the character of each
parent.

Unless the mother has a history of drug/alcohol abuse, documented
mental illness (more than mild depression)...I'm thinking of something
like hospitalization or more than one example of documented child
endangerment I would not bother seeking sole physical custody.

If it were me, I would not get into "expert" testimony over which
parent is better, unless some of the above paragraph applies. Otherwise
it is my expert vs hers and it is a wash except for the tens of
thousands of dollars the experts chew up.

IMO sole physical custody is not going to happen at least now which
likely means never. And you run some risk of a judge deciding you are
way over-reaching, particularly since in terms of hours/week you have a
history of not being with your daughter very often. Although the mother
does sound emotionally erratic so in theory in time and with enough
motions on your part, possibly it could eventually happen. But at best
it is a longshot equivalent to a trifecta.

Be clear on what joint legal custody gives you vs joint physical
custody. The former sounds great, means little other than you get to be
a visitor in your child's life. There are also major differences in
terms of how child support is handled between those two types of
custody.

Know the child support obligations (guidelines) inside and out. Be sure
that if you go to court you can handle the 20%-30% bite of gross salary
that most states demand. DO NOT TAKE THIS TO COURT IF YOU CAN'T PAY
THAT AMOUNT

While you are learning the child support guidelines see if attribution
of income also applies to the custodial parent...usually it does.

The situations you've described to me sound unstable enough that IMO,
assuming I did all I described above, I would go to court; seeking
joint physical custody, expecting never to get it and settling for
joint legal custody.

One thing that kept me going for the last 14 years was remember that my
son needed me and that it was up to me to be a part of his life in
whatever way I could regardless of the abuse and legal discrimination.

Don

wrote:
Hi Dave,

Thanks for filling in some of the gaps...I know you posted in a
different thread, but I didn't take the time to go through that (other
than to see that you had received replies from people whose opinions I
respect).


Everyway I proceed seems like it could have some negative aspects to
it.


Exactly, which is not the end of the world, just something to weigh.

This is such an individual decision that no way am I going to try to
tell you what to do. But I will say what I would do:

1. I would become an expert on child custody and child support
laws/guidelines in your state. Study both the state code plus any
recent appellate decisions. There is not all that much to them, just a
few pages but you need to know that area cold.

2. I would find an attorney who would work with me, representing me in
areas that were too challenging for me but who also would be fine with
me going pro se (latin for representing myself) and who would let me
draft my own motions and with him editing them.

The reason for this is that legal fees can get out of control so fast.
Even when I had an income of $100K per year it was completely
impossible for me to keep up with them.

Though admittedly, the trial (at least the first trial, you probably
need representation). It isn't so much that it's intellectually
difficult, more it is so emotionally difficult. BTW, I found it super
helpful to know that attorneys hate going against a non-attorney.
Contrary to them shooting fish in a barrel, the judge does give you
lots more latitude plus you know every tiny detail of your case, while
the other attorney is juggling 6-12 cases. But you need to be clear on
what you agree to. Though if you know the law; after all the wasted
time and money more often than not it is a rubber-stamp decision.
(child to the mother, bills to the father.) And you do need to know
what is a good vs terrible offer from the opposing side, re. child
support or visitation or anything else.

3. I would finesse the situation while I worked on 1 and 2. (Which I
would to in the next few weeks.)

BTW, the earlier comments about the value of court orders preventing
the other parent from making negative comments are exactly right. They
are boilerplate and while well meaning, are worthless.

The other parent is going to say whatever they feel like. Likely it
will have an effect on your daughter, but you can off-set that over
time. If you work at it (and it can be very difficult and quite
frustrating work), you can continue to be a very important part of your
daughter's life. In time she will sort out the character of each
parent.

Unless the mother has a history of drug/alcohol abuse, documented
mental illness (more than mild depression)...I'm thinking of something
like hospitalization or more than one example of documented child
endangerment I would not bother seeking sole physical custody.

If it were me, I would not get into "expert" testimony over which
parent is better, unless some of the above paragraph applies. Otherwise
it is my expert vs hers and it is a wash except for the tens of
thousands of dollars the experts chew up.

IMO sole physical custody is not going to happen at least now which
likely means never. And you run some risk of a judge deciding you are
way over-reaching, particularly since in terms of hours/week you have a
history of not being with your daughter very often. Although the mother
does sound emotionally erratic so in theory in time and with enough
motions on your part, possibly it could eventually happen. But at best
it is a longshot equivalent to a trifecta.

Be clear on what joint legal custody gives you vs joint physical
custody. The former sounds great, means little other than you get to be
a visitor in your child's life. There are also major differences in
terms of how child support is handled between those two types of
custody.

Know the child support obligations (guidelines) inside and out. Be sure
that if you go to court you can handle the 20%-30% bite of gross salary
that most states demand. DO NOT TAKE THIS TO COURT IF YOU CAN'T PAY
THAT AMOUNT

While you are learning the child support guidelines see if attribution
of income also applies to the custodial parent...usually it does.

The situations you've described to me sound unstable enough that IMO,
assuming I did all I described above, I would go to court; seeking
joint physical custody, expecting never to get it and settling for
joint legal custody.

One thing that kept me going for the last 14 years was remember that my
son needed me and that it was up to me to be a part of his life in
whatever way I could regardless of the abuse and legal discrimination.

Don

Dave, all of Don's advice is spot on. I would also recommend that you
should join a father's group in your area and check out a couple
meetings. The moral support is great, and you can sometimes get
excellent advice on which attorneys and judges in your area are good,
and which are to be avoided at all costs.

Good luck to you and your daughter. Keep us posted on how things go.

On 19 Oct 2006 05:55:46 -0700, in alt.child-support you wrote:

Hi Dave,

Thanks for filling in some of the gaps...I know you posted in a
different thread, but I didn't take the time to go through that (other
than to see that you had received replies from people whose opinions I
respect).

Everyway I proceed seems like it could have some negative aspects to
it.

Exactly, which is not the end of the world, just something to weigh.

This is such an individual decision that no way am I going to try to
tell you what to do. But I will say what I would do:

1. I would become an expert on child custody and child support
laws/guidelines in your state. Study both the state code plus any
recent appellate decisions. There is not all that much to them, just a
few pages but you need to know that area cold.

2. I would find an attorney who would work with me, representing me in
areas that were too challenging for me but who also would be fine with
me going pro se (latin for representing myself) and who would let me
draft my own motions and with him editing them.

I never realized how hard it was to find a good attorney. I thought I
found one but as of today, she has rescheduled twice saying she had to
be in court each time we set up an appointment. I'm new to dealing
with lawyers but don't they know when they are going to be in court
more than a day or two out?

The reason for this is that legal fees can get out of control so fast.
Even when I had an income of $100K per year it was completely
impossible for me to keep up with them.

Though admittedly, the trial (at least the first trial, you probably
need representation). It isn't so much that it's intellectually
difficult, more it is so emotionally difficult. BTW, I found it super
helpful to know that attorneys hate going against a non-attorney.
Contrary to them shooting fish in a barrel, the judge does give you
lots more latitude plus you know every tiny detail of your case, while
the other attorney is juggling 6-12 cases. But you need to be clear on
what you agree to. Though if you know the law; after all the wasted
time and money more often than not it is a rubber-stamp decision.
(child to the mother, bills to the father.) And you do need to know
what is a good vs terrible offer from the opposing side, re. child
support or visitation or anything else.

The last time I was going to try this, I got very confused about which
forms to use. I called the FOC and they told me to file a form saying
I needed a home inspection done. I wanted a lawyer this time so that I
won't get bogged down in the details.

3. I would finesse the situation while I worked on 1 and 2. (Which I
would to in the next few weeks.)

BTW, the earlier comments about the value of court orders preventing
the other parent from making negative comments are exactly right. They
are boilerplate and while well meaning, are worthless.

The orders themselves might be worthless but the fact that the mother
may fear having to go back to court over them may be of some help. I'm
hoping she'll get some understanding of the damage she is doing out of
all this (if she doesn't already know)


The other parent is going to say whatever they feel like. Likely it
will have an effect on your daughter, but you can off-set that over
time. If you work at it (and it can be very difficult and quite
frustrating work), you can continue to be a very important part of your
daughter's life. In time she will sort out the character of each
parent.

This is what I had hoped for in the beginning. That I'd be able to
keep a good relationship with my daughter and let her find out on her
own where both her mother and I were lacking, just like any other kid
does.

Unless the mother has a history of drug/alcohol abuse, documented
mental illness (more than mild depression)...I'm thinking of something
like hospitalization or more than one example of documented child
endangerment I would not bother seeking sole physical custody.

I'm NOT seeking sole custody of her. I would take it if it ever became
necessary. As for the mother..she is on a disability for emotional
problems (I think it was anxiety attacks and depression). She was
hospitalized after a suicide attempt for about a week. She did have a
domestic violence charge brought against her but as far as our
daughter goes, I think she is doing a decent job aside from the
alienation. I have no interest in "making her look bad" in court.

If it were me, I would not get into "expert" testimony over which
parent is better, unless some of the above paragraph applies. Otherwise
it is my expert vs hers and it is a wash except for the tens of
thousands of dollars the experts chew up.

IMO sole physical custody is not going to happen at least now which
likely means never. And you run some risk of a judge deciding you are
way over-reaching, particularly since in terms of hours/week you have a
history of not being with your daughter very often. Although the mother
does sound emotionally erratic so in theory in time and with enough
motions on your part, possibly it could eventually happen. But at best
it is a longshot equivalent to a trifecta.

Like I said, sole custody is not something I am seeking.

Be clear on what joint legal custody gives you vs joint physical
custody. The former sounds great, means little other than you get to be
a visitor in your child's life. There are also major differences in
terms of how child support is handled between those two types of
custody.

The child support is not really a big issue to me. Without it, I'm
sure my daughter would see a negative difference in her lifestyle. She
already has the cards stacked against her.


Know the child support obligations (guidelines) inside and out. Be sure
that if you go to court you can handle the 20%-30% bite of gross salary
that most states demand. DO NOT TAKE THIS TO COURT IF YOU CAN'T PAY
THAT AMOUNT

While you are learning the child support guidelines see if attribution
of income also applies to the custodial parent...usually it does.

Because of her disability, she lives off the state and child support.

The situations you've described to me sound unstable enough that IMO,
assuming I did all I described above, I would go to court; seeking
joint physical custody, expecting never to get it and settling for
joint legal custody.

One thing that kept me going for the last 14 years was remember that my
son needed me and that it was up to me to be a part of his life in
whatever way I could regardless of the abuse and legal discrimination.

This is the only thing that keeps me going.

Don

PS-Sorry Don I emailed this the first time instead of posting

Dave wrote:
On 19 Oct 2006 05:55:46 -0700, in alt.child-support you wrote:

Because of her disability, she lives off the state and child support.

Heh -- until the CS money stops rolling in, at which point she'll
"miraculously" find the strength to go out and get work.

Seen it before, will see it again.

- Ron ^*^

My 2 youngest kids are experiencing the same thing.
For those of you whose kids may be experiencing the following, go to
http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/pas/major98.htm It's enlightening reading

The child denigrates the alienated parent with foul language and severe
oppositional behavior.
The child offers weak, absurd, or frivolous reasons for his or her
anger.
The child is sure of him or herself and doesn't demonstrate
ambivalence, i.e. love and hate for the alienated parent, only hate.
The child exhorts that he or she alone came up with ideas of
denigration. The "independent-thinker" phenomenon is where the child
asserts that no one told him to do this.
The child supports and feels a need to protect the alienating parent.
The child does not demonstrate guilt over cruelty towards the alienated
parent.
The child uses borrowed scenarios, or vividly describes situations that
he or she could not have experienced.
Animosity is spread to also include the friends and/or extended family
of the alienated parent.

Werebat wrote:
Dave wrote:
On 19 Oct 2006 05:55:46 -0700, in alt.child-support you wrote:

Because of her disability, she lives off the state and child support.

Heh -- until the CS money stops rolling in, at which point she'll
"miraculously" find the strength to go out and get work.

Seen it before, will see it again.

- Ron ^*^