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#131
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Things to think of before you get married again..
Any woman who isn't in menapause or had a hestrectomy is considered
fertile. DOn't believe woman who 'say' they are on the pill. Take matters into your own hands. Gini wrote: wrote ............................. Deary, a vasectomy is cheaper than a month of child support. If you don't want to breed, don't have sex with a fertile woman, == And how is he to know when she is fertile? |
#132
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Things to think of before you get married again..
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#133
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message link.net... "Bob Whiteside" wrote in message ... "Fred" wrote in message . net... Tripped over it again, did you? Phil wrote: You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother doesn't tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have responsibilities and what are they? It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know that he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he still has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he definitely has legal accountability. How so? Because it's his semen. "His semen, his choice, his responsibility." What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least inform him of the pregnancy? You keep trying that sleazy trick, but it's not gonna work. That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any responsibility that he has. What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you* have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your being. Disgusting. Your little feminist biology lesson is based on wishful thinking and not established biological information. How hard is it to understand eggs are a scarcer resource than sperm? And having a child takes a greater investment on the part of a woman. Because of those biological facts woman by nature should be more selective in mates because a bad choice has long term implications and is a reflection on her discretion in selecting the right sperm. To say men are responsible for women's bad choices in sperm is to transfer the biological misjudgments made by women to men. The femwits who can't accept their biological destiny want to have the state step in with remedies to cover up their biological mistakes. The state's solution is to use men's money to cover-up the lack of responsibility by women who don't select good mates. You might as well talk to a brick, Bob. This one can't see beyond their own hatred for men, much like a couple of other gender-feminists I could name. Have you seen the TV commercial where hundreds of sperm are shown swimming across the screen and the announcer talks about all the available choices and then the sperm morph into PC mice? It reminds me of these feminist types who could have chosen better sperm providers just as easily as they could have chosen a better PC mouse providers. :-) And, in case you are wondering, I find it offensive male reproductive biology is used in such a light-hearted way to sell a product. You would NEVER see a woman's egg used in such a whimsical way. But ya sure don't mind when they use her tits and ass to sell things, huh? |
#134
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Things to think of before you get married again..
?-? wrote:
"Fred" wrote in Both base child support on the combined gross incomes of both parents, That's after they impute his income up and impute her income down, then it's calulated. Have a friend whose ex's income was imputed down to the point of where they said she was earning only $800/mth as an RN. What jurisdiction? |
#135
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Things to think of before you get married again..
Fred wrote:
Gini wrote: "teachrmama" wrote ............................ And you, Fred, are totally *dismissing* WOMEN'S responsibilities! I am a woman, and I find it demeaning that you keep harping on what MEN should do, but not a hint about how WOMEN should handle their responibilities in the same situation. Everything a woman does after the sex act is a consequence of where that mean old man left his semen. Nonsense! Or maybe I'm just reading you wrong--why don't you clearly delineate what the woman's responsibilities are after the consequence of pregnancy becomes an issue. == A ride to the CSE office? (Because she's *owed* it, of course.) I guess that the matter is best explained by reference to the theme of the game Fable: "For every choice, a consequence." It's too bad that you seem to grasp the obvious fact that all post conception choices are the woman's and therefore, in accordance with the precepts of "Natural/Fundamental" Justice, all the consequences that follow from those choices should also be hers. So he chooses to spread his semen hither and yon, and she chooses to let him spread it in her. And let's say that the consequence is pregnancy. But that's as far as the "consequence" of his "spreading his sperm around" go. After that the woman has many options and CHOICES...even if she decides (note the word "decides") not to abort the fetus, that to, is a CHOICE, the consequence of which will most likely be the birth of a child... Now there are other choices to be made, in this case by her, and from those choices will spring consequences in turn. Yes, as I noted above, but ALL post conception choices are HER choices, to hold him responsible for the consequences that follow from HER choices is fundamentally unfair, unjust and, on top of all that, most likely unconstitutional... Had there been no pregnancy, the consequences resulting therefrom would not have occurred, because the choices resulting therefrom would not have had to be made. And had he not spread his semen around, or had she chosen not to let him spread his semen in her, there would have been no pregnancy. Even though true in most cases (though not in *all* cases), the fact that there ARE post conception choices for the woman, negates the causal link between the "spreading of his sperm" and childbirth...as they say in mathematics, sperm is "a necessary but not a sufficient" requirement for creating a baby. The mother's CHOICES completely outweigh and can completely negate his "contribution" at any time during the gestation period...up to (literally) seconds before a natural live birth would have taken place. Yes, she contributed to that pregnancy. But so did he, and attempts to deny that fact with sanctimonious bleatings to the effect of "her body, her choice, her responsibility" are simply not valid. You are absolutely and completely wrong. "Her Body = Her Choice = Her Responsibility" is a completely valid, legally and morally consistent concept that springs from the reality that in a "just" system of jurisprudence, from the power/authority to take action arises responsibility for the consequences of the power/action. When the power is solely held by one person, the responsibility for the consequences of the action (or indeed the inaction) rests solely on that one individual. In this case, the woman has sole, sovereign, authority to determine whether any pregnancy will be allowed to continue...that is a CHOICE with two possibilities, abort or do not abort...BOTH are choices with consequences and both are HERS ALONE and therefore the consequences of either of those CHOICES should be hers alone... Yes, he does not have input into certain downstream choices/consequences. That's unfortunate, but it does not absolve him from taking at least some responsibility for the consequences of his behavior in spreading his semen hither and yon, including downstream consequences not of his choosing, for at the end of the day it's "his semen, his choice, his responsibility." The consequence of his "spreading his sperm hither and yon" may be an unwanted pregnancy however, since Roe-v-Wade, NO MAN has been responsible for the birth of a child...that responsibility is solely the woman's because she has the sole authority to take the decisions and actions that MUST BE TAKEN for the pregnancy to continue and the child to be born... Abortion? Without an unwanted pregnancy, there is no abortion. And without his semen, there is no unwanted pregnancy. "His semen, his choice, his responsibility." Yes, I agree 100% that he is equally responsible for the pregnancy but SHE is responsible for HER choice to continue the pregnancy and the consequences that arise from that decision... Child support? Without a pregnancy, there is no child to support. And without his semen, there is no pregnancy. "His semen, his choice, his responsibility." Drivel...this completely absolves the woman of the natural consequences of the exercise of HER sole authority... What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that people take responsibility? But that's exactly what we're asking for, that the sole, sovereign authority of the woman over this process be recognized and that she be morally and legally constrained to accept sole responsibility for the consequences of the decisions and actions that she takes... In the case where her decisions and actions are influenced by the man, then HIS actions must also be taken into consideration, but the fact that she finds herself pregnant isn't na influence of this nature since it does not effect her decision making. As a example of what I mean; if he tells her that he wants the child and will support her and/or will take the child if she doesn't want it, then, IMHO, he's "on the hook" and is responsible. ....ken |
#136
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"Ken Chaddock" wrote in message news:RzLWg.10968$H7.5814@edtnps82... Fred wrote: Gini wrote: "teachrmama" wrote ............................ And you, Fred, are totally *dismissing* WOMEN'S responsibilities! I am a woman, and I find it demeaning that you keep harping on what MEN should do, but not a hint about how WOMEN should handle their responibilities in the same situation. Everything a woman does after the sex act is a consequence of where that mean old man left his semen. Nonsense! Or maybe I'm just reading you wrong--why don't you clearly delineate what the woman's responsibilities are after the consequence of pregnancy becomes an issue. == A ride to the CSE office? (Because she's *owed* it, of course.) I guess that the matter is best explained by reference to the theme of the game Fable: "For every choice, a consequence." It's too bad that you seem to grasp the obvious fact that all post conception choices are the woman's and therefore, in accordance with the precepts of "Natural/Fundamental" Justice, all the consequences that follow from those choices should also be hers. So he chooses to spread his semen hither and yon, and she chooses to let him spread it in her. And let's say that the consequence is pregnancy. But that's as far as the "consequence" of his "spreading his sperm around" go. After that the woman has many options and CHOICES...even if she decides (note the word "decides") not to abort the fetus, that to, is a CHOICE, the consequence of which will most likely be the birth of a child... And if the child is born, how does that absolve the man from any responsibility for or to the child? Isn't it still 50% genetically his child, and legally his child as well? Now there are other choices to be made, in this case by her, and from those choices will spring consequences in turn. Yes, as I noted above, but ALL post conception choices are HER choices, to hold him responsible for the consequences that follow from HER choices is fundamentally unfair, unjust and, on top of all that, most likely unconstitutional... So because she has choices that pertain strictly to undergoing (or not undergoing) a medical and surgical procedure, you think this absolves the man from any responsibility, even though it's still his child? Had there been no pregnancy, the consequences resulting therefrom would not have occurred, because the choices resulting therefrom would not have had to be made. And had he not spread his semen around, or had she chosen not to let him spread his semen in her, there would have been no pregnancy. Even though true in most cases (though not in *all* cases), the fact that there ARE post conception choices for the woman, negates the causal link between the "spreading of his sperm" and childbirth...as they say in mathematics, sperm is "a necessary but not a sufficient" requirement for creating a baby. The mother's CHOICES completely outweigh and can completely negate his "contribution" at any time during the gestation period...up to (literally) seconds before a natural live birth would have taken place. Yes, she contributed to that pregnancy. But so did he, and attempts to deny that fact with sanctimonious bleatings to the effect of "her body, her choice, her responsibility" are simply not valid. You are absolutely and completely wrong. "Her Body = Her Choice = Her Responsibility" is a completely valid, legally and morally consistent concept that springs from the reality that in a "just" system of jurisprudence, from the power/authority to take action arises responsibility for the consequences of the power/action. When the power is solely held by one person, the responsibility for the consequences of the action (or indeed the inaction) rests solely on that one individual. In this case, the woman has sole, sovereign, authority to determine whether any pregnancy will be allowed to continue...that is a CHOICE with two possibilities, abort or do not abort...BOTH are choices with consequences and both are HERS ALONE and therefore the consequences of either of those CHOICES should be hers alone... Yes, he does not have input into certain downstream choices/consequences. That's unfortunate, but it does not absolve him from taking at least some responsibility for the consequences of his behavior in spreading his semen hither and yon, including downstream consequences not of his choosing, for at the end of the day it's "his semen, his choice, his responsibility." The consequence of his "spreading his sperm hither and yon" may be an unwanted pregnancy however, since Roe-v-Wade, NO MAN has been responsible for the birth of a child...that responsibility is solely the woman's because she has the sole authority to take the decisions and actions that MUST BE TAKEN for the pregnancy to continue and the child to be born... Abortion? Without an unwanted pregnancy, there is no abortion. And without his semen, there is no unwanted pregnancy. "His semen, his choice, his responsibility." Yes, I agree 100% that he is equally responsible for the pregnancy but SHE is responsible for HER choice to continue the pregnancy and the consequences that arise from that decision... Child support? Without a pregnancy, there is no child to support. And without his semen, there is no pregnancy. "His semen, his choice, his responsibility." Drivel...this completely absolves the woman of the natural consequences of the exercise of HER sole authority... What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that people take responsibility? But that's exactly what we're asking for, that the sole, sovereign authority of the woman over this process be recognized and that she be morally and legally constrained to accept sole responsibility for the consequences of the decisions and actions that she takes... In the case where her decisions and actions are influenced by the man, then HIS actions must also be taken into consideration, but the fact that she finds herself pregnant isn't na influence of this nature since it does not effect her decision making. As a example of what I mean; if he tells her that he wants the child and will support her and/or will take the child if she doesn't want it, then, IMHO, he's "on the hook" and is responsible. ...ken |
#137
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Things to think of before you get married again..
Ken Chaddock wrote:
Fred wrote: Gini wrote: "teachrmama" wrote ............................ And you, Fred, are totally *dismissing* WOMEN'S responsibilities! I am a woman, and I find it demeaning that you keep harping on what MEN should do, but not a hint about how WOMEN should handle their responibilities in the same situation. Everything a woman does after the sex act is a consequence of where that mean old man left his semen. Nonsense! Or maybe I'm just reading you wrong--why don't you clearly delineate what the woman's responsibilities are after the consequence of pregnancy becomes an issue. == A ride to the CSE office? (Because she's *owed* it, of course.) I guess that the matter is best explained by reference to the theme of the game Fable: "For every choice, a consequence." It's too bad that you seem to grasp the obvious fact that all post conception choices are the woman's and therefore, in accordance with the precepts of "Natural/Fundamental" Justice, all the consequences that follow from those choices should also be hers. I am aware of what Canada's notion of "natural justice". I know that it allows Canada to declare age discrimination to be legal even though it is unconstitutional; see McKinney v. University of Guelph. So if you expect me to buy any argument based on that concept, you are swimming upstream. I read your entire message. What it boils down to is yet another attempt to evade your responsibilities by ignoring the doctrine of informed consent. Sorry, but men can't just spread their semen hither and yon and walk away from the consequences thereof because those consequences are .... *inconvenient*. That's "inconvenient" as in financially inconvenient, because at the end of the day it's always about the money with y'all. It's disgusting, really. |
#138
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Things to think of before you get married again..
Fred -
You are Fred aren't you, and not Cindy, Sharon, Luoise, or some other feminist disguising yourself to make it look like you are chivalrous? Since your whole beef on the subject is men taking responsibility for an action of enjoyment, I wonder if you live inside your home all day long? No? You mean you do venture out to partake in activities that bring joy into your life, like perhaps water skiiing, mountain climbing, handgliding, or maybe something as simple as heading down to Barnes&Noble to check out a new book? You do? Great! You're now a hypocrite. You see, Fred, you should have taken responsibility for your actions by NOT engaging in these activities that bring your enjoyment. Why? Because people are killed every day from doing those things, including hopping in their car or on their bike and going just a short distance. So, the next time you decide to take action by engaging in an activity that brings you enjoyment - no matter what it is - remember YOU are taking a risk by doing so, therefore, YOU have the responsibility for your actions beforehand. Fred wrote: Andre Lieven wrote: "Tracy" ) writes: "Gini" wrote in message news:v25Vg.2469$6S2.1287@trndny02... wrote ............................. Deary, a vasectomy is cheaper than a month of child support. If you don't want to breed, don't have sex with a fertile woman, == And how is he to know when she is fertile? Isn't a vasectomy only cheaper than a month of child support if child support is more than a vasecotmy? How much is a vasectomy? How much is a tubal ligation ? Here's something interesting: "The cost of vasectomy is typically 3 to 4 times less than the cost of tubal ligation. Although prices vary, regionally, vasectomy costs generally range from about two hundrend fifty to one thousand dollars, while the cost of tubal ligation often begin at about one thousand dollars and may go as high as twenty-five hundred dollars. The cost difference is mainly due to the fact of where each procedure is performed; an office procedure vs. a hospital procedure." http://womenshealth.about.com/cs/ste...zhisorhe_3.htm But it's not really about cost, is it? It's about taking responsibility. And let's face it, he's responsible for where his semen ends up, and in this day and age, I don't think it's reasonable for him to say that he didn't know *all* of the potential consequences of his actions. So here's a question: How much is a condom? |
#139
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Fred" wrote in message . net... I just took a look at the child support guidelines for Michigan and Virginia, two jurisdictions in which I have lived. Both base child support on the combined gross incomes of both parents, as well as taking into account the amount of time the child spends with each. Basically, it's the same sort of equity-based system that will be going into effect here in Minnesota on January 1. You might want to take a look at the child support guidelines in the jurisdiction in which you live. What a load of naivete! chuckle Don't it just make it understandable how the states are able to pull the crap they pull when someone naive comes on and acts like the state is doing a good job in relation to families? Phil #3 |
#140
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message link.net... "Fred" wrote in message . net... Phil wrote: "Fred" wrote in message . net... Gini wrote: "Fred" wrote .................... What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that people take responsibility? == Not at all--In fact we agree. She had the responsibility to not have sex when she was ovulating and had the responsibility to know when she is ovulating and the responsibility to tell him when she was ovulating. Apparently, she failed to do so. What we seem to have (systemically, in our society) is a failure to compel women to accept responsibility for their actions and decisions and we them condemn men for not anticipating her lack of responsibility. I don't think that it is an either/or situation. Both parties bear a responsibility. What I object to are the representations to the effect that one party is solely responsible to the exclusion of the other. Think about it: some men use sanctimonious statements such as "her body, her choice, her responsibility" to evade their own responsibilities. I know this because those men conspicuously evade my statement, "his semen, his choice, his responsibility." Failing to grasp that HER choice, whatever is may be, overrides his choice and with it goes the sole responsibility for that choice. The ONE making the decisions should accept the consequences of their decision. Those who contributed to the condition are both accountable. But as you say in another post, men and women are different and have different responsibilities due to their biological differences so take a stand and stand by it already. With pregnancy, men should be held equally liable to that of the mother, which means they should have the option of raising the child as they see fit every bit as much as the other but when the parents are not involved in an intact relationship, BOTH parents should be equal in custody, support (financial, emotional, spiritual and all others) and every other facet of the child's life unless there is a valid and just reason not to allow it. That "valid and just" phrase speaks to equity, which is fine with me. Not equality; equity. No, equality, I didn't misspell it. On the other hand, as long as women have the option to just walk away from a living, breathing child, denying men the same right in the same period is sexist and unequal treatment for similarly situated people. As long as women have the option to decide whether to become parents at all, men should have the same legal right during the same period. And there it is! The man seeks to evade responsibility for his actions. No, not at all. You need to learn to comprehend the written word. That is NOT what I said. Perhaps if I typed r-e-a-l s-l-o-w... I'm promoting equality. You see it as something else. Why, I'm not sure but I suspect you are a gender-feminist and ashamed to admit it. Maybe "he" is really a "she" who is not getting the amount she feels she is entitled to. OR maybe his mother didn't get enough child support form any of the men she let knock her up so she wouldn't have to work. He (or she) sounds bitter, angry, and absolutely foolsih. (and maybe related to MoonShyne--you can tell by the tap dancing) Any of the above is possible and one or more is even likely. We've all seen this type come on, stay a while and then disappear. They actually do a service; they prove what many here have been saying that there are some people (men included) who just have a phobia in relation to men. It could be brain damage, psychological problems or any one of a bunch of other conditions whereby they are unable to make logical sense. The one thing they all have it common is the inability to post for more than three threads without showing themselves to be prejudiced which is often observed plainly on post number 1. When this is combined with none of their ideas being thought out, they come off like total asses who are completely unaware of their surroundings and what's going on in the real world around them. One of the most common identifiers is name-calling as argument; another is the inability to refrain from cutting another's post's to change the sense, tense or meaning of the sentence or part thereof and argue against something not said. Phil#3 |
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