A Parenting & kids forum. ParentingBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ParentingBanter.com forum » alt.parenting » Solutions
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Bill Cosby - NAACP leaders stunned by remarks of prominent comedian



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old May 22nd 04, 04:38 PM
Bob LeChevalier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Christopher Weeks wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
But there is no "correctly" wrt to pronunciation, anyway, despite your
prejudice.


I don't want to look like I'm supporting his bigoted agenda, but do you
really think this? Are you saying any pronunciation of a word is
equally valid?


Validity is in the eyes of the listener. In Texas, to drawl is
correct. In Massachusetts, to drop ones "r" and use a broad "a" is
correct.

Selecting a word in common use in the news, "nuclear" we find to normal
pronunciations "new clear" and "new que lar." I have to say, I think
one of these _is_ correct and one is not.


I'm sure you do. But if you go to Merriam-Webster, you find
Main Entry: nu·cle·ar
Pronunciation: 'nü-klE-&r, 'nyü-, ÷-ky&-l&r
Function: adjective


and one of the three sound files for that word is the one that you
find incorrect, and is not marked as disapproved. In other words,
your "incorrect" pronunciation is so common that it is considered a
normal one, and hence "correct".

Just remember that the tangerine-like fruit that you might eat used to
be a norange (actually it was probably spelled more like nauranj,
after the Arabic "naranj" hence the modern spanish naranja), and we've
been mispronouncing it for centuries.

If you think I'm wrong, do
you think "cat" would also be an equally valid pronunciation of that word?


I don't see that one in the m-w definition. And you are being silly.
But if I understood the word, then it would be acceptable. When a
little kid asks for "pasketti and meatballs" for dinner, we understand
them. If an adult we don't know pronounces it that way, we might
start to wonder. But if someone who is the parent of a small kid
smiles and says that s/he is serving "pasketti and meatballs" for
dinner, I smile back and understand perfectly. Communication has
occurred and that is, after all, the primary purpose of language.

There is a secondary purpose of language for some people, and that is
to put on airs and to distinguish yourself from lesser beings.
British nobility has traditionally done this for centuries, leading to
Received Pronunciation (aka the Queen's English). Some people try to
emulate this so as to seem like they are "upper crust" and some people
explicitly disdain to do so, and not necessarily because they can't.
We don't look down on a Scotsman or an Irishman for talking with their
accents even though they aren't RP, but they are as "incorrect" as
Black English Vernacular is in this country.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #32  
Old May 22nd 04, 04:44 PM
Bob LeChevalier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote:
Donna Metler wrote:
I teach in the inner city. And I've heard a lot of very educated people who
can slide back and forth between the local dialect and more formal speech.
Heck, after 7 years, I can do it. So can my students. Dialect and slang is
as much a way of shutting the outside world out as anything else. IOW, they
don't particularly WANT to be understood by people who don't make an effort
to understand them. Same with any other subgroup.


A characteristic of the IQ-75z is an inability to grazp the causez
of their problemz. Why would a group, that'z alwayz screaming
about being excluded, intentionally want to "shut out the outside
world" (your wordz) ??


Stress reduction. Creating a sense of belonging when much of the rest
of society won't let them belong naturally.

Precisely the same reason why teens use lots of slang and indeed often
adopt a version of ghetto talk, even if they are white. They are
excluded from adult society because they are teens, and they resent
that exclusion, so they set up their own inclusive group and exclude
adults by adopting non-standard behaviors. A very human reaction.

A group that wants to be accepted should be trying to *minimize* the
cultural differences.


Why? That is the way to lose one's identity. I for one much prefer
to have women not try to act like men in order to be accepted as
equals. Why should I expect those of another culture to act like mine
in order to be accepted as equals?

This warped IQ-75_Mindset is responsible for
all the organizations (Black Student Union, Black this, black that, etc)
emphasizing that DAFNz are *different*. Absolutely the wrong approach
for acceptance...


Only to those who refuse to accept "different" as equal. In other
words, subhuman racists.

lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #33  
Old May 22nd 04, 04:46 PM
Bob LeChevalier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:
I can speak incorrectly too. Anyone can. The idea is to speak
correctly.

Below is your post done incorrectly.


[Tripe deleted]

Yep. It is certainly done incorrectly. You can't even imitate black
dialect close to correctly. I'll bet that they could speak your
dialect a lot better than you speak theirs.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #34  
Old May 22nd 04, 04:56 PM
Bob LeChevalier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Fletch F. Fletch" wrote:
and many do not and/or can not speak English.


They do. But they don't speak your dialect. Nor do you speak the
Queen's dialect, and I'm sure that there are British people who look
down their nose at you for that fault.


But those British people do not sit in nearly all of the seats of power in
this country, so there is no consequence other than the disdain of a few
Brits.


We don't live in Britain, which still has an aristocracy by law. In
this country, all citizens are equal, and to look down on another
citizen for the way they talk is rude and crude.

Racists are trying to establish a pseudo-class system in lieu of race,
because technically, class discrimination isn't illegal. But looking
down on any other person for any reason other than their being
intentionally disruptive is simply *wrong*.

The consequence of speaking only ebonics is *obvious*.


It is, but should it be, assuming that you understand the person
correctly?

I had a lot of resentment in high school about a math teachers whose
German accent I simply could not process (and in fact I have a lot of
trouble with foreign accents - though I've never had any trouble
understanding a black person)

I'd fall off
my damn chair if I ever heard a Supreme Court Justice or a Cabinet
Secretary, etc. speaking ebonics and so would you I presume.


I might out of surprise, but I hope not. I have no doubt that
Clarence Thomas and Colin Powell are capable of doing so, and perhaps
they actually do so when they let their hair down. So what?

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #35  
Old May 22nd 04, 04:57 PM
Bob LeChevalier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:
I don't think ebonics is taught anywhere in the United States. Even
black people decided it was a bunch of doo doo.


I don't think you know what ebonics is.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #36  
Old May 22nd 04, 05:05 PM
Bob LeChevalier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:
Here is what Cosby said:


Note my highlights

Cosby, Saying the Darndest Things

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

• Bill Cosby was anything but politically correct in his remarks Monday
night at a Constitution Hall bash commemorating the 50th anniversary of
the Brown v. Board of Education decision. To astonishment, laughter and

^^^^^^^^
applause, Cosby mocked everything from urban fashion to black spending

^^^^^^
and speaking habits.


Most of quote omitted but then:
. . .

....
. . .

....
. . .
....
. . .


Most of the quote was omitted by the reporter, who included only the
juicy parts and lots of ellipses.


You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!"


You also can't be a doctor with the word "crap" coming out of your
mouth. But you can be a Doctor of Education and a comedian.

The link works fine for me. It's:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May18.html


The Post requires you to register to read articles. The poster was
complaining about registering.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #37  
Old May 22nd 04, 05:39 PM
Holger Dansk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 22 May 2004 10:51:37 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

"Fletch F. Fletch" wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
Those comments you question at the beginning of the post, are
*Cosby's* not mine. He has donated millions to support DAFNz in
college. He has a much better grasp of DAFNhood than you do, Bob.

Cosby is a comedian. Unless I had the full text of his comments with
all the context, and indeed preferably a video, since delivery is part
of his humor, I would not interpret his comments any differently than
I did. As posted, they were baloney, and because you posted them
(regardless of who said them originally), they were racist baloney.

Everything you say is racist baloney (even if you were to agree with
me this would be the case), because you are a subhuman racist.


With all due respect, Cosby has a PhD in education. And if you have ever
listened to him talk, you would know that he is a very smart, thoughtful
person. You do a disservice to him by dismissing him as a comedian.


I'm sure he is very smart, and can make intelligent comments about
education. But the reporting of the gala seems to make it clear that
while his comments had bite, the entertainers who were present were
performing their trade, and one cannot judge a comment without context
as well as sound and video information that would convey whether his
remark was serious, or comedically timed. In particular, the snippets
that were quoted sound like the sort of thing that he says in his
comedy routines, taking real life situations and phrasing them in
exaggerated but not wholly inaccurate manner. He had a routine about
special education on one of his earliest albums in the 60s which was
just that sort of thing that would sound politically incorrect and
offensive if spoken at an education conference, but was quite funny on
a comedy album. This gala was somewhere in between, probably with
elements of both.


Denial, denial, denial. All you have to do is go to the Google search
engine (
www.Google.com) and type in Cosby and "why you ain't" without
the quotation marks and you will fine numerous web sites with the event
on them. He was serious, of course.

Man, everyone knows that many black people speak this way. Where you
been, on another planet? It's just common knowledge.

lojbab


Holger

http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
  #38  
Old May 22nd 04, 05:42 PM
Holger Dansk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:28:41 GMT, Christopher Weeks
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:

You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything.

I sure don't. I'm confused about the "correct" way to sit, for
instance. I sort of figure that if your butt is on a chair, bench,
couch, the ground, the back of a car, the edge of a table, etc. and your
weight is mainly supported by that butt, allowing your legs and feet to
rest, then you're sitting correctly. Right?

What does it even mean to sit incorrectly?


Slouching is very incorrect. It means to walk, stand, or sit with a
slouch. A slouch is a loose or drooping gait or posture. It's usually
indicative of a lazy or incompetent person, who, by the way, may be
called a slouch.


What makes it incorrect? What makes the lack of a slouch superior?


The same thing that makes walking with a drooping gait not the proper
way to walk unless you are trying to look like a clown. You stand up
straight when you walk.

Chris


Holger

http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
  #39  
Old May 22nd 04, 05:46 PM
Holger Dansk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:35:06 GMT, Christopher Weeks
wrote:

Fletch F. Fletch wrote:

You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do
everything.

I sure don't. I'm confused about the "correct" way to sit, for
instance. I sort of figure that if your butt is on a chair, bench,
couch, the ground, the back of a car, the edge of a table, etc. and
your weight is mainly supported by that butt, allowing your legs and
feet to rest, then you're sitting correctly. Right?

What does it even mean to sit incorrectly?


It means to sit in a way that leads to injury, short term or long term,
through falling or improper body posture. It means to sit in a way such
that you damage things. There is also a correct way to look at a monitor
and type while you are sitting correctly. Set that up wrong and work at a
computer for a few years. You'll find what incorrect means.


OK, but what's it to you? Everyone does stuff with, for and to their
bodies that could be called sub-optimal. And really, the best way to
look at these factors is through risk assessment. There is a risk that
poor posture will lead to late-life back trauma. There is a risk that
poor wrist positioning will lead to nervous disorders after years of
typing. So those are incorrect, right? What about driving? Is driving
incorrect because there is a risk of injury and death?

I mean, the implications here are pretty broad and it certainly sounds
to many of us like a very broad brush painting along lines of truth are
being used to obscure racism. What's your agenda?


That's what Cosby is trying to tell you. Quit hiding behind racism, and
begin valuing what is right and what is wrong. Try to be someone who
does the right thing. Care about yourself and other people, and care
about how you behave or act. It's very, very, very, very important to
do that. Stop this "I don't give a damn." attitude.

Holger

Chris



http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
  #40  
Old May 22nd 04, 05:53 PM
Joni Rathbun
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


On Sat, 22 May 2004, Bob LeChevalier wrote:

"Fletch F. Fletch" wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote:
Those comments you question at the beginning of the post, are
*Cosby's* not mine. He has donated millions to support DAFNz in
college. He has a much better grasp of DAFNhood than you do, Bob.

Cosby is a comedian. Unless I had the full text of his comments with
all the context, and indeed preferably a video, since delivery is part
of his humor, I would not interpret his comments any differently than
I did. As posted, they were baloney, and because you posted them
(regardless of who said them originally), they were racist baloney.

Everything you say is racist baloney (even if you were to agree with
me this would be the case), because you are a subhuman racist.


With all due respect, Cosby has a PhD in education. And if you have ever
listened to him talk, you would know that he is a very smart, thoughtful
person. You do a disservice to him by dismissing him as a comedian.


I'm sure he is very smart, and can make intelligent comments about
education. But the reporting of the gala seems to make it clear that
while his comments had bite, the entertainers who were present were
performing their trade, and one cannot judge a comment without context
as well as sound and video information that would convey whether his
remark was serious, or comedically timed. In particular, the snippets
that were quoted sound like the sort of thing that he says in his
comedy routines, taking real life situations and phrasing them in
exaggerated but not wholly inaccurate manner. He had a routine about
special education on one of his earliest albums in the 60s which was
just that sort of thing that would sound politically incorrect and
offensive if spoken at an education conference, but was quite funny on
a comedy album. This gala was somewhere in between, probably with
elements of both.


Bob, I don't think Cosby would make these remarks *just* to be funny.
I believe he was mostly serious tho perhaps a bit exaggerated. And
I don't think he was being funny at all when he beseeched blacks to
stand up as they did during the civil rights movement and take their
neighborhoods back.

His opinion, while debatable, is not unique among successful blacks.
They see the problems as disproportionate and they believe the
solutions are within.

The conversation often centers on why things are the way they are
and, perhaps, addressing the symptoms. We hear from the racist
crowd here that blacks are pre-destined for failure as a result
of genetics and IQ. Others rightfully speak out against such
nonsense.

Meanwhile, Cosby and others are saying enough with the accusations
and excuses already; just get out there and make something of yourself.
Ultimately, you are the master of your own reality.



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A first 'Parker Jensen' bill advances wexwimpy Foster Parents 0 February 8th 04 06:29 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2022 ParentingBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.