Things to think of before you get married again..

"Fred" wrote
.....................
What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that people take
responsibility?
==
Not at all--In fact we agree. She had the responsibility to not have sex
when she was ovulating
and had the responsibility to know when she is ovulating and the
responsibility to tell him when
she was ovulating. Apparently, she failed to do so. What we seem to have
(systemically, in our society)
is a failure to compel women to accept responsibility for their actions and
decisions and we them condemn
men for not anticipating her lack of responsibility. I am tired of our
society treating women like helpless
dependents of the state and of man. It has led to abbhorent behavior by
women and is being swept under
the rug at the expense of children. For instance, are you aware that mothers
are responsible for 2/3 of child abuse
cases and that the bio father is the *least* likely family member to abuse
his children?

Gini wrote:
"Fred" wrote
....................
What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that people take
responsibility?
==
Not at all--In fact we agree. She had the responsibility to not have sex
when she was ovulating
and had the responsibility to know when she is ovulating and the
responsibility to tell him when
she was ovulating. Apparently, she failed to do so. What we seem to have
(systemically, in our society)
is a failure to compel women to accept responsibility for their actions
and
decisions and we them condemn
men for not anticipating her lack of responsibility. I am tired of our
society treating women like helpless
dependents of the state and of man. It has led to abbhorent behavior by
women and is being swept under
the rug at the expense of children.

For instance, are you aware that mothers
are responsible for 2/3 of child abuse
cases and that the bio father is the *least* likely family member to abuse
his children?

Got any cites to back that up? Sounds like you made it up.

"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
Gini wrote:
"teachrmama" wrote
............................
And you, Fred, are totally *dismissing* WOMEN'S responsibilities! I am
a woman, and I find it demeaning that you keep harping on what MEN
should do, but not a hint about how WOMEN should handle their
responibilities in the same situation. Everything a woman does after the
sex act is a consequence of where that mean old man left his semen.
Nonsense! Or maybe I'm just reading you wrong--why don't you clearly
delineate what the woman's responsibilities are after the consequence of
pregnancy becomes an issue.
==
A ride to the CSE office? (Because she's *owed* it, of course.)


I guess that the matter is best explained by reference to the theme of the
game Fable: "For every choice, a consequence."

So he chooses to spread his semen hither and yon, and she chooses to let
him spread it in her. And let's say that the consequence is pregnancy. Now
there are other choices to be made, in this case by her, and from those
choices will spring consequences in turn.

Had there been no pregnancy, the consequences resulting therefrom would
not have occurred, because the choices resulting therefrom would not have
had to be made. And had he not spread his semen around, or had she chosen
not to let him spread his semen in her, there would have been no
pregnancy.

Yes, she contributed to that pregnancy. But so did he, and attempts to
deny that fact with sanctimonious bleatings to the effect of "her body,
her choice, her responsibility" are simply not valid.

Yes, he does not have input into certain downstream choices/consequences.
That's unfortunate, but it does not absolve him from taking at least some
responsibility for the consequences of his behavior in spreading his semen
hither and yon, including downstream consequences not of his choosing, for
at the end of the day it's "his semen, his choice, his responsibility."

Abortion? Without an unwanted pregnancy, there is no abortion. And without
his semen, there is no unwanted pregnancy. "His semen, his choice, his
responsibility."

Child support? Without a pregnancy, there is no child to support. And
without his semen, there is no pregnancy. "His semen, his choice, his
responsibility."

What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that people take
responsibility?

PLEASE pay better attention, Fred! You have never heard me deny the
responsibility of either parent--never! What I AM saying is that WOMEN also
need to be held responsible! BOTH parties are resposible, and BOTH should
have both RIGHTS and RESPONSIBILITIES!

Both mother and father should have the wonderful joy of raising the child,
and both mother and father should pay for it--as co-parents, not as one
parent and one walking ATM. The woman had sex just as surely as the man did.
What I am tired of is having the blessibng of raising the child treated as
HER "consequence" and the responsibility of paying for it treated as HIS
"consequence." Her egg-her resposibility, his semen-his responsibility---no
problem with me.

So please, Fred, tell me what you see as the woman's responsibility when an
unexpected pregnancy occurs. Tell me if you think she is equally
responsibile in all the same ways as a man is--or if you go along with the
woman gets the child and man pays for it system now in place.

Nearl J Icarus wrote:
says...

hostage to a family court's will. How did we ever go from the model 50's
family to the highly dysfunctional relationships of today?

Its the same difference between fantasy and reality. I'm a product of that
"model 50's family." IMHO, the fallacy of that "model 50's family" is what
lead to your "highly dysfunctional realtionships of today." Back then they
pretended everything was hunky dory. Today we know better. If you want the
glory back, join Bill and stick your head in the sand.

No, we'd rather join you here, with all the single and no parent homes of
today).
Clearly, clearly, we have made "capital" gains, and tremendous progress.
Hey - pass over that key (latchkey), will ya?? I lost mine, and can't
get in.

"Bill in Co." wrote
Gini wrote:
....................................

For instance, are you aware that mothers
are responsible for 2/3 of child abuse
cases and that the bio father is the *least* likely family member to
abuse
his children?

Got any cites to back that up? Sounds like you made it up.
==
It does, doesn't it? That's because it is shocking in light of what we
always hear.
But, you can find the data on the US Dept. of Justice website. Yep, it's
right there--
lots of other places, too. This is really no secret. You can also google acs
for my other posts
a years or so ago on this data as there are several citations there.

says...

hostage to a family court's will. How did we ever go from the model 50's
family to the highly dysfunctional relationships of today?

Its the same difference between fantasy and reality. I'm a product of that
"model 50's family." IMHO, the fallacy of that "model 50's family" is what
lead to your "highly dysfunctional realtioships of today." Back then they
pretended everything was hunky dory. Today we know better. If you want the
glory back, join Bill and stick your head in the sand.

Gini wrote:
"Fred" wrote
....................
What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that people take
responsibility?
==
Not at all--In fact we agree. She had the responsibility to not have sex
when she was ovulating
and had the responsibility to know when she is ovulating and the
responsibility to tell him when
she was ovulating. Apparently, she failed to do so. What we seem to have
(systemically, in our society)
is a failure to compel women to accept responsibility for their actions and
decisions and we them condemn
men for not anticipating her lack of responsibility.

I don't think that it is an either/or situation. Both parties bear a
responsibility. What I object to are the representations to the effect
that one party is solely responsible to the exclusion of the other.
Think about it: some men use sanctimonious statements such as "her body,
her choice, her responsibility" to evade their own responsibilities. I
know this because those men conspicuously evade my statement, "his
semen, his choice, his responsibility."

What I'm trying to discuss is taking responsibility. What most are
trying to discuss is evading their own responsibility. And the
responsibility that most seem to be wanting to evade is financial
responsibility.

I am tired of our society treating women like helpless
dependents of the state and of man. It has led to abbhorent behavior by
women and is being swept under the rug at the expense of children.

The problem is that women, having been treated badly by man for a rather
long time, now feel justified in treating men badly in turn. This, of
course, does not resolve the issue; rather, it perpetuates the issue.

For instance, are you aware that mothers are responsible for 2/3 of child abuse
cases and that the bio father is the *least* likely family member to abuse
his children?

That does not surprise me, given the legal construct of the child as
property. The one who has custody of the property is the one most likely
to abuse it. That's especially true if the pregnancy/child was not
wanted in the first place.

"Fred" wrote
...............................................

What I'm trying to discuss is taking responsibility.
==
What you appear to be discussing is *men* taking responsibility for women.
==
.................................................. ...
The problem is that women, having been treated badly by man for a rather
long time, now feel justified in treating men badly in turn.
==
It isn't just women treating men badly--It is systemic--in society and in
family court,
at the *expense* of the children whom it purports to be acting in the best
interest of.
==
..................................
That does not surprise me, given the legal construct of the child as
property. The one who has custody of the property is the one most likely
to abuse it. That's especially true if the pregnancy/child was not wanted
in the first place.
==
Yet--rarely is the child placed in the custody of the father who is often
the better parent.
==

I know why fred made he swallows the seman

"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
Gini wrote:
"Fred" wrote
....................
What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that people take
responsibility?
==
Not at all--In fact we agree. She had the responsibility to not have sex
when she was ovulating
and had the responsibility to know when she is ovulating and the
responsibility to tell him when
she was ovulating. Apparently, she failed to do so. What we seem to have
(systemically, in our society)
is a failure to compel women to accept responsibility for their actions
and decisions and we them condemn
men for not anticipating her lack of responsibility.

I don't think that it is an either/or situation. Both parties bear a
responsibility. What I object to are the representations to the effect
that one party is solely responsible to the exclusion of the other. Think
about it: some men use sanctimonious statements such as "her body, her
choice, her responsibility" to evade their own responsibilities. I know
this because those men conspicuously evade my statement, "his semen, his
choice, his responsibility."

Perhaps they only use that statement because they are cut off from ANY
choice after pregnancy has occurred--perhaps if both parties were goven
equal treatment form the outset--in other words, perhaps if women were told
that the man would have the child every other week, and that she would pay
$x per week in child support when he had the child, men would feel
differently. But to be told that she gets all the rights and the only thing
he gets to do is pay money and see the child at her whim makes it hard to
feel like a father. Let the man actually BE a father and see how fast the
"her body her responsibility" changes for most of them


What I'm trying to discuss is taking responsibility. What most are trying
to discuss is evading their own responsibility. And the responsibility
that most seem to be wanting to evade is financial responsibility.

I don't agree. I think they are discussing having an equal say in the life
of their own child--rather than being told that all they are good for is
$$$$.


I am tired of our society treating women like helpless
dependents of the state and of man. It has led to abbhorent behavior by
women and is being swept under the rug at the expense of children.

The problem is that women, having been treated badly by man for a rather
long time, now feel justified in treating men badly in turn. This, of
course, does not resolve the issue; rather, it perpetuates the issue.

Yes, it does. So why don't we get busy and make it clear that both parents
are now bound to each other by the child and they better get busy and act
like adults for the sake of the child. Mom has to give up 50% of the time
with the child and pay her fair share, and Dad has to be a parent as well as
paying only his fair share. Equal. Sounds good.


For instance, are you aware that mothers are responsible for 2/3 of child
abuse
cases and that the bio father is the *least* likely family member to
abuse his children?

That does not surprise me, given the legal construct of the child as
property. The one who has custody of the property is the one most likely
to abuse it. That's especially true if the pregnancy/child was not wanted
in the first place.

Maybe if things were more equal, we would see far less abuse, because nobody
would feel overburdened.