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So much for the claims about Sweden



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 3rd 03, 04:43 AM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default So much for the claims about Sweden

"For a number of years, various media have carried reports stating
that child abuse has increased in Sweden since the passage of the 1979
corporal punishment ban. This statement, which was recently given new
life in the Canadian Charter Challenge to Section 43 of the Criminal
Code, is completely erroneous. All available evidence indicates that
Sweden has been extremely successful in reducing rates of child
physical abuse over the past few decades and that reduction has been
maintained since the passage of the corporal punishment ban. The
purpose of this brief report is to disseminate accurate information on
this issue."

Click below to view the article in its entirety.

http://nospank.net/durrant2.htm
  #2  
Old November 3rd 03, 08:16 AM
Greg Hanson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default So much for the claims about Sweden

Kane's recent message seeks to disprove a claim,
but who made the claim and where?

Where was the claim that Sweden's child abuse
rate went up due to the no-spanking law made?
Did Kane disprove something nobody on here said?

What HAS been said about Sweden?
SWEDISH LAW AGAINST SPANKING IS UNENFORCED!
It may be illegal, but not ENFORCED, and so it continues.
The no-spanking law in Sweden was a giant placebo.
All REPORTS of attributable RESULTS are bogus!

Below are Kane's own messages pointing to this.

From: Kane )
Subject: Murder Swedish style & crime higher than you think
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking Date: 2003-09-13 11:18:09 PST

snip

In other words, there is a high likelihood there is some other factor
than spanking or not ( in fact I think it was YOU folks from the
pro-spank nitwit crowd that claimed Swedish citizens are spanking
their children despite the law ) that is causing a reporting of a
higher crime rate.

snip

bingo bango bongo.

Stoneman

From: Kane )
Subject: Greg overdoses on Stupid Pills
was....Murder Swedish style & crime higher than you think
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking,
alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.support.foster-parents, misc.kids
Date: 2003-09-15 18:33:13 PST
Greg wote
Fern: I think this is just the tip of the iceberg (accidental pun)
when it comes to wonderful non spanking Scandinavia.


Well now, that is not quite accurate. One of the things Doan crowed
over, and I'm sure made The Plant giggle, was that parents in
Scandinavia do not have to be afraid of inforcement...the law is
writen without that feature, and they still, and this made Doan howl
with glee, spank there children rather a lot.

snip insults

"our laid-back, neutral, furniture-loving neighbour, where
slapping a child is a criminal offence"


Is it? I'm not sure. I haven't read the law. In most places it's a
civil matter under no cp laws. In Sweden, as I've noted, it is NO
crime or offense at all. The law is a plea to stop the abuse of
spanking.

snip insults and swearing

http://cphpost.sites.itera.dk/default.asp?id=34392
Murder-Swedish style Copenhagen Post(Denmark)14 September 2003
New Interpol international crime statistics revealed, rather
surprisingly, that Sweden, our laid-back, neutral, furniture-loving
neighbour, where slapping a child is a criminal offence, tops the
European crime league in murder, serious assaults and robberies, and
even surpasses the USA in violent crime. The murder rate in Sweden is
three times as high as Denmark, four times as high as Norway, and
twice as high as in the USA. In addition, Sweden has twice as many sex
crimes and robberies as this country and 25 times as many violent
assaults. A Swedish National Crime Agency criminologist dismissed the
Interpol figures as 'exaggerated.' 'They claim that there were 900
murders here in 2001, but that also included suicides which have
somehow ended up in the murder column. To say we have a higher murder
rate than the USA is ridiculous,' he said.

-------------------------------------------
  #3  
Old November 3rd 03, 11:59 AM
Dan Sullivan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default So much for the claims about Sweden


"Greg Hanson" wrote in message
om...

Kane's recent message seeks to disprove a claim,
but who made the claim and where?


Google it, Greg.

Where was the claim that Sweden's child abuse
rate went up due to the no-spanking law made?


Google it, Greg.

Did Kane disprove something nobody on here said?


Google it, Greg.

What HAS been said about Sweden?


Probably quite a bit, Greg.

SWEDISH LAW AGAINST SPANKING IS UNENFORCED!
It may be illegal, but not ENFORCED, and so it continues.
The no-spanking law in Sweden was a giant placebo.
All REPORTS of attributable RESULTS are bogus!


Citations please, Greg.

Dan


  #4  
Old November 3rd 03, 03:48 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default So much for the claims about Sweden

(Greg Hanson) wrote in message . com...
Kane's recent message seeks to disprove a claim,
but who made the claim and where?


It's been a common subject in aps. The claim that child abuse went UP
after the law is bogus on the fact that REPORTING went up. Prior to
the law Sweden was such a spank happy country it simply wasn't
considered important to report.

Where was the claim that Sweden's child abuse
rate went up due to the no-spanking law made?
Did Kane disprove something nobody on here said?


Gosh, I wonder:

From: Greg Hanson )
Subject: No-spank's Inadequate Training


View this article only
Newsgroups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents,
alt.parenting.solutions
Date: 2002-04-08 13:48:33 PST


Eric: Did I understand that right?
No-spanking Sweden hasn't been as successful as
the anti-spank zealots would hope?

They keep bringing up Sweden, over and over,
but it's NOT a great success story eh?

I always just thought of thier reportage as being
like the amazing medical cure that works
"IN LABORATORY RATS".
Message 10 in thread
From: Kane )
Subject: No-spank's Inadequate Training


View this article only
Newsgroups: alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.parenting.spanking, alt.support.foster-parents,
alt.parenting.solutions
Date: 2002-04-08 20:55:36 PST


(Greg Hanson) wrote in message . com...
Eric: Did I understand that right?


Gee, if you can break off your circle-jerk for a second maybe you'll
calm down enough to get your brain will work again.

No-spanking Sweden hasn't been as successful as
the anti-spank zealots would hope?


Anyone that has bothered to read the history on child abuse and
spanking in Sweden knows perfectly well that prior to the law what was
NEVER reported as abuse is now reported as such. Weekly or more often
spankings with switches, paddles, straps, whatever the favorite tool
of torture might be were common.

And they were of course not reported as abuse. Such behavior now is.

They keep bringing up Sweden, over and over,


Yep. We notice you folks do as well, making assinine claims that it
proves your point.

but it's NOT a great success story eh?


Yes, in fact it is. The percentage of people in Sweden that believe
spanking is a viable means of parenting is now around 35%...a steep
drop from prior to the law.

I always just thought of thier reportage as being
like the amazing medical cure that works
"IN LABORATORY RATS".


No, it's working with parents, real people, not child abusing thugs
and apologist like you though, and as they give up cp and learn better
methods things continue to improve. It has spread to other European
countries as well and it won't be long before you'll see it here.

Now go vomit your **** somewhere someone will believe you.

Bingo, bango, bongo.

Stoneman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




What HAS been said about Sweden?
SWEDISH LAW AGAINST SPANKING IS UNENFORCED!
It may be illegal, but not ENFORCED, and so it continues.
The no-spanking law in Sweden was a giant placebo.
All REPORTS of attributable RESULTS are bogus!

Below are Kane's own messages pointing to this.

From: Kane )
Subject: Murder Swedish style & crime higher than you think
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking Date: 2003-09-13 11:18:09 PST

snip

In other words, there is a high likelihood there is some other factor
than spanking or not ( in fact I think it was YOU folks from the
pro-spank nitwit crowd that claimed Swedish citizens are spanking
their children despite the law ) that is causing a reporting of a
higher crime rate.

snip

bingo bango bongo.

Stoneman

From: Kane )
Subject: Greg overdoses on Stupid Pills
was....Murder Swedish style & crime higher than you think
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking,
alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.support.foster-parents, misc.kids
Date: 2003-09-15 18:33:13 PST
Greg wote
Fern: I think this is just the tip of the iceberg (accidental pun)
when it comes to wonderful non spanking Scandinavia.


Well now, that is not quite accurate. One of the things Doan crowed
over, and I'm sure made The Plant giggle, was that parents in
Scandinavia do not have to be afraid of inforcement...the law is
writen without that feature, and they still, and this made Doan howl
with glee, spank there children rather a lot.

snip insults

"our laid-back, neutral, furniture-loving neighbour, where
slapping a child is a criminal offence"


Is it? I'm not sure. I haven't read the law. In most places it's a
civil matter under no cp laws. In Sweden, as I've noted, it is NO
crime or offense at all. The law is a plea to stop the abuse of
spanking.

snip insults and swearing

http://cphpost.sites.itera.dk/default.asp?id=34392
Murder-Swedish style Copenhagen Post(Denmark)14 September 2003
New Interpol international crime statistics revealed, rather
surprisingly, that Sweden, our laid-back, neutral, furniture-loving
neighbour, where slapping a child is a criminal offence, tops the
European crime league in murder, serious assaults and robberies, and
even surpasses the USA in violent crime. The murder rate in Sweden is
three times as high as Denmark, four times as high as Norway, and
twice as high as in the USA. In addition, Sweden has twice as many sex
crimes and robberies as this country and 25 times as many violent
assaults. A Swedish National Crime Agency criminologist dismissed the
Interpol figures as 'exaggerated.' 'They claim that there were 900
murders here in 2001, but that also included suicides which have
somehow ended up in the murder column. To say we have a higher murder
rate than the USA is ridiculous,' he said.

-------------------------------------------


Seems that Sweden and Denmark (well, one reporter) might have an
argument with the numbers.

Then go back and read the article I cited and linked.

In other words, you and your cronies are as usual full of ****.

Kane
  #5  
Old November 3rd 03, 11:36 PM
LaVonne Carlson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default So much for the claims about Sweden

Greg apparently didn't read the information Kane provided. What a
surprise.

It's scary, isn't it Greg, to read evidence that conflicts with your
opinoin? Better to hide behind smoke screens, I suppose. It's certainly
safer.

LaVonne

Greg Hanson wrote:

Kane's recent message seeks to disprove a claim,
but who made the claim and where?

Where was the claim that Sweden's child abuse
rate went up due to the no-spanking law made?
Did Kane disprove something nobody on here said?

What HAS been said about Sweden?
SWEDISH LAW AGAINST SPANKING IS UNENFORCED!
It may be illegal, but not ENFORCED, and so it continues.
The no-spanking law in Sweden was a giant placebo.
All REPORTS of attributable RESULTS are bogus!

Below are Kane's own messages pointing to this.

From: Kane )
Subject: Murder Swedish style & crime higher than you think
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking Date: 2003-09-13 11:18:09 PST

snip

In other words, there is a high likelihood there is some other factor
than spanking or not ( in fact I think it was YOU folks from the
pro-spank nitwit crowd that claimed Swedish citizens are spanking
their children despite the law ) that is causing a reporting of a
higher crime rate.

snip

bingo bango bongo.

Stoneman

From: Kane )
Subject: Greg overdoses on Stupid Pills
was....Murder Swedish style & crime higher than you think
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking,
alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.support.foster-parents, misc.kids
Date: 2003-09-15 18:33:13 PST
Greg wote
Fern: I think this is just the tip of the iceberg (accidental pun)
when it comes to wonderful non spanking Scandinavia.


Well now, that is not quite accurate. One of the things Doan crowed
over, and I'm sure made The Plant giggle, was that parents in
Scandinavia do not have to be afraid of inforcement...the law is
writen without that feature, and they still, and this made Doan howl
with glee, spank there children rather a lot.

snip insults

"our laid-back, neutral, furniture-loving neighbour, where
slapping a child is a criminal offence"


Is it? I'm not sure. I haven't read the law. In most places it's a
civil matter under no cp laws. In Sweden, as I've noted, it is NO
crime or offense at all. The law is a plea to stop the abuse of
spanking.

snip insults and swearing

http://cphpost.sites.itera.dk/default.asp?id=34392
Murder-Swedish style Copenhagen Post(Denmark)14 September 2003
New Interpol international crime statistics revealed, rather
surprisingly, that Sweden, our laid-back, neutral, furniture-loving
neighbour, where slapping a child is a criminal offence, tops the
European crime league in murder, serious assaults and robberies, and
even surpasses the USA in violent crime. The murder rate in Sweden is
three times as high as Denmark, four times as high as Norway, and
twice as high as in the USA. In addition, Sweden has twice as many sex
crimes and robberies as this country and 25 times as many violent
assaults. A Swedish National Crime Agency criminologist dismissed the
Interpol figures as 'exaggerated.' 'They claim that there were 900
murders here in 2001, but that also included suicides which have
somehow ended up in the murder column. To say we have a higher murder
rate than the USA is ridiculous,' he said.

-------------------------------------------


  #6  
Old November 4th 03, 07:51 AM
Doan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default So much for the claims about Sweden

This is funny! A post which Kane copied from a anti-spanking website is
now treated as gospel by LaVonne!!! Why don't you post the real study
by Durrant and the one by Larzelere on Sweden, LaVonne? Are you afraid
of the truth? ;-)

Doan

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, LaVonne Carlson wrote:

Greg apparently didn't read the information Kane provided. What a
surprise.

It's scary, isn't it Greg, to read evidence that conflicts with your
opinoin? Better to hide behind smoke screens, I suppose. It's certainly
safer.

LaVonne

Greg Hanson wrote:

Kane's recent message seeks to disprove a claim,
but who made the claim and where?

Where was the claim that Sweden's child abuse
rate went up due to the no-spanking law made?
Did Kane disprove something nobody on here said?

What HAS been said about Sweden?
SWEDISH LAW AGAINST SPANKING IS UNENFORCED!
It may be illegal, but not ENFORCED, and so it continues.
The no-spanking law in Sweden was a giant placebo.
All REPORTS of attributable RESULTS are bogus!

Below are Kane's own messages pointing to this.

From: Kane )
Subject: Murder Swedish style & crime higher than you think
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking Date: 2003-09-13 11:18:09 PST

snip

In other words, there is a high likelihood there is some other factor
than spanking or not ( in fact I think it was YOU folks from the
pro-spank nitwit crowd that claimed Swedish citizens are spanking
their children despite the law ) that is causing a reporting of a
higher crime rate.

snip

bingo bango bongo.

Stoneman

From: Kane )
Subject: Greg overdoses on Stupid Pills
was....Murder Swedish style & crime higher than you think
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking,
alt.support.child-protective-services,
alt.support.foster-parents, misc.kids
Date: 2003-09-15 18:33:13 PST
Greg wote
Fern: I think this is just the tip of the iceberg (accidental pun)
when it comes to wonderful non spanking Scandinavia.


Well now, that is not quite accurate. One of the things Doan crowed
over, and I'm sure made The Plant giggle, was that parents in
Scandinavia do not have to be afraid of inforcement...the law is
writen without that feature, and they still, and this made Doan howl
with glee, spank there children rather a lot.

snip insults

"our laid-back, neutral, furniture-loving neighbour, where
slapping a child is a criminal offence"


Is it? I'm not sure. I haven't read the law. In most places it's a
civil matter under no cp laws. In Sweden, as I've noted, it is NO
crime or offense at all. The law is a plea to stop the abuse of
spanking.

snip insults and swearing

http://cphpost.sites.itera.dk/default.asp?id=34392
Murder-Swedish style Copenhagen Post(Denmark)14 September 2003
New Interpol international crime statistics revealed, rather
surprisingly, that Sweden, our laid-back, neutral, furniture-loving
neighbour, where slapping a child is a criminal offence, tops the
European crime league in murder, serious assaults and robberies, and
even surpasses the USA in violent crime. The murder rate in Sweden is
three times as high as Denmark, four times as high as Norway, and
twice as high as in the USA. In addition, Sweden has twice as many sex
crimes and robberies as this country and 25 times as many violent
assaults. A Swedish National Crime Agency criminologist dismissed the
Interpol figures as 'exaggerated.' 'They claim that there were 900
murders here in 2001, but that also included suicides which have
somehow ended up in the murder column. To say we have a higher murder
rate than the USA is ridiculous,' he said.

-------------------------------------------




  #7  
Old November 4th 03, 09:16 AM
Doan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default So much for the claims about Sweden

Instead of post propaganda from a no-spanking website, why not post the
study by Durrant and let's compare data? Do you want to know the truth,
Kane?

Doan


Begin include
Two recent reviews of parental corporal punishment have found little sound
evidence of detrimental child outcomes such as child aggression. This paper
explores whether the 1979 Swedish law against all corporal punishment has
reduced their child abuse. Sweden's 1979 law was welcomed by many as a much
needed policy toward reducing physical child abuse. Surprisingly, this
search located only five published studies with any relevant data. The best
study found that the rate of child abuse was 49% higher in Sweden than in
the United States, comparing a 1980 Swedish national survey with the average
rates from two national surveys in the United States in 1975 and 1985. By
comparison, a retrospective survey of university students in 1981 found that
the Swedish child abuse rate was 21% of the USA rate in the 1960s and the
1970s, prior to the anti-spanking law. More recent Swedish data indicate a
489% increase in one child abuse statistic from 1981 through 1994, as well
as a 672% increase in assaults by minors against minors. The article discusses
possible reasons for this apparent increase in child abuse and calls for
better evaluations of innovative policies intended to reduce societal abuse
and violence.

Poster presented at the XXVI International Congress of Psychology, Montreal,
August 18, 1996.

Where is Evidence That Non-Abusive Corporal Punishment
Increases Aggression?

Two recent reviews of the literature on parental corporal punishment have
found few methodologically sound studies. Further, hardly any of the soundest
studies found detrimental child outcomes associated with corporal punishment.
This paper explores whether there is evidence that the outlawing of corporal
punishment by parents in Sweden and other countries has had any discernible
effect, particularly on child abuse and, to a lesser degree, on child outcomes
such as aggression.

Lyons, Anderson, and Larson (1993) attempted to review all journal articles on
corporal punishment by parents from 1984 through 1993. Only 24 of the 132
articles (17%) included any empirical data on corporal punishment. Less than
half of those (11) investigated corporal punishment as a possible cause of
some other variable. Most (83%) of the studies were cross-sectional, and only
one made any attempt to exclude child abuse from the measure of corporal
punishment.

They concluded that there was empirical evidence supporting one of three
hypotheses: Several studies found that parents were more likely to use corporal
punishment themselves if their parents had used it. There was no sound evidence
that corporal punishment was ineffective, nor that it was associated with child
aggression.

Larzelere (in press) built on their review by extending the search of peer-
reviewed articles to the period 1974 to 1995 plus older articles that met the
inclusion criteria. The inclusion criteria were designed to exclude studies
that were cross-sectional or whose measures emphasized the severity of usage
of corporal punishment. Only 18 studies were found that both met the two
inclusion criteria and limited the sample to children under 13 years of age.
The 8 strongest studies found beneficial outcomes of corporal punishment,
usually in 2- to 6-year-olds. The 10 other studies were prospective (6) or
retrospective (4). Three of them found detrimental outcomes, but only 1 of
those 3 made any attempt to exclude abuse from its measure of corporal
punishment. Further, none of the 10 studies controlled for the initial level
of child misbehavior. This seems to be an important methodological problem,
since the frequency of every type of discipline response tends to be
positively associated with child misbehavior, whether the associations are
cross-sectional or longitudinal (Larzelere, Sather, Schneider, Larson, & Pike,
1996; Larzelere, Schneider, Larson, & Pike, in press). Finally, no alternative
discipline response in any of the 18 studies was associated with more
beneficial child outcomes than was corporal punishment, whereas 7 alternatives
were associated with more detrimental child outcomes, mostly in 2- to
6-year-olds. These reviews suggest that the empirical linkage between
nonabusive corporal punishment and aggression comes only from cross-sectional
studies, studies of teenagers, studies measuring particularly severe forms
of corporal punishment, and, perhaps, studies of punitiveness. This led us
to ask how well current societal experiments are working in countries that
have outlawed all forms of parental use of corporal punishment.

In 1979, Sweden passed a law prohibiting all corporal punishment by parents.
This was hailed as a crucial step in the effort to reduce child abuse (Deley,
1988; Feshbach, 1980; Ziegert, 1983). Several countries have passed similar
laws since then (Norway, Denmark, Finland, Austria, and Cyprus), and
organizations have formed to advocate against parental corporal punishment
throughout the world (e.g., End Physical Punishment of Children [EPOCH]: Radda
Barnen, no date).

This movement represents one of the most sweeping changes ever advocated by
social scientists. In the United States, for example, about 90% of parents
have spanked their 3-year-old children in the past year (Straus, 1983;
Wauchope & Straus, 1990). Some social scientific research has been used to
support the anti-spanking position (e.g., Hyman, 1995; Straus, 1994), but the
reviews summarized above have found such support coming primarily from
methodologically poor studies. Given the inconclusiveness of relevant research
and the importance of the issue, it is desirable to know whether child abuse
has decreased in Sweden following their 1979 anti-spanking law. Accordingly,
this article asks two inter-related questions: (1) To what extent have social
scientists evaluated the effect of the 1979 anti-spanking law in Sweden, and
(2) what do those evaluations indicate about the effects of the anti-spanking
law in reducing child abuse? We also report one finding about Swedish trends
in assaults by minors discovered during our study.

Literature Search for Evaluations

Two procedures were used to find evaluations of the effects of Sweden's anti-
spanking law. First, PsycLit was searched from 1974 through June of 1995 for
all publications that included "Sweden" or "Swedish" and either "punishment"
or "spanking" in their abstracts. Second, Social Sciences Citation Index was
used to identify all articles citing Gelles and Edfeldt (1986) through April
1995, because their study reported a well-done survey of Swedish child abuse
rates one year after the anti-spanking law was passed.

Empirical Evaluations of Sweden's Anti-Spanking Law

Five published studies and one unpublished paper were found that included any
empirical information relevant for evaluating the 1979 anti-spanking law.
Ziegert (1983) published a conceptual, preliminary article on why the law
should be effective. His only empirical data was from a Swedish opinion poll
showing that the percentage of respondents considering corporal punishment
to be necessary had dropped from 53% in 1965 to 35% in 1971 to 26% in 1979 and
1981. In an article comparing Swedish and American use of corporal punishment,
Solheim (1982) reported that 26% of Swedish respondents considered corporal
punishment necessary in 1978. Like Ziegert (1983), Solheim's (1982) article
was mostly nonempirical, discussing such issues as court decisions about
corporal punishment in schools, the 1979 law, and expert opinions. Together
these two articles show that the decline in support for the necessity of
parental corporal punishment in Sweden preceded the 1979 law, and it did not
decrease thereafter, at least through 1981.

A third article reported the rate of child homicides in various European
countries, comparing 1973/1974 with approximately 1987/1988 (Pritchard, 1992).
Note that this compared statistics before and after the 1979 law. The Swedish
child homicide rate was the sixth lowest of the 17 countries at both time
periods. However, it nearly doubled from 1973/1974 to 1986/1987. Sweden's
93% increase in its child homicide rate was the fifth largest percentage
increase among the 17 countries. It should also be noted that the rate of
accidental baby deaths in Sweden was the lowest of the 17 countries at both
time periods. Unlike the child homicide rate, it decreased by 67%
between the two time periods, although 10 of the other 16 countries decreased
their accidental baby death rates by an even larger percentage.

A fourth article compared child abuse rates among university students at one
Swedish university compared to one American university as reported in a 1981
survey (Deley, 1988). Because these were retrospective reports, they were
child abuse rates during the 1960s and the 1970s as these students were growing
up, a time period preceding the 1979 law. The critical question asked whether
a spanking had ever left physical marks that lasted for more than 10 minutes.
Two percent of the Sweden students reported receiving such physical marks from
a spanking, compared to 9.5% of the American students. Although this is far
from a representative sample, this suggests that the child abuse rate in
Sweden was only 21% of the American child abuse rate in the 1960s and 1970s
(i.e., 2.0 divided by 9.5 = .21).

The fifth and best study used telephone surveys of a nationally representative
sample of Swedish parents to measure the rates of spanking and of child abuse
in 1980 (Gelles & Edfeldt, 1986). It used the Conflict Tactics Scale, which
was also used to measure the prevalence of spanking and child abuse in two
National Family Violence Surveys in the USA (Straus & Gelles, 1986; Straus,
Gelles, & Steinmetz, 1980). Gelles and Edfeldt (1986) compared their 1980
Swedish survey only with the 1975 National Family Violence Survey. They
concluded that a smaller percentage of parents were spanking their children in
Sweden than in the United States, but that there were no significant
differences in child abuse rates.

It would have been more appropriate, however, to compare their 1980 Swedish
survey with the 1985 National Family Violence Survey in the USA (Straus &
Gelles, 1986), which reported a 47% lower rate of child abuse in the United
States than in 1975. For one thing, the 1980 Swedish survey was closer to the
1985 USA survey in its method, because both used telephone interviews. In
contrast, the 1975 USA survey used face-to-face interviews. Table 1 gives the
percentage of Swedish and United States parents reporting the use of various
forms of physical aggression in both national surveys in the United States and
the national survey in Sweden. In contrast to Gelles & Edfeldt (1986), we
report whether the Swedish rate was significantly different from the mean USA
rate from both the 1975 and the 1985 surveys. This approach represents a
compromise on the issue of which USA survey is the most appropriate comparison,
and it assumes that the 1980 rates in the USA might have been halfway between
the 1975 and the 1985 rates.


Table 1 Prevalence Rates of Various Forms of Physical Child Abuse in the
United States and Sweden
__________________________________________________ ____________________

United States
Sweden
Type of Violence 1975 1985 1980

1. Threw things at 5.4% 2.7% 3.6%
2. Pushed, grabbed, or shoved 40.5 30.7 49.4***
3. Hit (spanked or slapped) 58.2 54.9 27.5***
4. Kicked, bit, or hit with fist 3.2 1.3 2.2
5. Hit with an object (*1) 13.4 9.7 2.4***
6. Beat up 1.3 .6 3.0***
7. Threatened with a weapon .1 .2 .4
8. Used a weapon .1 .2 .4
Very Severe Violence (4, 6-8) 3.6 1.9 4.0*

__________________________________________________ ______________________
1 In the United States this item referred to attempted or completed
hits. In Sweden, the item referred only to completed hits. The 1975
and 1980 surveys are taken from Gelles & Edfeldt (1986) and the 1985
survey from Straus & Gelles (1986).
*p .05, 2-tailed t-test of proportions, comparing the combined USA
samples with the Swedish sample.
***p .001, same test.


As can be seen, significantly fewer Swedish parents spanked or hit their child
with an object, compared to USA parents. Nonetheless, 27% of Swedish parents
reported spanking or slapping their child in the past year, reflecting
imperfect compliance with the law. In contrast, most of the more serious types
of physical aggression occurred more often in Sweden one year after passing the
anti-spanking law than they did in the United States. The rate of beating a
child up was three times as high in Sweden as in the United States, the rate
of using a weapon was twice as high, and the overall rate of Very Severe
Violence was 49% higher in Sweden than the United States average from the 1975
and 1985 surveys. Except for weapon usage, all of these differences were
significantly different using a test of differences between proportions (Downie
& Heath, 1974, chap. 13), p .05. In addition, the rate of pushing, grabbing,
or shoving was 39% higher in Sweden than the average rate in the United States,
p .001. Thus, the rate of spanking was significantly lower in Sweden than in
the United States, but the rate of other forms of physical aggression,
including child abuse, was significantly higher in Sweden than in the United
States.

Because there were so few published studies with relevant empirical data, we
also included an unpublished field study by Haeuser (1988) and sought
additional data from Swedish sources. As co-founder of EPOCH-USA, an
organization advocating the banning of all corporal punishment in the
United States, Haeuser (1988) explicitly wanted to "promote positive visibility
of this Swedish law in the U.S. and garner U.S. support for the possibility of
promoting U.S. parenting norms which avoid physical punishment" (p. 2). Her
paper was based on her 1981 and 1988 field visits to Sweden, using extensive
interviews of 7 parents and 60 personnel in government, health and human
services, and schools.

In the summary, she concluded, "Most, if not all, believe the law has not
affected the incidence of child abuse" (p. iii). Specifically, she reported
that concerns about sexual abuse and youth gang violence had superseded
concerns about physical child abuse by 1988. She also reported that she
observed toddlers and young children often hitting their parents in her 1988
visit.

According to her, "In 1981 both parents and professionals agreed that parents
had not . . . found constructive alternatives to physical punishment [within
the two years since the law was passed]. For most parents the alternative was
yelling and screaming at their children, and some believed this was equally,
perhaps more, destructive" (p. 22). Haeuser went on to report that most Swedish
parents had developed firmer discipline techniques by 1988.

Haeuser (1988) concluded that the child abuse rate was lower in Sweden than
in the USA based on Swedish police statistics of 6.5 cases of physical child
abuse per 1000 children in 1986. Haeuser compared this to a "U. S. rate of 9.2
to 10.7" per 1000 (Haeuser, 1988, p. 34), but acknowledged, "Since the Swedish
police data omits child abuse cases known to social services but not warranting
police intervention, the actual Swedish incidence rate is probably higher"
(p. 34).

However, the American survey that she cited (National Center on Child Abuse and
Neglect [NCCAN], 1988) indicated that the basis of the rate of 9.2 or 10.7 per
1000 differed from the Swedish police statistic in two ways. First, the USA
rate included sexual and emotional abuse as well as physical abuse. Second,
the USA rate included not only cases known to police, but also cases known to
at least one professional across a wide range of occupations, including those
in child protection services, public health, education (schools, daycare
centers), hospitals, mental health, and social services. If limited to only
physical abuse, the USA rate was only 4.9 or 5.7 known to at least one of
these professionals, depending upon the definition of physical child abuse. If
limited to all three kinds of abuse known specifically to police or sheriffs,
the USA rate was only 2.2 per 1000 (NCCAN, 1988).

The most relevant statistics we have obtained from Sweden are police-record
trends in physical abuse of children under 7 years of age (Wittrock, 1992,
1995). Those records showed a 489% increase in the child abuse rate from 1981
to 1994 (see Figure 1). The same police records also indicated a 672% increase
in assaults by minors against minors (under 15 in Sweden) from 1981 to
1994 (see Figure 2).

Discussion and Conclusions

Although the Swedish anti-spanking law was intended to reduce child abuse, the
best empirical study since then indicated that the rate of child abuse in
Sweden was 49% higher than in the United States one year after the anti-
spanking law was passed. Does this mean that the anti-spanking law increased
the rate of physical child abuse in Sweden? Deley's (1988) retrospective data
indicates that the Swedish physical child abuse rate was 21% of the USA rate
in the 1960s and 1970s. This suggests that the anti-spanking law not only
failed to achieve its goal of reducing child abuse, but that the child abuse
rate increased from 21% to 149% of the equivalent USA rate, a seven-fold
increase relative to the decreasing rate in the United States. We doubt that
the increase was actually that substantial, because Deley used a retrospective
measure with a small unrepresentative sample. Nonetheless, the available
evidence suggests that a sizeable increase in the Swedish child abuse rate
occurred around the time of the 1979 anti-spanking law. The other studies
indicate no changes in attitudes about corporal punishment nor in child
homicides due to the 1979 law.

Was the apparent increase in the Swedish child abuse rate only a temporary
increase following their anti-spanking law? More recent data on Swedish child
abuse rates would help answer that question. One piece of subsequent data was
the 6.5 cases of physical child abuse per 1,000 children in official 1986
Swedish police statistics, which was substantially higher than the 2.2 per
1,000 known to police or sheriffs in the USA. The other available evidence is
the sharp increase in physical child abuse in Swedish police records from 1981
through 1994, along with a similar sharp increase in certain assaults by
minors.

Why might Sweden experience an increasing child abuse rate and an increase in
assaults by minors after outlawing corporal punishment? Haeuser's (1988)
description of some parental frustration and yelling in 1981 might indicate an
increased risk of escalation to abuse at that time. This is reminiscent of
Baumrind's (1973) observation of permissive parents. Compared to authoritative
and authoritarian parents, permissive parents were the most likely to report
"explosive attacks of rage in which they inflicted more pain or injury upon
the child than they had intended. . . . Permissive parents apparently became
violent because they felt that they could neither control the child's behavior
nor tolerate its effect upon themselves" (Baumrind, 1973, p. 35). Permissive
parents used spanking less than did either authoritative or authoritarian
parents. So it could be that the prohibition of all spanking eliminates a type
of mild spanking that prevents further escalation of aggression within
discipline incidents (see Patterson's [1982] coercive family process).
Haeuser's (1988) report suggests that Swedish parents later developed new,
firm discipline responses that reduced escalations to yelling and possibly to
child abuse. But adequate data on the resulting child abuse rates are lacking.

In conclusion, the available Swedish data indicate that we cannot reduce child
abuse just by mandating that parents stop using corporal punishment. Parents
also need new, effective techniques to replace corporal punishment if it is to
be outlawed. It is even possible that mild corporal punishment may play an
important role in preventing escalation to abuse for some parents. The other
surprise is that there has been so little empirical evaluation of the effects
of Sweden's anti-spanking law. Perhaps it has seemed so obvious that
eliminating parental spanking would reduce the child abuse rate that people
have felt that no evaluation was needed. If so, this summary of available
evidence should shake us out of our premature complacency. The role of parental
discipline responses in preventing aggression in parent and child is
surprisingly complex (Grusec & Goodnow, 1994; Patterson, 1982; Snyder &
Patterson, 1995). We need better research to understand the complexities
involved in parental discipline, including its relationship to child abuse. We
need to discriminate effective from counterproductive forms of discipline
responses, including the role of different forms of corporal punishment in
increasing or decreasing the risk of child abuse. We also need better
evaluations of policies designed to change parental discipline, given that the
effects of the Swedish anti-spanking law seem to have had exactly the opposite
effect of its intention, at least in the short term.
End include

On 2 Nov 2003, Kane wrote:

"For a number of years, various media have carried reports stating
that child abuse has increased in Sweden since the passage of the 1979
corporal punishment ban. This statement, which was recently given new
life in the Canadian Charter Challenge to Section 43 of the Criminal
Code, is completely erroneous. All available evidence indicates that
Sweden has been extremely successful in reducing rates of child
physical abuse over the past few decades and that reduction has been
maintained since the passage of the corporal punishment ban. The
purpose of this brief report is to disseminate accurate information on
this issue."

Click below to view the article in its entirety.

http://nospank.net/durrant2.htm


  #8  
Old November 4th 03, 06:43 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default So much for the claims about Sweden

Doan wrote in message ...
Instead of post propaganda from a no-spanking website,


The location of the information appears to be logical.

why not post the
study by Durrant and let's compare data?


Durrant et al cannot stand up to the wealth of information that shows
spanking to be detrimental, and rates of child abuse dropping in
countries where spanking is outlawed.

Do you want to know the truth,


Yes, and it isn't in you.

Kane?


Having trouble remembering who you are posting to?

Doan?



Doan


snipping the usual blather.

This is the "report" of a notorious pro spanking bunch of nitwits like
you.

It's not a study of spanking. It's a review and opinion of others
work. Poorly written and more obviously weakly supported propaganda.

Nice try.

Kane
  #9  
Old November 4th 03, 07:44 PM
Doan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default So much for the claims about Sweden


On 4 Nov 2003, Kane wrote:

Doan wrote in message ...
Instead of post propaganda from a no-spanking website,


The location of the information appears to be logical.

Only to the anti-spanking zealotS! ;-)

why not post the
study by Durrant and let's compare data?


Durrant et al cannot stand up to the wealth of information that shows
spanking to be detrimental, and rates of child abuse dropping in
countries where spanking is outlawed.

Then post the rates before and after the anti-spanking laws were passed.
I DARE YOU! But going by your comment above, you actually have no idea
what you are talking about. DO YOU KNOW WHO DURRANT IS??? ;-)

Do you want to know the truth,


Yes, and it isn't in you.

LOL! I posted fact, you posted propaganda! And I bet you actually believe
the propaganda is truth! ;-) How about the "information" that states that
allow paddling "correlate" to higher murder rate??? :-)

Kane?


Having trouble remembering who you are posting to?


Not at all, Kane9! Not at all! How about the 98% that went to college
and the 95% that became professionals? Hey, there is a "reason" not
to spank your kids, according to Kane! ;-)


Doan?



Doan


snipping the usual blather.

Typical cargo-cult mentality - can't deal with the truth!

This is the "report" of a notorious pro spanking bunch of nitwits like
you.

LOL! And your post from a anti-spanking website is objective??? Logic
and the anti-spanking zealotS, are they mutually exclusive? ;-)

It's not a study of spanking. It's a review and opinion of others
work. Poorly written and more obviously weakly supported propaganda.

What a idiot! It happenned to be the same data that Durrant used
"selectively" to say that child abuse rate in Sweden is down. If
you have read the actual study, she admitted that the data didn't
reach "statistical significant"!!! So what you posted was third-hand
report by anti-spanking zealotS using information that has not
stood up even to casual scientific standard.

Nice try.

You, once again, proven to be a fool! You are incapable of thinking
logically. I am proud to say you are a "never-spanked" boy! :-)

Doan

  #10  
Old November 4th 03, 11:02 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default So much for the claims about Sweden

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:44:29 -0800, Doan wrote:


On 4 Nov 2003, Kane wrote:

Doan wrote in message ...
Instead of post propaganda from a no-spanking website,


The location of the information appears to be logical.

Only to the anti-spanking zealotS! ;-)

why not post the
study by Durrant and let's compare data?


Durrant et al cannot stand up to the wealth of information that

shows
spanking to be detrimental, and rates of child abuse dropping in
countries where spanking is outlawed.

Then post the rates before and after the anti-spanking laws were

passed.
I DARE YOU!


As pointed out previously, child abuse was a seldom reported event in
Sweden unless death or serious injury of the child resulted prior to
the anti spanking law. The law itself caused more child abuse to be
reported as people became more aware of the problem.

The government mounted a very extensive campaign to not only promote
nonspanking alternatives they also mounted a considerable one to make
people more aware of abuse. Go figger.

But going by your comment above, you actually have no idea
what you are talking about.


On the contrary. I know bias and propaganda when I see it.

DO YOU KNOW WHO DURRANT IS??? ;-)


Of course. Joan is the two faced darling of the spanking crowd. While
claiming to support the anti spanking viewpoint about harm to the
children she supports that parents should be the sole arbiters of what
is and isn't abusive.

She is often quoted by right wing conservative Christians to preserve
their right to beat their children and call it spanking.

Anything else?


Do you want to know the truth,


Yes, and it isn't in you.

LOL! I posted fact, you posted propaganda!


I posted opinion. You posted what you called a study that isn't any
such thing. It was a review of other's research. As such it is more
opinion and bias than fact.

And I bet you actually believe
the propaganda is truth! ;-)



You certainly seem to.

How about the "information" that states that
allow paddling "correlate" to higher murder rate??? :-)


Find me some murderers that weren't paddled.

Kane?


Having trouble remembering who you are posting to?


Not at all, Kane9! Not at all! How about the 98% that went to

college
and the 95% that became professionals? Hey, there is a "reason" not
to spank your kids, according to Kane! ;-)


Find me some prison inmates and murderers that weren't spanked. And
don't forget, they drank milk as children too...try to pass that
little piece of garbage off on the unwary.

Take a look at the brain scan information I pointed to recently. It's
all coming down around you vicious savages ears, Doan. Won't be long
now.


Doan?



Doan


snipping the usual blather.

Typical cargo-cult mentality - can't deal with the truth!


The idea that because a child obeys they have been "disciplined" is a
perfect example of "cargo-cult" thinking. Form rather than function.

This is the "report" of a notorious pro spanking bunch of nitwits

like
you.

LOL! And your post from a anti-spanking website is objective???


The subject isn't objective. The subject is always subjective. You'll
just have to learn to live with it, oftenspankedboy.

Logic
and the anti-spanking zealotS, are they mutually exclusive? ;-)


Truth and the pro spanking fanatics, are they mutually incompatible?

It's not a study of spanking. It's a review and opinion of others
work. Poorly written and more obviously weakly supported

propaganda.

What a idiot! It happenned to be the same data that Durrant used
"selectively" to say that child abuse rate in Sweden is down. If
you have read the actual study, she admitted that the data didn't
reach "statistical significant"!!! So what you posted was third-hand
report by anti-spanking zealotS using information that has not
stood up even to casual scientific standard.


Have you read the entirety of the report you posted? While the authors
wish badly to come to some conclusions that protect the ancient
tradition of torturing children when one reads closely they find huge
holes in the information.

For instance they list child homicides as support for the idea that
not spanking raising child deaths by parents...yet, no matter how hard
I search I cannot find a single mention that PARENTS killed all those
children that were murdered.

Now why is that missing in supposedly so balanced and professional a
report?

I notice they also put in numerous disclaimers about collecting
methods for the very evidence they use to support their final
conclusions.

And note, no mention of things that would skew the data like false
reporting of abuse, a common problem. Notice there was a serious
difference in reportage also with police vs cps. In the US it would be
extremely difficult to have one kind of report with the other. CPS and
the police routinely share abuse complaints. Not so in Sweden.

In other words, you silly little smartass twit, it's a mess that
leaves plenty of loopholes for your dedicated child torturers to
exploit.

I'd call that propaganda, wouldn't you?


Nice try.

You, once again, proven to be a fool!


Your're Blowin' smoke up the reader's collective ass's again doan.

You are incapable of thinking
logically.


I am proud to say that I am incapable of thinking with YOUR kind of
'logic.'

I am proud to say you are a "never-spanked" boy! :-)



I am proud to say you are a compulsive liar, as you so demonstrated in
this ngs.

You don't know whether I was or not. Hence you are a liar to say so.
On the other hand you have admitted to being spanked.

Doan


Happy trails,

Kane
 




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