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Things to think of before you get married again..



 
 
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  #91  
Old October 9th 06, 08:34 PM posted to alt.mens-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.divorce
Phil
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Posts: 387
Default Things to think of before you get married again..


"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
As before, let's get right to the nub of it:

Phil wrote:

When speaking of custody or child $upport, "responsibility" is the
same as money. Primarily, fathers have a "responsibility" for child
$upport but the mother does not have an equal "responsibility". As a
matter of course, fathers pay money to the mothers but mothers do not
have to spend it on the children as long as they are minimally cared
for (using the fact that nearly all custodial parents are mothers).
IOW, she has less "responsibility" to the same children while his
sole "responsibility" is $$$.


There you go again. To you, it's all about the money.


You need to learn a bit about family law and how fathers are treated, by
and large. It IS only about the money.
You obviously don't know jack about it.


"responsibility ... : moral, legal, or mental accountability"

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dicti...responsibility

Still, you have helped to make my point that, at the end of the day,
this is all about money. Not moral accountability. Not informed
consent. Not the welfare of the child. Money. And specifically
evading the payment of money when one is both morally and legally
accountable to do so.


Legally, yes. Morally, hell no.


So after all this, you do agree that it's all about the money, to the
point that you will evade your moral accountability for contributing
to the pregnancy, and even your moral accountability to the child who
carries your DNA.

That's disgusting.


No, all I will agree to is you are trying to put words into others
mouths as well as mine. Debate what is said, not what you WISH was said.
You ARE disgusting but expected from the likes of those who excuse women
and try to pin them on the nearest man.
Let me know when you want to discuss what I DID say instead of what you
wanted to hear.
Phil #3


  #92  
Old October 9th 06, 08:36 PM posted to alt.mens-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.divorce
Phil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 387
Default Things to think of before you get married again..


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Gini" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Fred" wrote
Gini wrote:
"Fred" wrote
Gini wrote:
"Fred" wrote
..............................................
What I'm trying to discuss is taking responsibility.
==
What you appear to be discussing is *men* taking responsibility
for women.
Nonsense.
==
Well, there's a well thought out position. You just proved my
point. You can't
even comprehend women taking responsibility. Pathetic.
Would you like me to go back and quote your message where you said
that you agreed with what I was saying?

==
OK, I assumed you had normal comprehension capabilities. My error.
==

If you're just looking for a fight, look elsewhere. I don't have
time.

==
Nor the intellect, apparently.


Don't worry, Gini. He stops talking to anyone who disagrees with him.
He won't even hear people who consistently say "equal
responsibilities." Somehow, that seems to compute as a man NOT taking
responsibility. I'm not sure why. But anyone who challenges him gets
ignored, and now, maybe, he'll ignore you, too. Very closed minded,
this one.


*This* one has a closed mind? As if it weren't a trait of all feminists?
Phil #3


  #93  
Old October 9th 06, 08:38 PM posted to alt.mens-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.divorce
Phil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 387
Default Things to think of before you get married again..


"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
Let's get right to the nub of it:

Phil wrote:

Not *the* responsibility. *A* responsibility.

"Her body, her choice, her responsibility."

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

"For every choice, a consequence."


But not equal choices nor consequences including after childbirth
when both parents are, or should be, equal.


First of all, when it comes to reproduction, you are confusing
equality with sameness.


No, I'm not. No matter how much you wish it were so.

Males and females have different sets of choices and consequences
because they are not biologically the same. When you can bear children,
then I will grant you the same set of choices regarding reproduction as
are available to women. Until then, you'll just have to work with the
choices and consequences available to men.


So what you're saying is that since I can't get pregnant, I have no
responsibility for any children, period.


After childbirth, there should be equity. In some jurisdictions, that
is the case; in others, it is not. That's an issue for legislatures to
resolve.


It is NOT the case in ANY jurisdiction in the US, PERIOD.
Phil #3


  #94  
Old October 9th 06, 08:59 PM posted to alt.mens-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.divorce
Phil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 387
Default Things to think of before you get married again..


"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
Gini wrote:
"Fred" wrote
....................
What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that
people take responsibility?
==
Not at all--In fact we agree. She had the responsibility to not
have sex when she was ovulating
and had the responsibility to know when she is ovulating and the
responsibility to tell him when
she was ovulating. Apparently, she failed to do so. What we seem
to have (systemically, in our society)
is a failure to compel women to accept responsibility for their
actions and decisions and we them condemn
men for not anticipating her lack of responsibility.
I don't think that it is an either/or situation. Both parties bear a
responsibility. What I object to are the representations to the
effect that one party is solely responsible to the exclusion of the
other. Think about it: some men use sanctimonious statements such as
"her body, her choice, her responsibility" to evade their own
responsibilities. I know this because those men conspicuously evade
my statement, "his semen, his choice, his responsibility."


Failing to grasp that HER choice, whatever is may be, overrides his
choice and with it goes the sole responsibility for that choice.
The ONE making the decisions should accept the consequences of their
decision.


Those who contributed to the condition are both accountable.


But as you say in another post, men and women are different and have
different responsibilities due to their biological differences so take a
stand and stand by it already.


With pregnancy, men should be held equally liable to that of the
mother, which means they should have the option of raising the child
as they see fit every bit as much as the other but when the parents
are not involved in an intact relationship, BOTH parents should be
equal in custody, support (financial, emotional, spiritual and all
others) and every other facet of the child's life unless there is a
valid and just reason not to allow it.


That "valid and just" phrase speaks to equity, which is fine with me.
Not equality; equity.


No, equality, I didn't misspell it.


On the other hand, as long as women have the option to just walk away
from a living, breathing child, denying men the same right in the
same period is sexist and unequal treatment for similarly situated
people. As long as women have the option to decide whether to become
parents at all, men should have the same legal right during the same
period.


And there it is! The man seeks to evade responsibility for his
actions.


No, not at all. You need to learn to comprehend the written word. That
is NOT what I said. Perhaps if I typed r-e-a-l s-l-o-w...
I'm promoting equality. You see it as something else. Why, I'm not sure
but I suspect you are a gender-feminist and ashamed to admit it.

That's what it's always about.


Is that why women have the extra choices that are denied men, money?


What I'm trying to discuss is taking responsibility. What most are
trying to discuss is evading their own responsibility. And the
responsibility that most seem to be wanting to evade is financial
responsibility.


Don't forget that there is no law that says child $upport ...


And money. It's definitely always about money.


Snipping my message is not a way to win arguments. By doing so, you lose
because you show your fear of being ridiculed with your bombastic
claims.


I fail to see how there could even BE children that are not wanted.

[...]
I can think of only two reasons: family pressure or money.


You forgot religious pressures. That's a big one.


If she's pregnant and unmarried, it seems her religion is
cafeteria-style. Either way, your solution for men is the answer for
her, keep her pants on.
Phil #3


  #95  
Old October 9th 06, 09:22 PM posted to alt.mens-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.divorce
Phil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 387
Default Things to think of before you get married again..


"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
teachrmama wrote:

Second question: If it is reasonable for a man to know *all*
the potential consequences of his actions, is it any less
reasonable for women to also know, which negates abortion on
demand as a reasonable response to accidental pregnancy?
Your bigotry is getting in the way again.

Abortion *is* one of the potential consequences.
No it isn't!
Sure it is! Your bigotry is distorting your understanding of the
nature of consequences.

Pregnancy can be a consequence of having sex.
And abortion can be a consequence of pregnancy. Doesn't have to
be, but it can be. It's one a of a range of possible consequences
of pregnancy, others of which are adoption and carrying to term.
All are consequences.

Another choice is legal abandonment. All the post-conception
choices are available to women while none are available to men so
why are choices he is not allowed to make a consequence to the man?
Because he is responsible for where his semen ends up.


You didn't even attempt to answer the question.


I did answer the question. You just don't want to recognize it,
because to do so would mean that you are prepared to accept
responsibility for your actions, and it is clear to me that, like the
rest of your ilk, you won't do that.


Perhaps you can point me to your answer. Was it somehow comingled with
his responsibility for a woman choice to abort?

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."


Won't confront that statement, either. Hits too close to the truth, I
guess.


That is the subject of this entire debate. I thought you knew that.
The questions a do women have any responsibility for pregnancy or is
it just men? Do women have any choices that are denied men?



It's like this: without his semen, there's no conception, without
conception, there is no pregnancy, without pregnancy, there is no
abortion, or abandonment, or live birth, or whatever outcome you
choose to list.


So isn't his grandfather somehow implicated in this because without
giving birth to his father, he would never have been born to "cause" the
pregnancy you want to blame entirely on him, regarless the final outcome
he is not allowed to make?


"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

And no matter how hard you and your colleagues try to evade that
responsibility, y'all can't do it.


Women are killing, abandoning and giving, even selling their children
and all you can think about is that men are responsible for a pregnancy?


Sex may cause a pregnancy. Until a pregnancy occurs, both are equal
in deciding 1) to abstain from sex; 2) use contraception; 3) or do
nothing, hoping no pregnancy will occur. After pregnancy, the man
has no choices except those given by the woman and in fact, he may
not even be aware a pregnancy occurred. She is not even legally
required to inform him.
He should have thought of that before the fact. He should have been
responsible before the fact, because he sure as hell is gonna have
to own up to his responsibilities after the fact.


But women do not need to be responsible because we have men onto
which to pin responsibility for her decisions?


Women have responsibilities, too. But I don't see women trying to
evade their responsibilities, although there is one nutcase around
here who thinks they are. I do, however, see lots of men trying to do
so.


Every abortion and abandonment and many adoptions are evading
responsibility.


And even if someone else was not as responsible as she might have
been, that does not serve to negate his responsibility in the
matter.


Why do you feel women need the extra options that you seem to want to
forbid men?


What do you mean by "extra options"?

[this should be good ... ]


Sheesh. Are you really that stupid? Abortion, abandonment, adoption or
keeping the child and/or forcing some man, not necessarily the father,
to provide her with cash.


You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother
doesn't tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have
responsibilities and what are they?


It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know that
he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he still
has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he
definitely has legal accountability.


How so? What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least
inform him of the pregnancy? Is every problem the fault of men in your
world?
Do you think women who lie are innocent? Isn't a lie by omission a lie?


What if she does as some do, and keep it a secret for a decade or so.
What are his responsibilities then?


See above.


Ok, what are HER responsibilities in both scenarios?
Phil #3


  #96  
Old October 9th 06, 09:23 PM posted to alt.mens-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.divorce
Phil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 387
Default Things to think of before you get married again..


"Werebat" wrote in message
news:[email protected]


Phil wrote:


Equality is bigotry??? I suppose freedom is slavery as well?


Your attitude here is double-plus ungood.

- Ron ^*^


You speak newspeak. Kool
Phil #3


  #97  
Old October 9th 06, 09:48 PM posted to alt.mens-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.divorce
Fred
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 62
Default Things to think of before you get married again..

Phil wrote:

After childbirth, there should be equity. In some jurisdictions, that
is the case; in others, it is not. That's an issue for legislatures to
resolve.


It is NOT the case in ANY jurisdiction in the US, PERIOD.


So now you are resorting to lying.

Disgusting.

[Actually, folks, he doesn't want equity. He wants to keep all the money
for himself.]
  #98  
Old October 9th 06, 09:57 PM posted to alt.mens-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.divorce
Fred
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 62
Default Things to think of before you get married again..

Tripped over it again, did you?

Phil wrote:

You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother
doesn't tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have
responsibilities and what are they?

It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know that
he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he still
has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he
definitely has legal accountability.


How so?


Because it's his semen.

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least
inform him of the pregnancy?


You keep trying that sleazy trick, but it's not gonna work.

That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any
responsibility that he has.

What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you*
have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your being.

Disgusting.
  #99  
Old October 9th 06, 11:23 PM posted to alt.mens-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.divorce
Phil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 387
Default Things to think of before you get married again..


"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
Phil wrote:

After childbirth, there should be equity. In some jurisdictions,
that is the case; in others, it is not. That's an issue for
legislatures to resolve.


It is NOT the case in ANY jurisdiction in the US, PERIOD.


So now you are resorting to lying.


How so? Should be easy to prove me wrong... except you can't.
Few parents are equal after divorce and of those who are they almost
always chose to go outside the court to gain said equality.

Disgusting.


What is disgusting is your acting like you got it all knowed up yet are
totally ignorant.


[Actually, folks, he doesn't want equity. He wants to keep all the
money for himself.]


You are a liar which is plain to see. You don't know what I want; you
can only imagine and with your warped sense of judgment, you can't even
do that right.
Phil #3


  #100  
Old October 9th 06, 11:28 PM posted to alt.mens-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.divorce
Phil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 387
Default Things to think of before you get married again..


"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
Tripped over it again, did you?

Hardly.

Phil wrote:

You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother
doesn't tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have
responsibilities and what are they?
It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know
that he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he
still has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is
alive, he definitely has legal accountability.


How so?


Because it's his semen.


So men are responsible when women lie or hide the fact. Got it. Could
you BE any more biased?


"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."


All his fault, got it


What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least
inform him of the pregnancy?


You keep trying that sleazy trick, but it's not gonna work.


You cannot bring yourself to allow women to be responsible for jack.
Every problem is some man's fault, got it.
That's typical gender-feminism at it's 'finest'.


That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any
responsibility that he has.


A responsibility you'd never place on a woman, obviously.


What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you*
have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your
being.


No, you just can't accept the fact that it's all lopsided, that women
have all the choices and only the responsibility they choose while men
have no choices yet exactly the responsibility the woman chooses for
them.
You're blind as well as stupid.


Disgusting.


That you are.
Phil #3


 




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