A Parenting & kids forum. ParentingBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ParentingBanter.com forum » misc.kids » Kids Health
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Dear john and yuri



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old December 19th 07, 03:45 PM posted to misc.kids.health, misc.health.alternative
Vaccine-man
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Dear john and yuri

Dear john and yuri,

It looks like you are both 0 for 2 in recent weeks in your
misinformation campaign. We have debunked your assertions that Sabin
was against vaccination and that Greenberg stated that the Salk polio
vaccine was "ineffective and dangerous". So, I would like both of you
to acknowledge this fact here on these newsgroups and john, you need
to remove those false statements from your web site.

Also, each of you give me 50 push-ups, if you can.

Thank you
  #2  
Old December 19th 07, 06:07 PM posted to misc.kids.health,misc.health.alternative
JOHN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 583
Default Dear john and yuri


"Vaccine-man" wrote in message
...
Dear john and yuri,

It looks like you are both 0 for 2 in recent weeks in your
misinformation campaign. We have debunked your assertions that Sabin
was against vaccination and that Greenberg stated that the Salk polio
vaccine was "ineffective and dangerous". So, I would like both of you
to acknowledge this fact here on these newsgroups and john, you need
to remove those false statements from your web site.

Also, each of you give me 50 push-ups, if you can.

Thank you


sure, if you can find where on my website sabin and greenberg say that, as I
can't find it

eg greenberg http://www.whale.to/vaccine/greenberg_h.html


  #3  
Old December 19th 07, 07:22 PM posted to misc.kids.health, misc.health.alternative
Vaccine-man
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Dear john and yuri

On Dec 19, 10:07 am, "JOHN" wrote:

sure, if you can find where on my website sabin and greenberg say that, as I
can't find it

eg greenberghttp://www.whale.to/vaccine/greenberg_h.html


Lines 7 and 8. Thanks for correcting that, and don't forget the push-
ups!
  #4  
Old December 19th 07, 07:44 PM posted to misc.kids.health, misc.health.alternative
The One True Zhen Jue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 180
Default Dear john and yuri

On Dec 19, 9:45 am, Vaccine-man wrote:
Dear john and yuri,

It looks like you are both 0 for 2 in recent weeks in your
misinformation campaign. We have debunked your assertions that Sabin
was against vaccination and that Greenberg stated that the Salk polio
vaccine was "ineffective and dangerous". So, I would like both of you
to acknowledge this fact here on these newsgroups and john, you need
to remove those false statements from your web site.

Also, each of you give me 50 push-ups, if you can.


You should have prefaced that comment with "You are disorganized, grab-
asstic pieces of amphibian ****!"
After all, they are child-hating, anti-vac liars.



Thank you


  #5  
Old December 19th 07, 11:46 PM posted to misc.kids.health,misc.health.alternative
tkavanag
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Dear john and yuri


"JOHN" wrote in message
...

"Vaccine-man" wrote in message
...
Dear john and yuri,

It looks like you are both 0 for 2 in recent weeks in your
misinformation campaign. We have debunked your assertions that Sabin
was against vaccination and that Greenberg stated that the Salk polio
vaccine was "ineffective and dangerous". So, I would like both of you
to acknowledge this fact here on these newsgroups and john, you need
to remove those false statements from your web site.

Also, each of you give me 50 push-ups, if you can.

Thank you


sure, if you can find where on my website sabin and greenberg say that, as
I can't find it

eg greenberg http://www.whale.to/vaccine/greenberg_h.html


As I wrote elsewhere, and with updating:

In May of 1960, Dr. Ratner chaired a panel discussion, at the 120th Annual
Meeting of the Illinois Medical Society to review the increasing rise in
paralytic polio in the U.S. The proceedings were reprinted in the August,
1960, Illinois Medical Journal which exposed the Salk vaccine as a frank
and ineptly disguised fraud. One of the experts on the panel, statistician
Dr. Bernard Greenberg, who went on to testify at Congressional hearings,
revealed how data had been manipulated to hide the dangers and
ineffectiveness of the vaccine from the pubic. Dr. Greenberg explained
that the perceived overall reduction in polio cases was achieved by
changing the criteria by which polio was diagnosed. (2)


The citation in the above quote (note 2) is to that well known medical
authority: "J.I. Rodale: The Encyclopedia of Common Diseases, Rodale Books
Inc., Emmaus Pennsylvania (1962). " It is so well known and respected that
my local public library has taken the 1976 edition (apparently the latest
one offered) off their shelves as being "out of date."

Dr. Herbert Ratner did chair a panel discussion at the May 1960 meetings of
the IMS. The panel consisted of Dr. Herald Cox, the aforementioned Dr.
Greenberg, and Dr. Herman Kleinman. Of these, only Ratner and Kleinman were
MDs; Cox was Sc.D, and Greenberg, like me, a Ph.D. The proceedings (edited
from a transcript) were printed the August and September issues of the
Illinois Medical Journal (IMJ). Funny how only the August issue ever gets
mentioned on the web.

Yesterday [Saturday, Dec. 15, 2007] I read those two articles at the
University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey (UMDNJ) over in Newark.
Unfortunately, their copier was down, so I could not make copies; but I did
take notes.

Then I tried to track down the oft-cited HR 10541 at Seton Hall Law School
Rodino Library. But their Congressional Serial Set only goes back to the
1970s. They sent me to the Newark Public Library, which has many
Congressional resources, but not this one. But the NPL did give me the
correct citation: not HR 10541, but "Intensive Immunization Programs", and
"Y4in8/4:Im6." [don't ask me what that code means.] So, via Lexus-Nexus, I
found that Rutgers Gov Pubs has both a microfiche and a hardcopy.
Interestingly, reading the Nexus-Lexus catalog copy, I noticed that while
the list of witnesses at the HR 10541 hearings included about 10 people, it
did *not* list Dr. Greenberg.

I went down to Rutgers this morning [Sunday, Dec. 16, 2007] and read an
original hard copy of the HR 10541 hearings. Fortunately their copiers were
working.

First conclusion, intimated by the above "witness list": despite numerous
citations [including the quote from Rodale] that he did, Dr. Greenberg did
not, and I emphasize *did not*, "testify at Congressional hearings" on HR
10541. Rather, almost the entire text of the IMJ transcripts were reprinted
as pages 90-109 of the Hearing of the Committee on Interstate and Foreign
Commerce on "Intensive Immunization Programs."

Note: the above referenced URL: "eg greenberg
http://www.whale.to/vaccine/greenberg_h.html" is a link to the paragraph:
] Bernard Greenberg (late Dean -- School of Public Health, University of N.
] Carolina) who -- during the polio epidemics of the 50's -- chaired the
] Committee on Evaluation and Standards for the American Public Health
] Association, submitted testimony to the Congressional Hearings on polio
] vaccines (HR0541, 1962). "

Here the active "testified" is changed to the passive "submitted testimony."
But this is doubly erroneous. First of all, this was not "testimony," which
implies statements given under oath: there were no oaths involved in the
1960 panel discussion. Then, Greenberg himself did not submit the
"testimony," someone else did. Note also that the number of the bill is in
error.

The above URL, http://www.whale.to/vaccine/greenberg_h.html itself includes
a link to its source, http://www.mercola.com/2000/feb/6/vaccine.htm

{Note: that particular page is difficult to access. I got through it once,
avoiding giving my email. YMMV}

In the full article, "Universal Childhood Immunization," following the above
paragraph, the next paragraph reverts to the active voice, "It is of further
interest that Dr. Greenberg testified ..." But again, he did *not*
"testify."

And, after a short -- two sentence -- paragraph, comes this: "A
distinguished interdisciplinary medical panel moderated at the 120th Annual
meeting of the Illinois State medicial society ... B. Greenberg
*contributed* the following observation..." That 120th Annual Meeting was
the 1960 panel discussion whose transcript was attached to the House record
on HR 10541 in 1962. But here Greenberg's comments are not "testimony" but
merely a "contribution." Of course, there are no citations in the
mercola.com "newsletter", so unless one knew that the "testimony" and
"contibution" refered to the same original 1960 panel text, one might be
mislead into thinking that they were separate documents. Good scholarship,
eh.

HR 10541 was passed (after House amendments {to exclude Christian Scientists
who objected on reliogious grounds}, and with no Senate hearings) as the
Vaccination Assistance Act of 1962, US Statutes at Large 76:1155.

In the following discussion, page number citations will refer to the 1962
Congressional reprint of the 1960 IMS panel discussion.

{Aside: there are a few web cites to HR 10541 pages 110 and above. These are
to the reprint of an article from the Chicago Sunday Times magazine of Mar.
5, 1961 [another highly respected medical source ;-)], by Joan Beck,
entitled "The Truth About the Polio Vaccines: Do Salk Shots Really Prevent
Polio." It
consists largely of direct quotes from the 1960 IMS panel.}

Apparently the above cite from the 1962 Rodale Encyclopedia article (if it
is correct) is the earliest source of the claim that Greenberg testified on
HR 10541. I can trace Web citations back to about 1996, but since many Web
sources liberally grab from each other, the trail of citations is unclear.

But to now the crux of the matter: at the 1960 panel discussion, reprinted
in 1962, Dr. Greenberg did say, "My primary concern, my only concern, is the
very misleading way that most of this data has been handled from a
statistical point of view" (1962:94), and he did use the word "manipulated"
once, ["A scientific examination of the data, and the manner in which the
data were manipulated, will reveal that the true effectiveness of the
present Salk vaccine is unknown and greatly over rated" (1962:95)]. That is,
Greenberg *did* call into question the effectiveness of the vaccine
(Rodale's above "ineffectiveness"), but that was only because the
statistical methods of analysis were faulty, not because he thought the
vaccine was faulty.

In my reading of the text, neither Greenberg personally, or the panel as a
whole, concluded that the "vaccine [was] a frank and ineptly disguised
fraud" or that "data had been manipulated to hide the dangers." Neither the
words "fraud," "hide," nor "dangers" occur in the transcript.

Indeed, Dr. Greenberg's final comment on the matter (and remember he was
speaking as a statistician, not as an MD):

"I am agnostic [as to the effectiveness of Salk] like Dr. Kleinman. I am
sorry that I do not know what the effectiveness of the Salk vaccine is.
Since nothing else is available, there seems to be no alternative but to
push the use of it. I don't think we should do so in ignorance, nor too
complacently, believing that as long as we have some partially effective
there is no need to have something better. The USPHS is, in effect, saying,
"Let's face it: we were burned the last time by getting into this business
to quickly; so thius time we are going to be more cautious.' By being more
cautious, we may make a mistake by accepting a better polio vaccine too
slowly. And that's what I am trying to emphasize: They must realize they are
making this mistake possible. The issue must be pursued." (1962:103)

Conclusions:

As noted above, Greenberg did note how data had been handled in a "very
misleading way." But he ascribed much of that to the mass media, singling
out a "recent Associated Press release" (1962:95), not to a 'medical
establishment' conspiracy [single quotes enclose my terms]

Greenberg did describe how the methods for calculating incidents of polio
had changed from 1955 to 1959. But at no point did he, nor anyone else on
the panel, ascribe this to malicious intent by a 'medical establishment.'
Indeed, he explicitly commented that the post-1959 were "*improved* methods
of
diagnosis" (1962:97) [my emphasis].

Again, Greenberg did question the effectiveness of the Salk vaccine as being
unknown because of the statistical problems, but not of vaccines in general.
Indeed, Greenberg eagerly awaited both a live virus vaccine (more
effective), and an oral vaccine (as the primary route of polio infection was
oral).

Ultimately, the way the 1960 panel discussion is being presented today is
probably even more misleading than the way the 1955-59 statistics were then.

There's lies, damned lies, and statistics; and then there's the Web.

Thomas W. Kavanagh, Ph.D.
Seton Hall University


  #6  
Old December 20th 07, 03:14 AM posted to misc.kids.health,misc.health.alternative
D. C. Sessions
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 464
Default Dear john and yuri

In message , The One True Zhen Jue wrote:

You should have prefaced that comment with "You are disorganized, grab-
asstic pieces of amphibian ****!"


On behalf of the Society for the Prevention of Insults to
Fecal Matter ...

--
| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable |
| e-mail address. Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel. |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com. |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions --------------+
  #7  
Old December 20th 07, 10:07 AM posted to misc.kids.health,misc.health.alternative
JOHN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 583
Default Dear john and yuri


"The One True Zhen Jue" wrote in message
...


You should have prefaced that comment with "You are disorganized, grab-
asstic pieces of amphibian ****!"
After all, they are child-hating, anti-vac liars.



Vax zealots, don't you just love the mind set

"At the main hospital in Mbarara during that month of 1977 more than 600
children had died following polio vaccination. 600 children ! ----Kihura
Nkuba (Nov 2002) http://www.whale.to/a/nkuba_h.html
[1921] There are no adequate statistics showing these fatalities, but it may
be estimated that in England and Wales no fewer than 6,000 Infants are
Killed every Year by Vaccination. This is perhaps the least part of the
damage. The Great Damage is that caused to Teeth, Eyesight and Constitution,
by the illness of vaccinia forced upon the infant at the most critical and
delicate period of its life. [1921] Vaccination and the State By Arnold
Lupton MP. http://www.whale.to/vaccine/antivacc...ue_quotes.html

[1880] That since Vaccination has been rendered obligatory, infantile
syphilis (under one year old) has been increased in England, according to a
Parliamentary return, dated February 25th, 1880, from 472 per million of
births in 1847, to 1,736 per million in 1877, or fourfold; and that other
inoculable diseases, such as pyaemia, scrofula, erysipelas, and bronchitis,
were also augmented in infants. In England, the increase of inoculable
diseases was 20 per cent., notwithstanding an expenditure of 200 millions
sterling since 1850 in sanitary works. Another Parliamentary return (No.
443, Session 1877) demonstrates that 25,000 babies are yearly sacrificed by
diseases excited by Vaccination. International Anti-Vaccination League
points against vaccination 1880




  #8  
Old December 20th 07, 07:41 PM posted to misc.kids.health, misc.health.alternative
Vaccine-man
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Dear john and yuri

There are two major problems with your post.

1. John and the other antivac wacks do not accept logic and rationale.
They are both illogical and irrational to them.

2. By the time they get to the third paragraph, they've already
forgotten what was in the first paragraph. Thus, it is essential that
you keep your rebuttals to two paragraphs or less.

Thank you.

(ps - nice work)
  #9  
Old December 20th 07, 09:45 PM posted to misc.kids.health,misc.health.alternative
Peter Bowditch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,038
Default Dear john and yuri

Vaccine-man wrote:

There are two major problems with your post.

1. John and the other antivac wacks do not accept logic and rationale.
They are both illogical and irrational to them.

2. By the time they get to the third paragraph, they've already
forgotten what was in the first paragraph. Thus, it is essential that
you keep your rebuttals to two paragraphs or less.


I've often wondered about the "Goldfish Phenomenon" exhibited by
quackery supporters, where they are told something but forget it
within a very short space of time. There's a PhD or two in there.


Thank you.

(ps - nice work)


--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
  #10  
Old December 21st 07, 02:27 AM posted to misc.kids.health,misc.health.alternative
Yuri Kuchinsky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 201
Default Dear john and yuri


"Vaccine-man" wrote in message
...
Dear john and yuri,

It looks like you are both 0 for 2 in recent weeks in your
misinformation campaign. We have debunked your assertions that Sabin
was against vaccination


I never said that "Sabin was against vaccination". You have debunked
nothing.

and that Greenberg stated that the Salk polio
vaccine was "ineffective and dangerous".


I never said this.

So, I would like both of you
to acknowledge this fact here on these newsgroups and john, you need
to remove those false statements from your web site.

Also, each of you give me 50 push-ups, if you can.


Obviously "Vaccine-man" must be talking about some other "yuri" who might be
guilty of these things...

Hallucinations?

Yuri.

"My own personal view is that vaccines are unsafe and worthless... I no
longer believe that vaccines have any role to play in the protection of the
community or the individual. -- Dr Vernon Coleman MB
http://www.vernoncoleman.com/vaccines.htm



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
John Wolf aka Bible John heard loud and clear on national radio! Jason Gastrich Solutions 1 July 27th 05 11:39 PM
Attention all Bible John aka John Wolf haters! Jason Gastrich Solutions 0 July 2nd 05 12:00 AM
The criminal JOhn Gagon has just become a Kathleen. His latest post reads just like her paranoid schizophrenic posts..welcome to the club of psychotics John Gagon aka Hylander aka shane aka Lord Alfred Henry troll King of alt. support. autism Xi Chen General 1 June 9th 05 12:51 PM
Dear Prudence Dusty Child Support 4 October 18th 04 04:50 AM
Dear Abbey, for KIDS is " Dear Diana" Ruth Luce Solutions 0 September 6th 03 04:43 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 ParentingBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.