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  #1  
Old October 19th 03, 03:55 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default | Ray attempts Biblical justification: was U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 23:23:05 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:


"Byron Canfield" wrote in message
news:bu4jb.780770$uu5.136098@sccrnsc04...
"Ray Drouillard" wrote in message
...

"Byron Canfield" wrote in message
news:acOib.768006$uu5.134118@sccrnsc04...
"Doan" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, LaVonne Carlson wrote:



Ray Drouillard wrote:

"LaVonne Carlson" wrote in message
...


What you have done is pick and choose portions of the

Old
Testament
to
justify your behavior, and ignore those portions that

you do
not
like
or
agree with.

Actually, it looks like that is what you have done. You

are
trying to
justify your practice of not disciplining your children,

I disciplined my children without resorting to hitting

them.

Good for you. But that is not the issue. The issue here is

how
is it better? I have been challenging you for years to show

me
one "peer-reviewed" study in which, under the same condition,

your
non-cp alternatives are any better. So far, all you could do

is
avoid the issue, launch personal attacks against me. How

about
it, Dr. LaVonne?

Doan

The burden of proof is on you, Doan, to prove that committing

acts of
physical violence on other people accomplishes the ostensible

goal
when it
is already apparent to so many that it is not necessary and is

so
obviously
harmful..

Since you are proposing an alternative to system that is

time-honored
and proven successful, the burden of proof is upon you.


"Time-honored" and "proven successful"? How do you figure? So,

let's see,
the fact that we have a massively disproportionate increase in the

number
of
people in prison for violent offenses to the increase in population

makes
committing acts of violence upon impressionable youth

"time-honored" and
"proven successful" -- is that the proof you mean?


Byron, and the increase in crime has skyrocketed in recent years,

especially
since we've been bombarded with psychobabble about how bad it is to

spank a
child. Many are growing up as spoiled brats, without any form of

discipline
in their lives and grow to adulthood and add to the problem.


This is a myth proven by the ancient's declarations of the same just
because teens going through their angst and separation preparation are
so silly and weird. I engage them all the time, the more dangerous
looking the better. They invariably turn out to be little sweetie pies
trying to look mature...r r r r.

Those that cast them in the role of evil teen would do well to
remember that people will respond as we protray them.

You need to check out the crime rate for teens...it's been going down
for years, along with teen pregnancies.

The media leads a lot of folks astray.

Did you see CBS lead everyone in the country astray about home
schoolers by broadcasting a story of four families (one of which never
WAS a homeschool family) that had the tragedy of murders happen to
them?

It was a complete crock. One family wasn't known to two states child
protective services with drug convictions for the father, and failure
to protect and abuse as well. The state was after them to clean up
their act just before the alleged murder suicide.

Two other cases were clearly mental illness, and the failure was with
other systems, not homeschooling.

We know, if we homeschool and follow it, that children are safer in
those homes than anywhere else. Just in incidence of child sexual
abuse with school teacher and other child caregivers as the perps
shows that....but no story on that.

There has always been a situation of 'abuse' and 'spanking', two

completely
different terms which most of those 'enlightened' among us try to

combine.

We don't "combine" them. You apologists and spankers make that claim
about us when we have carefully explained that even YOU folks can't
define the two as separate and in the end horrible beatings get
portrayed as just justifiable corporal punishment.

Please don't try this old line on us.

Anyone who does not spank a very young child to teach them discipline

and
not do somethin dangerous is putting their child's life at risk.


Since the child cannot determine what is dangerous from one incident
to the next unless conditions and the enviroment are exactly the same
you folks completely miss the point. They aren't afraid of the
danger...they are afraid of YOU, the more present and unpredictible
danger.

So they behave when you are around. They don't when you aren't because
they don't know what you want. You take luck as success. Or the
barrier you put up between them and the danger you discount.

No, the burdon of proof is on those who come up with the new

theories.

Really? Who made that rule?

I recall similar claims about slavery and chattel holding, as in women
and children as property.

For
all of those who were simply 'spanked' as young children and went

bad, there
are millions of others who went on to become great leaders and

members of
the community, a great deal of them do NOT abuse their children, but

are
intelligent enough to understand the difference between disciplining

them
for their own safety and abusing them.


Well, that's a beautiful declaration, but based on nonsense. Those who
suffered spankings of a low enough order and frequency had a much
better chance of surviving it so that the effects weren't all that
apparent, but they are there, nontheless.

Their native capacity to survive helped them out. But many that got no
more than that really didn't do too well. Look around the world. Tell
me you like the way we treat each other.

Now just how low in spanking intensity and frequency must we go to
improve things?

I'd say give a shot to looking at non-punitive
parenting...developmental support and enhancement, with appropriate
redirection. I've posted recently on this.

And we that don't punish are a bit annoyed that you'd assume because
we don't spank we aren't teaching our children and helping them
survive.

Care to explain the Embry study?

It has applications in other areas as well. There is nothing about the
unwanted behavior of street entry that wouldn't cross over to the
unwanted behavior of touching hot stoves, or not handling our cutlery,
or leaving daddy's sharp tools alone.

All without punishing.

I have to assume, though you may wish to deny it, and of course I
could be wrong, after 45 years or so of observation and analysis, that
you believe as you do as a result of being spanked and the certain
effect on your thinking....as in thinking errors.

It's so apparent in that "spanking is not abuse" claim that I can't
respond any other way but to chuckle. chuckle

Kane
  #2  
Old October 19th 03, 10:38 PM
Jayne Kulikauskas
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ray attempts Biblical justification: was U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking


"Kane" wrote in message
om...

[]
It's so apparent in that "spanking is not abuse" claim that I can't
respond any other way but to chuckle. chuckle


Well, Kane, you've convinced me. I have never spanked my children in the
past, but you have done such a horrible job of arguing against it, that I
have decided to try it.

Jayne


  #3  
Old October 20th 03, 05:13 PM
Greg Hanson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ray attempts Biblical justification: was U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

Jane wrote
Well, Kane, you've convinced me. I have never
spanked my children in the past, but you have
done such a horrible job of arguing against
it, that I have decided to try it.


ROFL Rolling On Floor Laughing hysterically!

Jane: I supported you in your choice before,
and if you change that now.

Kane represents the rabid side of anti-spanking.

To me, only half of the issue regarding spanking
is the scientific merits. (Weak or inconclusive)

The other half is rooted in concern about people
(like Kane) militantly pushing their views and
deceiving lawmakers into passing laws removing
parents CHOICE.

As a pro-spanker I respect your choice not to,
but I am very leery of people like Kane who
are anti-spanking and zealots about it.

Until there is irrefutable and convincing
evidence, (No more Sweden or UN garbage)
it all comes down to the parent making their
OWN choice.

Personally I think being against spanking is
fine, but that no parent should ever be told
they must never under any circumstances spank.
In other words, "never say never".

Kane and LaVonne represent a sort of
socialist totalitarianism that would remove
perogative and choice, replacing it with
bureaucratic absolutism.
  #4  
Old October 20th 03, 11:17 PM
LaVonne Carlson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ray attempts Biblical justification: was U.N. rules Canadashould ban spanking

Greg Hanson wrote:

As a pro-spanker I respect your choice not to,
but I am very leery of people like Kane who
are anti-spanking and zealots about it.


This is like saying "As a slave-owner I respect your choice not to own
slaves, but I am very leery of people like Kant who are anti-slavery and
zealots about it."

Until there is irrefutable and convincing
evidence, (No more Sweden or UN garbage)
it all comes down to the parent making their
OWN choice.


Until there is irrefutable and convincing evidence (No more non-slave
states and government garbage) it all comes down to landowners making
their OWN choice.

Personally I think being against spanking is
fine, but that no parent should ever be told
they must never under any circumstances spank.
In other words, "never say never".


Personally I think being against slavery is fine, that that no landowner
should every be told that under any circumstances should they ever be
able to own a slave. In other words, never say never.

Kane and LaVonne represent a sort of
socialist totalitarianism that would remove
perogative and choice, replacing it with
bureaucratic absolutism.


Kane and I, and many others, abhor the idea that children may be
physically assaulted in the name of discipline, while every member of US
society over the age of 18 enjoy protection from physical assault for
any reason.

There was a time in US history when the arguments you use against
legally banning spanking was used to support slavery, to support spousal
abuse, and to support the position that women could not own property or
vote. These positions were challenged in court, and wars were fought
over these positions. Guess what, Greg? Slavery is now illegal,
spousal abuse is now llegal (including spousal rape) and women can vote.

There will come a time in the US that children are also protected.

LaVonne


  #5  
Old October 21st 03, 12:33 AM
Doan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ray attempts Biblical justification: was U.N. rules Canadashould ban spanking


Parent/child is the same as owner/slave! Hey, let's give each child 40
acres and a mule! Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS... ;-)

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, LaVonne Carlson wrote:

Greg Hanson wrote:

As a pro-spanker I respect your choice not to,
but I am very leery of people like Kane who
are anti-spanking and zealots about it.


This is like saying "As a slave-owner I respect your choice not to own
slaves, but I am very leery of people like Kant who are anti-slavery and
zealots about it."

Until there is irrefutable and convincing
evidence, (No more Sweden or UN garbage)
it all comes down to the parent making their
OWN choice.


Until there is irrefutable and convincing evidence (No more non-slave
states and government garbage) it all comes down to landowners making
their OWN choice.

Personally I think being against spanking is
fine, but that no parent should ever be told
they must never under any circumstances spank.
In other words, "never say never".


Personally I think being against slavery is fine, that that no landowner
should every be told that under any circumstances should they ever be
able to own a slave. In other words, never say never.

Kane and LaVonne represent a sort of
socialist totalitarianism that would remove
perogative and choice, replacing it with
bureaucratic absolutism.


Kane and I, and many others, abhor the idea that children may be
physically assaulted in the name of discipline, while every member of US
society over the age of 18 enjoy protection from physical assault for
any reason.

And the police still carry batons! ;-)

Doan

There was a time in US history when the arguments you use against
legally banning spanking was used to support slavery, to support spousal
abuse, and to support the position that women could not own property or
vote. These positions were challenged in court, and wars were fought
over these positions. Guess what, Greg? Slavery is now illegal,
spousal abuse is now llegal (including spousal rape) and women can vote.

There will come a time in the US that children are also protected.

LaVonne




  #6  
Old October 21st 03, 03:52 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ray attempts Biblical justification: was U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

"Jayne Kulikauskas" wrote in message
...
"Kane" wrote in message
om...

[]
It's so apparent in that "spanking is not abuse" claim that I can't
respond any other way but to chuckle. chuckle


Well, Kane, you've convinced me. I have never spanked my children in the
past, but you have done such a horrible job of arguing against it, that I
have decided to try it.

Jayne


Your facitiousness aside; what would be a more convincing argument
than
I've made so far? I had nearly 40 years study, 31 of those
professionally
involved with mentally ill youth, incarcertated men, ordinary
families, a huge
number of homeschooling families.

Since you aren't a spanker then you might be willing to help me by
pointing out how I might improve my argument.

Possibly you could convince me that spanking is better. Could you
share with
me your reasons for believing that?

And if you really didn't spank your children why not? And what did or
could I
say to a non-spanking parent that would convince them to spank?

Thank you,

Kane
  #7  
Old October 21st 03, 04:37 AM
Jayne Kulikauskas
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ray attempts Biblical justification: was U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking


"Kane" wrote in message
om...
"Jayne Kulikauskas" wrote in message
...
"Kane" wrote in message
om...

[]
It's so apparent in that "spanking is not abuse" claim that I can't
respond any other way but to chuckle. chuckle


Well, Kane, you've convinced me. I have never spanked my children in

the
past, but you have done such a horrible job of arguing against it, that

I
have decided to try it.

Jayne


Your facitiousness aside; what would be a more convincing argument
than I've made so far?


I wasn't being facetious. This thread really has convinced me to try
spanking.

I had nearly 40 years study, 31 of those
professionally
involved with mentally ill youth, incarcertated men, ordinary
families, a huge
number of homeschooling families.


Your content is lost in your style. You write in an abusive and bullying
style about how spanking is abusive bullying. You lose all moral authority.

Since you aren't a spanker then you might be willing to help me by
pointing out how I might improve my argument.

Possibly you could convince me that spanking is better. Could you
share with
me your reasons for believing that?


I do not have a good method of discipline for children before the age of
reason. This is probably the greatest weakness in my parenting skills and
makes the toddler years extremely stressful for our whole family. Our
toddler is a danger to himself and others, not to mention property, because
I have no way to control him. I am so stressed by trying to watch him every
instant that I can not enjoy being around my family. I am burnt out and
shortchanging everyone. I desperately need a way to put some limits on this
child.

And if you really didn't spank your children why not? And what did or
could I
say to a non-spanking parent that would convince them to spank?


I have struggled with the fault of being short-tempered ever since I can
remember. I have been afraid that I would lose control of myself if I used
corporal punishment and might really hurt my children. But Mike impressed
me with his point that leaving it as a last resort is what is likely to lead
to losing control. Everything he said made sense, while your points were
lost in nastiness and insults.

Jayne



  #8  
Old October 21st 03, 05:18 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ray attempts Biblical justification: was U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:37:24 -0400, "Jayne Kulikauskas"
wrote:


"Kane" wrote in message
. com...
"Jayne Kulikauskas" wrote in message
...
"Kane" wrote in message
om...

[]
It's so apparent in that "spanking is not abuse" claim that I

can't
respond any other way but to chuckle. chuckle

Well, Kane, you've convinced me. I have never spanked my

children in
the
past, but you have done such a horrible job of arguing against

it, that
I
have decided to try it.

Jayne


Your facitiousness aside; what would be a more convincing argument
than I've made so far?


I wasn't being facetious. This thread really has convinced me to try
spanking.

I had nearly 40 years study, 31 of those
professionally
involved with mentally ill youth, incarcertated men, ordinary
families, a huge
number of homeschooling families.


Your content is lost in your style. You write in an abusive and

bullying
style about how spanking is abusive bullying. You lose all moral

authority.

If you aren't smart enough to see through my style then I doubt you
are smart enough to figure out ways to parent without pain and
humiliation. But I could be wrong.

Since you aren't a spanker then you might be willing to help me by
pointing out how I might improve my argument.

Possibly you could convince me that spanking is better. Could you
share with
me your reasons for believing that?


I do not have a good method of discipline for children before the age

of
reason.


That could be because you are thinking of "discipline" as punishment
and control, rather than redirection, engagement and support for
exploration.

A child that isn't well engaged with his or her environment (adults
are constantly taking things away and "no" saying, instead of
enriching the environment and saying a lot of "yes")tends to drive
eveyone crazy because are being so driven.

To much TV will produce similar results. Mind rot.

This is probably the greatest weakness in my parenting skills and
makes the toddler years extremely stressful for our whole family.


What would be your expectations of a "good discipline method?"

Our
toddler is a danger to himself and others, not to mention property,

because
I have no way to control him.


Jayne, lots of folks have tried pulling my chain only to discover I
have hooked my end to a 220 volt line with a switch. Don't play with
me.

I am so stressed by trying to watch him every
instant that I can not enjoy being around my family.


Then you obviously have a maladjusted mentally ill child...or you are
among the most hapless of parents. And just to show you that I know
you are pulling my chain again, like I just warned you about:

YOU are a liar.

By toddler age if you had a child that difficult you'd have resorted
to spanking in lieu of learning how to parent without it successfully.

I am burnt out and
shortchanging everyone.


Awww....sure, Jayne.

I desperately


You don't carry off "desterately" very well, Jayne. You are lousy at
lying.

need a way to put some limits on this
child.


Anyone that can't figure out the easy task of how to engage a toddler
to keep him busy to the point of HIS exhaustion deserves what they
get.

And if you really didn't spank your children why not? And what did

or
could I
say to a non-spanking parent that would convince them to spank?


I have struggled with the fault of being short-tempered ever since I

can
remember.


So had I. It's not like your temper has to run you, is it? If so, that
is if you aren't trying another piece of lying bull****, then you are
in more serious trouble than I can help with.

I have been afraid that I would lose control of myself if I used
corporal punishment and might really hurt my children.


R R R R...

You really think you can carry of this bull?

But Mike impressed
me with his point that leaving it as a last resort is what is likely

to lead
to losing control.


I'm sure he did. Suckers fall for such lines all the time. "Time
tested and majority approved." I see it all the time. We used to see
it a great deal in treatment centers for mentally ill teens. Their
parents always blamed the problems that resulted on the child, or her
peers, or the disintegration of the family...one of MY all time
favorites.

Everything he said made sense,


Naw. It just made sense to the hapless or the little twits that
believe in it and want to help promote it.

You don't lie well at all.

while your points were
lost in nastiness and insults.


Nice try, Jayne. Won't wash. Go **** up a rope.

Just another fundie attempt to play at being clever. You folks are
lousy at it.

You've been spanking your child since you first were annoyed with him.
Hope he grows up to bludgeon you to death in your sleep with a copy of
one of James Dobson's books. That **** is heavy.

Can't kid an old kidder, Jayne. You are waaaaaay too obvious.


Jayne

r r r r
bingo bango bongo

Stoneman
  #9  
Old October 21st 03, 11:07 AM
Dan Sullivan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ray attempts Biblical justification: was U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking


"Jayne Kulikauskas" wrote in message
...

"Kane" wrote in message
om...
"Jayne Kulikauskas" wrote in message
...
"Kane" wrote in message
om...

[]
It's so apparent in that "spanking is not abuse" claim that I can't
respond any other way but to chuckle. chuckle

Well, Kane, you've convinced me. I have never spanked my children in

the
past, but you have done such a horrible job of arguing against it,

that
I
have decided to try it.

Jayne


Your facitiousness aside; what would be a more convincing argument
than I've made so far?


I wasn't being facetious. This thread really has convinced me to try
spanking.

I had nearly 40 years study, 31 of those
professionally
involved with mentally ill youth, incarcertated men, ordinary
families, a huge
number of homeschooling families.


Your content is lost in your style. You write in an abusive and bullying
style about how spanking is abusive bullying. You lose all moral

authority.

Since you aren't a spanker then you might be willing to help me by
pointing out how I might improve my argument.

Possibly you could convince me that spanking is better. Could you
share with
me your reasons for believing that?


I do not have a good method of discipline for children before the age of
reason. This is probably the greatest weakness in my parenting skills and
makes the toddler years extremely stressful for our whole family. Our
toddler is a danger to himself and others, not to mention property,

because
I have no way to control him. I am so stressed by trying to watch him

every
instant that I can not enjoy being around my family. I am burnt out and
shortchanging everyone. I desperately need a way to put some limits on

this
child.


"Making Children Mind... Without Losing Yours," by Dr. Kevin Leman.

An excellent book.

Just what you need.

And if you really didn't spank your children why not? And what did or
could I
say to a non-spanking parent that would convince them to spank?


I have struggled with the fault of being short-tempered ever since I can
remember. I have been afraid that I would lose control of myself if I

used
corporal punishment and might really hurt my children. But Mike impressed
me with his point that leaving it as a last resort is what is likely to

lead
to losing control. Everything he said made sense, while your points were
lost in nastiness and insults.


Spanking IS a last resort.

Two or three swats with an open hand on the child's behind NOT while you're
angry.

Best, Dan


  #10  
Old October 21st 03, 03:36 PM
Michael S. Morris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ray attempts Biblical justification: was U.N. rules Canadashould ban spanking





Tuesday, the 21st of October, 2003


Kane:
Jayne, lots of folks have tried pulling my chain
only to discover I have hooked my end to a 220 volt
line with a switch. Don't play with me.

Kane, you are so full of it. You are so thoroughly warped
into some sort of myopic crusade by your own pseudo experiences
with the pathological that you see the same pathology everywhere.
And that feedback should have taught you something---namely that
you are simply bigtime wrong about it. Instead, you assume yourself
capable of pronouncing judgment on a whole culture, even to 90% of
its members (by your own count), and all we have to do is wait
a week or two, and your bull**** claimed "conservatism" turns
out predictably to be Bush-hatred and anti-fundie ranting (no,
make that *paranoic* Bush-hatred---never ceases to amaze me
since I make it that Bush is basically a 1980-1990 Democrat in
sheep's closing, and, no, I did not vote for the man).

You got me so wrong it isn't even close to funny, and Jayne is
a very liberal---left even---Canadian Christian, and I'll
bet money she is utterly sincere about parental frustration
with a misbehaving toddler, and you pull this macho act on her.
You demonstrate thereby only that you are incapable of reading
---words, people, books, or any of the culture you live in. And yet
you have dared to try and lecture us about empathy.

Look, you want to try and get it out of your system, my
name is Michael S. Morris, I live at 2731 Little Hurricane
Rd., Martinsville, IN, 46151 (765)349-2359. My place of
business is Morris Machine Co., Inc., 6480 S. Belmont St.,
Indianapolis, IN, 46217 (317)788-0371, and I have an office
at Butler: Department of Physics and Astronomy, Butler University,
4600 Sunset Ave., Indianapolis, IN 46208 (317)940-8318.

I do not hide behind an online pseudonym.

Mike Morris
)
 




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