Bill Cosby - NAACP leaders stunned by remarks of prominent comedian

On Sat, 22 May 2004 12:50:10 GMT, "Fletch F. Fletch"
wrote:

and many do not and/or can not speak English.

They do. But they don't speak your dialect. Nor do you speak the
Queen's dialect, and I'm sure that there are British people who look
down their nose at you for that fault.

But those British people do not sit in nearly all of the seats of power in
this country, so there is no consequence other than the disdain of a few
Brits. The consequence of speaking only ebonics is *obvious*. I'd fall off
my damn chair if I ever heard a Supreme Court Justice or a Cabinet
Secretary, etc. speaking ebonics and so would you I presume.

I don't think ebonics is taught anywhere in the United States. Even
black people decided it was a bunch of doo doo.

Slainte,
Fletch

Holger


http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm

Donna Metler wrote:
I teach in the inner city. And I've heard a lot of very educated
people who can slide back and forth between the local dialect and
more formal speech. Heck, after 7 years, I can do it. So can my
students. Dialect and slang is as much a way of shutting the outside
world out as anything else. IOW, they don't particularly WANT to be
understood by people who don't make an effort to understand them.
Same with any other subgroup.

Except that other subgroups seem to eventually prevail.

I strongly suggest reading Ruby Payne. She's researched generational
poverty and the social/familial situation around it. A great deal of
the things you seem to be objecting to are features of that
particular ses group, not a specific racial group. Middle class
people do not have the same mentalities and behaviors that the very
wealthy culture does (and it takes significant work for someone who
develops wealth later to "fit in" with this culture). The same holds
in generational poverty vs. generational middle class behaviors.

Is she legit? It kind of looks like her main deal is selling books and
seminars.

Slainte,
Fletch

Christopher Weeks wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote:

[Blacks] don't understand that they should value
education and speaking, walking, sitting, etc., correctly.

Are you serious? Do the rest of us all think this is hilarious, or is
it just me?

Chris

Not much on this issue is hilarious. Clearly there are racists unleashing
their hatred around here. But it is also clear (at least by what I have
read and my experience) that there is a 1 SD difference between whites and
blacks on standardized tests, asians score even better. In my work (network
research), I notice that I have many asian and white colleagues, and almost
no black colleagues. It bothers me, but it is what I would expect in my
area from a black gaussian shifted 1 SD to the left. As far as I can tell,
this issue is very real, and its causes need to be understood. As this
problem currently seems to be intractable, I'm guessing we don't understand
enough yet.

Slainte,
Fletch

On Sat, 22 May 2004, Holger Dansk wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2004 06:27:29 -0500, "Donna Metler"
wrote:

I teach in the inner city. And I've heard a lot of very educated people who
can slide back and forth between the local dialect and more formal speech.
Heck, after 7 years, I can do it. So can my students. Dialect and slang is
as much a way of shutting the outside world out as anything else. IOW, they
don't particularly WANT to be understood by people who don't make an effort
to understand them. Same with any other subgroup.


I strongly suggest reading Ruby Payne. She's researched generational poverty
and the social/familial situation around it. A great deal of the things you
seem to be objecting to are features of that particular ses group, not a
specific racial group. Middle class people do not have the same mentalities
and behaviors that the very wealthy culture does (and it takes significant
work for someone who develops wealth later to "fit in" with this culture).
The same holds in generational poverty vs. generational middle class
behaviors.

I can speak incorrectly too. Anyone can. The idea is to speak
correctly.

Below is your post done incorrectly.

I teach in de inna' city. Slap mah fro! And I've heard some lot uh very
educated sucka's who can slide back and fo'd between de local dialect
and mo'e fo'mal speech. Lop some boogie. Heck, afta' 7 years, ah' can do
it. Man! So's can mah' students. Dialect and slang is as much some way
uh shuttin' de outside wo'ld out as nuthin else. IOW, dey duzn't
particularly WANT t'be understood by sucka's who duzn't make an effo't
to dig it dem. WORD! Same wid any oda' subgroup. Jes hang loose, brud. I
strongly suggest eyeballin' Ruby Payne. She's researched generashunal
poverty and da damn social/familial situashun around it. Man! A great
deal uh de doodads ya' seem t'be objectin' t'are features uh dat
particular ses group, not a specific racial group. Jes hang loose, brud.
Middle class sucka's do not gots de same mentalities and behavio's dat
da damn very wealdy culture duz (and it snatch'd significant wo'k fo'
some sucka who develops weald lata' to "fit in" wid dis culture). De
same holds in generashunal poverty vs. generashunal middle class
behavio's.


Your example falls way short of "authentic." You seem to have gotten
sidetracked by jive and slang. Further you wrap it in a traditional
"formal" English structure.

Joni Rathbun wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2004, Holger Dansk wrote:

Below is your post done incorrectly.

I teach in de inna' city. Slap mah fro! And I've heard some lot uh very
educated sucka's who can slide back and fo'd between de local dialect
and mo'e fo'mal speech. Lop some boogie. Heck, afta' 7 years, ah' can do
it. Man! So's can mah' students. Dialect and slang is as much some way
uh shuttin' de outside wo'ld out as nuthin else. IOW, dey duzn't
particularly WANT t'be understood by sucka's who duzn't make an effo't
to dig it dem. WORD! Same wid any oda' subgroup. Jes hang loose, brud. I
strongly suggest eyeballin' Ruby Payne. She's researched generashunal
poverty and da damn social/familial situashun around it. Man! A great
deal uh de doodads ya' seem t'be objectin' t'are features uh dat
particular ses group, not a specific racial group. Jes hang loose, brud.
Middle class sucka's do not gots de same mentalities and behavio's dat
da damn very wealdy culture duz (and it snatch'd significant wo'k fo'
some sucka who develops weald lata' to "fit in" wid dis culture). De
same holds in generashunal poverty vs. generashunal middle class
behavio's.


Your example falls way short of "authentic." You seem to have gotten
sidetracked by jive and slang. Further you wrap it in a traditional
"formal" English structure.

It appearz to have been done uzing "The Jive Server"
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~eclectic/toys/jive.html

Input your mainstream English, it returnz IQ-75_OOW_Breeding_Ebonicz...

W'at it be, momma..

"Fletch F. Fletch" wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
Those comments you question at the beginning of the post, are
*Cosby's* not mine. He has donated millions to support DAFNz in
college. He has a much better grasp of DAFNhood than you do, Bob.

Cosby is a comedian. Unless I had the full text of his comments with
all the context, and indeed preferably a video, since delivery is part
of his humor, I would not interpret his comments any differently than
I did. As posted, they were baloney, and because you posted them
(regardless of who said them originally), they were racist baloney.

Everything you say is racist baloney (even if you were to agree with
me this would be the case), because you are a subhuman racist.

With all due respect, Cosby has a PhD in education. And if you have ever
listened to him talk, you would know that he is a very smart, thoughtful
person. You do a disservice to him by dismissing him as a comedian.

I'm sure he is very smart, and can make intelligent comments about
education. But the reporting of the gala seems to make it clear that
while his comments had bite, the entertainers who were present were
performing their trade, and one cannot judge a comment without context
as well as sound and video information that would convey whether his
remark was serious, or comedically timed. In particular, the snippets
that were quoted sound like the sort of thing that he says in his
comedy routines, taking real life situations and phrasing them in
exaggerated but not wholly inaccurate manner. He had a routine about
special education on one of his earliest albums in the 60s which was
just that sort of thing that would sound politically incorrect and
offensive if spoken at an education conference, but was quite funny on
a comedy album. This gala was somewhere in between, probably with
elements of both.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2004 02:11:50 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:
They speak a different dialect. This has always been a country of
multiple dialects, and the dialectal variation was never nearly as
extreme as it is in much smaller England. You can't talk the way
"these people talk" (not that it had anything to do with "lower
economics", which the poster is clearly using as a euphemism for
race), but I'll bet you can't talk Cockney or Yorkshire either, and
you probably can't understand them half as well as you could
understand these folk.

No, it is not a dialect.

Yes it is. YOur opinion against those of a professional linguist, and
I'll believe the linguist.

It's not my opinion.

Yes it is.

I'm trying to tell you the truth.

"Truth" is for the religious and ideologues.

I'm not
interested in what some fool who calls himself a linguist has to say
about anything.

That's why you post ignorant opinions.

It is a very poor and wrong value system that many black people have.

That is not what determines how they talk on a street corner.

Oh yes it is. It is what makes them not sit, walk, talk, and, in
general, act correctly.

You don't have the right to define "correctly". Especially since you
behave incorrectly in the newsgroups by talking like a racist.

In short, they don't know how to act.

Racists don't know how to act. Or rather they choose to act
incorrectly.

They do not value education and the good things in life.

Perhaps, but not relevant to their language.

It's relevant to their everything.

Your credentials are ...?

Without a sense of values a person is lost with nothing to
build character and his/her life on. They don't know how to act or
behave.

I know a lot of people, of a variety of cultures, who know perfectly
well how to behave, and choose not to do so anyway.

Those are people who are really sick. Anyone who knows right from wrong
and chooses the wrong is in bad shape.

Which is why I abuse you racists, because you are precisely the ones I
have in mind. "Really sick". Nice self-diagnosis. Get thee to a
shrink.

They simply don't value your values. That doesn't mean that they have no values.

They don't have a value system at all.

Your expertise in determining this is ...?

They were raised without ever learning any.

You see some people on a street corner and you know their life history
on hearing them? Not.

It's very important that they get this corrected immediately if
they ever want to amount to anything.

Maybe they don't. They aren't obliged to.

No, that's true. They are not obliged to live. They can just end it
all if they so choose. Many, with no sense of values, commit suicide.

But they do have values. Just not values that you necessarily approve
of. Or maybe the same values but a different priority.

Black people have been in this country for hundreds of years

I doubt that any black person has been in this country much more than
100 years, and most of those are in old-age homes.

Their race has been here for hundreds of years.

People are human beings. They are not a race.

and many do not and/or can not speak English.

They do. But they don't speak your dialect. Nor do you speak the
Queen's dialect, and I'm sure that there are British people who look
down their nose at you for that fault.

You are really into denial and are really confused.

You are really into racism, and are really subhuman.

Where did live most of your life?

Wealthy suburban DC area at this point. A few years ago, it would
have been well-off, working class San Francisco suburbia. But I've
now been here longer than I spent there while growing up.

You must get a value system quick.

I have one, and IMHO it is far superior to yours. And it doesn't
demean someone for their manner of speech.

Some can, some can't. I know some of each category that cannot make
themselves understood in English after having been here for a few
years.

But there is no "correctly" wrt to pronunciation, anyway, despite your
prejudice.

You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything.

Nope. Even with the most rigorous of subjects, mathematics, there are
usually multiple ways to solve a problem, and NO ONE is obliged to do
it your way, unless you are paying them to do so.

Blacks don't give a damn. They don't understand that they should value
education and speaking, walking, sitting, etc., correctly.

They aren't obliged to accept your value system.

They aren't even obliged to live. Some choose not to.

Some racists commit suicide too. I wish more of them would.

Where did you grow up? Must have been a ghetto.

Nope. My childhood was lily white until high school, and the blacks I
had in my high school classes weren't unlike your stereotypes. But
then I met a Nazi racist like yourself, and decided that I wasn't like
him. My sister a year later had a black girl as one of her closer
friends and she was no academic slouch. Then I went away to college,
and while there weren't a lot of blacks there, all but one of them was
fully capable of holding his own in college (and there were no small
number of whites who couldn't). Jump ahead 10 years, and I had a
black boss who knew his business as well as anyone. I've seen badly
behaving blacks, and badly behaving white trash, but I've seen good
people as well. I've learned, unlike you, to judge people as
individuals, and not as members of a stereotype.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

Holger Dansk wrote:
What does it even mean to sit incorrectly?

Slouching is very incorrect.

Why?

It means to walk, stand, or sit with a slouch. A slouch is a loose or drooping gait or posture.

Okay.

It's usually indicative of a lazy or incompetent person,

No. It's usually indicative of a relaxed person who for some
unspecified reason doesn't much care about his posture at the moment.

Lazy people are indeed often relaxed. Incompetent people may be
either relaxed or tense, depending on how they deal with their
incompetence. Well-adjusted people are also often relaxed.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

Holger Dansk wrote:

You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything.

I sure don't. I'm confused about the "correct" way to sit, for
instance. I sort of figure that if your butt is on a chair, bench,
couch, the ground, the back of a car, the edge of a table, etc. and your
weight is mainly supported by that butt, allowing your legs and feet to
rest, then you're sitting correctly. Right?

What does it even mean to sit incorrectly?

Slouching is very incorrect. It means to walk, stand, or sit with a
slouch. A slouch is a loose or drooping gait or posture. It's usually
indicative of a lazy or incompetent person, who, by the way, may be
called a slouch.

What makes it incorrect? What makes the lack of a slouch superior?

Chris

Fletch F. Fletch wrote:

You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do
everything.

I sure don't. I'm confused about the "correct" way to sit, for
instance. I sort of figure that if your butt is on a chair, bench,
couch, the ground, the back of a car, the edge of a table, etc. and
your weight is mainly supported by that butt, allowing your legs and
feet to rest, then you're sitting correctly. Right?

What does it even mean to sit incorrectly?

It means to sit in a way that leads to injury, short term or long term,
through falling or improper body posture. It means to sit in a way such
that you damage things. There is also a correct way to look at a monitor
and type while you are sitting correctly. Set that up wrong and work at a
computer for a few years. You'll find what incorrect means.

OK, but what's it to you? Everyone does stuff with, for and to their
bodies that could be called sub-optimal. And really, the best way to
look at these factors is through risk assessment. There is a risk that
poor posture will lead to late-life back trauma. There is a risk that
poor wrist positioning will lead to nervous disorders after years of
typing. So those are incorrect, right? What about driving? Is driving
incorrect because there is a risk of injury and death?

I mean, the implications here are pretty broad and it certainly sounds
to many of us like a very broad brush painting along lines of truth are
being used to obscure racism. What's your agenda?

Chris