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  #431  
Old June 1st 04, 12:47 AM
R. Steve Walz
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Info Junkie wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2004 01:36:33 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote:

Info Junkie wrote:

On Sun, 23 May 2004 11:54:41 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:

"snip"

We do not have time machines, and we are not responsible for the deed of
people who lived many years before we were born.
--------------------
Not unless we still have benefit of the wealth they stole through
slavery, AND collectively, we DO!!!! That amounts to the possesion
of lost or stolen property, and ANY disparity of wealth that we have
allowed to afflict new generations of blacks, because of our ongoing
greed in NOT returning our ill-gotten gain, this is ALSO our debt!!

This is why we owe blacks complete restoration to the wealth and
position, power, and education they would have had they been white!!
Because Color WAS the distinguishing feature that identified them as
slaves for hundreds of years, deprived them of family, tribe, and
culture, and left them in this condition.

Oh my. Where should such monies for "reparations" (which is what you're speaking
of) come from:

---------------------------------
Confiscated wealthy from all the wealthy.


So you wish the government to take monies from the wealthy (whatever "wealthy"
means) to give to blacks, not based on law, but because you believe it o be
"right". Understood.

-----------------------------
No. You don't.


1. Would you include receiving monies(from) those that originally captured and
(then) sold them into slavery?

--------------------------
Impossible, and irrelevant.


2. What of those whose families owned no slaves, and were in fact against
slavery? Would you "pick their pocket" for "reparations" as well?

------------------------------
Those who are wealthy should be relieved of it.


3. What, do we "owe blacks" that are descedants of black slave owners Mr Walz?
Or are you claiming only white people were slave owners in this country.

---------------------------------
Same as we owe EVERYONE. A decent education, job, home.


For that matter we also owe each child born into our society their
own residence, free and clear, simply because 500 generations of the
labor of our collective ancestors slaving for the rich have already
earned them that inheritance, and by right of equality they each
should already own and control their fair share of the entire earth!!

Where do you get "500 generations"?

------------------------------------
It doesn't matter, moron, it's not specific, nor does it have to be.


You make the assertion, you provide the evidence.

--------------------------------
It was an offhand number that need not be accurate, in fact it can
be longer or shorter with no change in the certain truth of my
assertion. It depends on what you call a generation, if it is 20
years, fine, and if as some say, it is 30 years, then still, fine.
Since we have a body of common ancestry that is distanced from the
present by between 10,000 and 100,000 years, it is unimportant.
And in any case, everyone *IS* related to everyone else.


Blacks are the only ones who can help themselves.
------------------
That doesn't happen, there is no "Free Will", we are products of
our experience, and nothing else, and we cannot change what
circumstances have made us think and what we do because of it.
We can only wait for new circumstances and experiences, or others
to affect our thinking.

This may be true for animals Mr Walz,

-------------------------------
Nope, it's true for ALL beings in the world, your trying to speak
of self-awareness, not realizing that self-awareness has nothing
whatsoever to do with "Free Will", you obviously need some college
philosophy coursework.


One that believes as you do also knows there are opposing theories that dispute
your belief.

------------------------------------------
Wrong ones, yes, and held for ulterior illegitimate motives of
greed and power.


but many times people change their ways
because of their experiences...some to improve themselves, some to enact
reverge, some to wallow in self-pity.

---------------------------
Yes, they change because of experiences, ansd without those important
lucky, formative experiences, they do NOT!! In other words, they do
NOT have "Free Will".


Now by asserting these people have obtained new experiences, they are "lucky".
Doesn't sound very "scientific", at least to use as any sort of "proof" of your
belief over opposing theories.

------------------------------------
What would you call a happy winner of a random chance award?
That's purely scientific. We do what we do because of who we
are, which is produced by our life experiences, in the precise
order they occur, and our chemical reaction to them which is
entirely determined by cause and effect. There is ONLY ONE
outcome for events at a specic place and time, and ONLY one
finally happens, regardless of how many other universes were
also produced which did NOT become this thread's future!


If there was no such thing as "free will"
Mr Walz, all individual outcomes would be predictible for each of us. throughout
history.

-------------------------------
No, they would merely be unary, ONLY one final outcome, which is
true.


Yet based on your beleief, the "ONLY one final outcome" would be the same for
all individuals, and be at the least easily predicatible.

-------------------------------------
All individuals are not the same, nor the place and time nor the
order of their life experiences, nor their experiences themselves
the same, and prediction presumes advanced enough science or the
possible impossibility of prediction, which still does NOT prevent
there being ONLY ONE UNARY OUTCOME FOR EVENTS IN ANY LIFE AT ANY
PLACE AND TIME! Thus all outcomes are Deterministic.


The notion that they must be predictable relies upon your ability
to fathom the totality of the science of causation, which neither
you nor other lower animals have.


The only thing that may now be predictible in your posts, is that you've begun
down the path of ad hominem.

--------------------------------
No. I don't have the ability to predict all causation either.
By "you" I meant the general "you" here.


I may suggest since you believe you fully understand the aetiology of human
nature, you publish your works and disprove those with far more knowledge in
this field than you or I, wrt your belief on "free will".

------------------------------
It's no mere "belief", it is inarguable truth based on logic.
Things cannot be successfully argued to operate otherwise.

If we had "Free WIll" we could decide apart from any and all causes,
to think differently than we had, in the manner we'd prefer, and we'd
think we were somewhere else than we are, and we'd be there, because
we would be able to firmly retain belief in that in spite of all of
the conflicting and confounding evidence to the contrary occuring to
our senses, and we would be quite schizophrenic and lost in a fantasy
world. That IS what such a power entails, and it makes coherent living
of a lifetime impossible. It can be argued that those who do so are
lives than go out of existence out the sides of reality leaving only
the rest of us who cannot, to exist coherently, moment to moment,
trapped in our life birth to death. We will never know of those others'
existence, if they can be said to have one without a single certain
life that they cannot escape, in fact it can be maintained that such
an entity would NOT be merely ONE entity by MANY or even ANY entity!
This is why we cannot have any such thing as "Free Will", we would
immediately CEASE TO EXIST! Actual "Free Will" would make any kind of
Life altogether IMPOSSIBLE!


Everyone is
responsible by his past choices or decisions for his present condition
in life.
---------------------
Nope, a hundred TIMES more decisions by OTHERS produce our mind in
our lives than those we even CALL our own, and our own and also merely
the result of cause and effect outside of us. Saying we're responsible
only says that we are who suffers, it does NOT make us able to change
ourselves on whim, without reasons that would compel us beyond our
control.

How unfortunate all of your decisions (which you believe are not
your own apparently)

----------------------
I cannot control what I am, and obviously neither can you, or someone
so pitifully unable to argue as YOU are would OTHERWISE do far better!


While you may not be able to control WHO you are, only you may control HOW you
implement your beliefs.

------------------
Meaningless. What sort of thing is that, "style"?? What is NOT my
core belief that is what I believe? Nothing! No, all is belief, and
it is not under our control. Rather it IS what controls us, and how
we ARE controlled.


While there are consequences for ones actions,
implementation of ones own beliefs that determine the extent of your "free
will". To suggest you can not is not only foolish, but self-defeating.

--------------------------
You're arguing for some undetectable epiphenomenal "you can't and yet
you can" sort of "Free Will", which is nonsense born only of verbal
assembly and not a logical assertion. Just because you can verbalize
something doesn't mean it must be so!! You think that you possess the
"feeling" of "running your own mind", but that is only an idea that
was taught you, it is not shown, it is a belief without evidence.
It is what the RC Church taught people so they could hold them
criminally responsible for what they THINK, when that is balderdash
on its face to imagine that someone actually controls what they THINK!
All that sort of thing is done for is for terror purposes, not because
someone actually controls what they think! Can terror control people,
sure, partially, falsely, and unsuccessfully, but it can seem to work
for a time, till they slit your throat. But terror does not of itself
change thoughts in minds permanently. The assault is remembered, and
forms a bio-neurologic source of rebellion and secret plotting of
revenge.


will dictate all of the decisions your
children will make when they are grown, and the children beyond
them.

----------------------
No, children are affected not only by MY input, but by a hundred times
MORE uncontrolled experiences in their life in the world.


Children may be "effected" by their parents input, but it does not determine HOW
they would implement their actions based on your beliefs,

-------------
You mean "affected", yes.


and in the manner you
would implement your actions based on your beliefs, nor are their actions
predictible.

---------------
They get more predictable the more they are moral, because moral
treatment of others earns their love, which ensures the desire to
become cooperative and retain the relationship closely and amiably.


If their experiences are "uncontrolled", they may implement their
actions far differently than others would, and no "ability to fathom the
totality of the science of causation" wrt predictiblity will change that.

---------------------------------
Even if things in children's lives are uncontrolled, if you have
behaved morally toward them they will appreciate it, and separate
you from the group of effects that they resent and which they plot
to damage, change, or destroy.


How sad for you and yours, as there have been many, many others
that have decided (free will) not to share your
state of self-pity.

------------------------
No, that is merely their mistaken belief that they are unable to
change because they have no "Free WIll", they were brainwashed
with such crap and have never had to examine it logically.


Whose "mistaken belief"? If you believe neither your parents nor yourself had
"free will", then both you and your parents (and subsequently your children)
were also "brainwashed", ergo you'd have no ability to "examine" what was or was
not "crap" nor think "logically".

-----------------------------
No, you're getting confused. Life experience does not brainwash us.
It teaches us what we must learn and deal with, and how. Brainwashing
is when someone as a separate agency tries to bully us into phony
edicts of thought and behavior that actually contradict our other
much more massively persuasive life experience. We always know inside
when we have been forced to lie by threat, to ourselves and to others,
though under said threat of torture we may act and forget it is just
a phony play we are pretending, for a time.


Your condition or the circumstances that you are living in
today are a direct result of your decisions in the past. You are also
responsible for your future. Not anyone else. Just you.
Holger
----------------------
Sorry, we are NOT islands, divisible from the rest, we are literally
produced and created by the actions of others, and everything we are
came from outside us and beyond our control. We owe each other support
and fairness!! We are a group species, a group cultural mind.

If this were true Mr Walz, one would be a robot or a domesticated and herded
animal.

---------------------------
No, that is not what a robot or a cow is, those are mechanical or
organic devices that have no self-awareness, but as I have told you
AND SHOWED you with a simple thought-experiment, self-awareness has
nothing whatsoever to do with "Free WIll". Self-awareness does NOT
include some magical ability to change what you think about your
existence, even though self-awaress does think ABOUT its existence
and models its existence internally in its mind as a means of perceiving
the past!


Pyscho-babble.

---------------------
You're a liar, a coward, a nincompoop who cannot reason logically.
Your blurting is cowardly and defensive because you are unable to
respond logically.


If we could change what we thought we would go totally insane almost
immediately because we would decide to think we were elsewhere in
some life and location that we preferred far better and we would leave
this reality and perhaps leave behind a catatonic body abandoned by
any person in touch with reality. We would mentally mastrubate our
mind into insanity and total loss of reality if given whimsical
control of what we believe!! That's the prime reason we CANNOT HAVE
"Free Will", because it would make Reality itself and individual
coherent lives IMPOSSIBLE!!!


More Pyscho-babble. If one does not learn Mr Walz, one remains a child. How one
implements what has been learned determines ones future.

-------------
But how one implements anything comes from our life experience and
beliefs that come directly from them. You are pretending that you
can separate what is experienced from how it affects beliefs, and
hence acts, and you CANNOT! Those separations are verbal ONLY, and
ONLY as a feature of sentence structure, they are NOT real, except
as speech fragments.


OTOH, some have learned
to change not only what they've learned previously may be incorrect, but have
made appropriate changes in how they implement their new experieces, including
how they treat others...none of which were predictible.

-------------------------
Nonsense, they are as predictable as anything, FOR YOU JUST DID SO!!
This means they are caused by external experiences and how they affect
our internal workings entirely beyond our control! If this were not
so, then no transformative experiences would be possible!

And experience means EITHER external OR INTERNAL, because we can be
JUST as taken somewhere we might not have tread by our own musings
and pouring over old experiences as by new ones! This is NOT any form
of "self-control", this is merely dynamic logic at work, the action
of delay and feedback in the Deterministic mechanism of our chemical
physical mind!! We do not control, we are controlled by everything
else!!


While you may believe it is true for you Mr Walz,

------------------------
Don't be a disingenuous ****, you dummy, you know full well that I
hold it to be true of everyone forever and always!! AND YOU KNOW
THAT I CAN PROVE IT TO YOU AND YOU DON'T WISH TO ADMIT IT!!!


(And your ad hominem becomes more shrill - as predicted above)

---------------------------
You asserted that I merely BELIEVE it, or "for me alone" and that
was an insulting ad hominem, however smug and round about, and why
I lashed out at you. If you don't desire to be assailed, desist
from such gambits!


Admit "what" Mr Walz? Areyou claiming you can not learn anymore than you already
have ("I hold it to be true of everyone forever and always!!")...or just that
you refuse to admit that what you've have learned to date may be, at least in
part, incorrect? That you believe there is no "free will" Mr Walz, may be true
for you, but is a theory that is disputed even among professionals.

-------------------------------------
Not competent ones. Those who reject it are clearly only doing so
because of their inability to reason and their fear of it as to
what it means, having been raised in a punitive blaming society
that holds people responsible for their very thoughts, which they
cannot help. The arguments of such inferiors are so specious that
it is barely believable that a someone pretending to authority could
dare even to publish them and reveal their shallow grasp of the
question. It is only because they are unaware how stupid they look
that they can dare do so at all. This evidences that others do
indeed grasp the subject far better, even if their inferiors are
unaware of this.

The most well-accepted school of thought in QM is the MWI or many
worlds interpetation. It solves so many problems compared to all
other models that it simply cannot be ignored, and because of the
nature of its claims, cannot even BE refuted, but like Determinism,
it frightens the **** out of Fundy Xtians with their limited and
shame-based world-view, even if they CALL themselves physicists!
The rest of physics and physicists laughs at them both in front
of and behind their backs, because they can never win an argument.


"Environment is responsible for over half of the variance in the trait. Note
that ‘environment’ includes not only the circumstances of a person’s upbringing,
this is just its most obvious and important aspect, ‘environment’ also includes
everything that is not inheritable, all the non-genetic factors that might be
relevant, from experimental error to free will. "

------------------------------
Wrong! The half-and-half doctrine is between nurture and nature.

And the other "half" of cause is what? Genomic?? In other words,
YET MORE input into who you are and how you behave that you cannot
control or prevent!! Now this half and half baloney is so much pure
crap in biology, it is merely a nod to each other between psychology
and biology, dividing "turf" as it were.

Nobody actually knows what does exactly what, and they'd be better
off admitting it till they do!


(http://www.bioethics.net/genetics/ge...&articleID=759)

If no such thing a "free will" exists Mr Walz, why is such a phrase considered
by the American Journal of Bioethics as a "trait", even part of ones
"environment"? Are you claiming they are wrong and only you are correct?

---------------------------------
The presence of non-science and even anti-science in the bordeline
sciences is always good for a laugh. When writing in such fields,
most of what people write is mere opinion, they do not always write
science. Don't be decieved. In these much more complex human fields
in which we have the least grasp of how things occur of all fields,
some fanciful guesswork seems unavoidable, even if it may later stymie
the real science from progressing. It is better to speak and lay one's
assumptions on the table for future review, than to leave them unsaid.
Thus, people often write their unjustified belief systems into their
supposedly "scientific" efforts. Examples of this are so numerous!

What is meant BY "Free Will" in different circumstances does of course
differ. Sometimes it means no more than self-awareness, sometimes it
means no more than the ability to learn from experience, even in lower
animals where the mechanism doesn't even seem to be an aware process.

You have to examine them to know when it is being mis-used in a shoddy
and free-form manner than ignores and denies the quite proper claim of
Philosophy alone to be its definer.


You were brainwashed with Rightist moronic "individuality" and
"self-reliance", so that you could justify Rightist abuses of
those less fortunate in life, because you don't even grasping that
those are nothing but fatuous MYTHS!


What is clear Mr Walz, is what you believe far exceeds what you know Mr Walz, My
upbringing ("brainwashed" to you) was quite center to left-of-center...I "grew
up" and learned the world is not so (pardon the pun) "black and white".

---------------------------------------
You fancy yourself as a Leftist, but from where I sit you are to
the Right because you are unaware of why you believe the little
things that you do that make you effectively a Rightist. The
dogma you assert is inherently Rightist, it supports no other
direction of belief, but you don't know that yet, apparently.


Much of what I was taught was similar to the baloney you are
spewing Mr Walz.

------------------------------------------
And which you weren't bright enough to understand, obviously.
If you were taught it, you should use it.


This was quite evident when you snipped my questions to you wrt "reparations" Mr
Walz, as you did not wish to deal with them as facts not "myths". Instead,
moving to fallacvies of distration rather than staying on-topic wrt
"reparations".

----------------------------------
I don't distract, I attack. If you don't understand what I say ask
questions.


fortunately there are
many that refuse to wallow in your type of self-pity and have raised themselves
up from whatever position they originally started...regardless of race and
without any need for "reparations".

---------------------------
No, those who think they did were merely lucky,


Hmmm. I thought it was based upon "upon your ability
to fathom the totality of the science of causation'?

-------------------------------------
You seem to believe that I asserted I had such a thing.
I simply reminded you that YOU do not, which you onviously
took personally and now fancy that *I* pretend to it, which
I do not.


and wish to take
phony credit for it, and believe that either they did it all by
themselves, which is nonsense to anyone acquainted with cause and
effect in physics, and who doesn't try to separate it from real
LIFE.


Which has differing, and disputible theories., none of which are appllicable to
reparations.

---------------------
Everything is disputable to sufficiently ignorant stubborn and
conniving people who are unwilling to reason logically. Such an
assertion that everything is disputable might lead the fatuous
to believe that there is no Truth. Hogwash. Truth can only BE
determined by people WILLING AND CAPABLE of divining it by LOGIC!

To all others, the Truth is NOT, in fact, "disputable", it is
merely UNAVAILABLE to them because of their ignorance and willful
intellectual misbehavior!!


This allows them an excuse to keep their ill-gotten wealth
and allows them to think they can justify their abuses of those
less fortunate.


So even those blacks that ae wealthy was accomplished by "ill-gotten" means and
not talent, and should have their wealth "confiscated" beacuse they only use
their wealth so "they can justify their abuses of those less fortunate"?

-------------------
Absolutely. WHOEVER benefits by the degradation of another, is at
fault, and must be penalized till they do NOT benefit inordinately
over others.


It's mostly the greedy self-indulgent excuses of
the thief and bandit that motivates the Rightist to justify their
unfairly gotten wealth by pretending that "Free Will" exists, when
every logical argument trashes that Myth totally!


If "every logical argument" shows there is no such thing as "free will" Mr Walz,

---------------------------------
It can't. It is unable.
Steve
  #432  
Old June 1st 04, 01:03 AM
Info Junkie
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On Sat, 29 May 2004 00:53:38 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:

On Fri, 28 May 2004 01:13:04 GMT, "R. Steve Walz"
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:

On Wed, 26 May 2004 15:59:19 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

But it would be wrong. And even "disrespect" does not successful
convey the utter contempt that they (and I) feel for racists like you.

You have to earn respect
-----------------
Nope, everyone deserves it gratis. If it's not given by someone,
then the reasons WHY exist and MUST BE EXAMINED! And blacks find
NOTHING *WORTH* respecting in this country!!


Well, at the risk of sounding trite, they can always go back to you know
where.

-----------
You mean where they were kidnapped? THAT crime gives them MORE claim
to this country than WE have!


No Mr Walz, where they were sold by their brethern. This is fairly well
documented, including a fairly recent acknowledgement by a country in Africa
that admitted the same.

While "that crime" may or may not give them more claim to the own country of
origin,, but not the one to which they ended up in, nor have you presented
evidence they were ever kidnapped by any within this country (USA).

But I wouldn't advise it. The blacks in Africa live terrible
lives.

------------
By no means all of them.


For those interested, they are free, like any Americans to go to the origin of
their ancestry should they desire.

It's important that you respect yourself, and you will not do that
sitting on the curb all day saying "muhfugger" and "racist".

----------------
Actually, if you perceive that the degradation of your life and
livelihood is caused by mother****ing racists, then yes, it can
indeed restore much of your inculcuated depression produced by
racists who have systematically degraded you. If you believe that
you have been assaulted, instead of just believing what your
assailants told you abiout yourself, then yes, it can indeed
improved your self-esteem, and quite properly so!!


When one is sitting in the perceived mud puddle of self-pity Mr Walz, one may
get up and clean yourself off, or continue to splash in the mud puddle.

You have
to get off your ass and really strive to improve yourself.

----------------
There is no such thing as "Free Will". People do what they believe
they must do, which is mostly what they have been told they must
do. If you want someone to stop cussing you, you'd better stop
treating them in a manner that any behaviorist can tell you will
make them do that!!


I've previously addressed this issue Mr Walz.

and it's not done by poor language, making poor
grades, incorrect behavior, and the crimes that blacks commit, etc.
--------------------
They must be given what has to replace their business, the way they
survive, which may seem like crime. AND THEY MUST BE GIVEN IT BEFORE
BEING EXPECTED TO RELINQUISH THE OTHER!!! People have to EAT!! Most
dope dealers SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES!! Disrespect for people who want
their family to go hungry is NATURAL!!


Not anyone wants your family to go hungry.

-----------------
Don't pretend a polite lie!!
The rich would much rather go on six to eight vacations a year than
for their renters to eat properly and have a decent life. They try
to justify this by claiming that everyone decides their own fate,
when that is a ridiculous lie!


Now you are a spokesperson for "the rich"? It appears you wish to blame others
in another form of "splashing in water" in your perceived "mud puddle" Mr Walz.

Like Bill Cosby says, it
would be great if you would help yourself to be better by speaking
correctly and not stealing and killing so much.

-------------------------------------
Like Bill Cosby LIEs, you mean. If he actually believes such things
after all the education he is supposed to have had, then he was a
really ****ty student who didn't pay much attention, and if he does
not then he is a damned liar fueled by political prejudice, ambition,
and the criminal urge to justify his own wealth in a cowardly manner.


So IYO of course, Mr Cosby lies, not because he believes what he says, but
beaciuse he was a "really ****ty student who didn't pay much attention"?

ANYONE who EVER took a couple decent philosophy courses KNOWS that
Determinism is the most legitimate view of causation, no matter how
much it seems to violate the preferred popularized American Myth of
Self-Determination that is merely promoted by the wealthy as an effort
to shame the poor for their own fate so they won't gang up on them and
kill them all!


There are many theories in various areas of philosophy Mr Walz. For those you
claim to "KNOW" it's meanings, they would no longer be therories, but facts.

And ANYONE who has had a chemistry class or a science class knows
that the universe runs on cause and effect, and that what happens
inside your skull is every bit as determined by physical laws and
physics as any other experimental milieu in science, and that brain
chemistry is NOT ruled by our notions in some fanciful image of over-
riding "self-control", but rather instead the determinate chemistry
PRODUCES those notions and motivations.


Hmmm. What effect Mr Waltz, does the cited "ozone depletion", have on the
"chemistry" of the mind and subsequent thought processes? Feel free to provide
such evidence Mr Walz, not another theory.

OTOH, if what you claim were true Mr Walz, then this would also conflict with
those that claim humans evolved from "less-civilized" beings. How does one
"evolve" to a "higher level", while your claim that a person's "notions and
motivations" that are "inside your skull is every bit as determined by physical
laws and physics"?

Cosby is supposed a Ph Ed, which means he has supposedly had a LOT
of philosophy and sociology, so either he was a ****ty student, or
he is a liar!


Or you could be wrong on any and all of which you write.
  #433  
Old June 1st 04, 01:17 AM
R. Steve Walz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Info Junkie wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2004 00:53:38 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote:

You mean where they were kidnapped? THAT crime gives them MORE claim
to this country than WE have!


No Mr Walz, where they were sold by their brethern. This is fairly well
documented, including a fairly recent acknowledgement by a country in Africa
that admitted the same.

------------------------
While true, that's irrelevant, who "owned" and abused them and
derived criminal gain is the determinant at question in America.


While "that crime" may or may not give them more claim to the own country of
origin,, but not the one to which they ended up in, nor have you presented
evidence they were ever kidnapped by any within this country (USA).

-----------------------
Irrelevant.
Kidnap is an ongoing crime, even now, since they still suffer.
It is as punishable here as a continuing crime, as anywhere it
first occurred.


But I wouldn't advise it. The blacks in Africa live terrible
lives.

------------
By no means all of them.


For those interested, they are free, like any Americans to go to the origin of
their ancestry should they desire.

------------------------------------
A crime here is a crime here, and must be recompensed, their origin
is irrelevant.


It's important that you respect yourself, and you will not do that
sitting on the curb all day saying "muhfugger" and "racist".

----------------
Actually, if you perceive that the degradation of your life and
livelihood is caused by mother****ing racists, then yes, it can
indeed restore much of your inculcuated depression produced by
racists who have systematically degraded you. If you believe that
you have been assaulted, instead of just believing what your
assailants told you abiout yourself, then yes, it can indeed
improved your self-esteem, and quite properly so!!


When one is sitting in the perceived mud puddle of self-pity Mr Walz, one may
get up and clean yourself off, or continue to splash in the mud puddle.

-------------------------------
Vengeance cleanses just fine. Don't confuse hate and self-pity.


You have
to get off your ass and really strive to improve yourself.

----------------
There is no such thing as "Free Will". People do what they believe
they must do, which is mostly what they have been told they must
do. If you want someone to stop cussing you, you'd better stop
treating them in a manner that any behaviorist can tell you will
make them do that!!


I've previously addressed this issue Mr Walz.

---------------------------
Not effectively.


and it's not done by poor language, making poor
grades, incorrect behavior, and the crimes that blacks commit, etc.
--------------------
They must be given what has to replace their business, the way they
survive, which may seem like crime. AND THEY MUST BE GIVEN IT BEFORE
BEING EXPECTED TO RELINQUISH THE OTHER!!! People have to EAT!! Most
dope dealers SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES!! Disrespect for people who want
their family to go hungry is NATURAL!!

Not anyone wants your family to go hungry.

-----------------
Don't pretend a polite lie!!
The rich would much rather go on six to eight vacations a year than
for their renters to eat properly and have a decent life. They try
to justify this by claiming that everyone decides their own fate,
when that is a ridiculous lie!


Now you are a spokesperson for "the rich"? It appears you wish to blame others
in another form of "splashing in water" in your perceived "mud puddle" Mr Walz.

--------------------------------
Your mud-puddle analogy is rotting, it's irrelevant.
Vengeance cleanses the heart.


Like Bill Cosby says, it
would be great if you would help yourself to be better by speaking
correctly and not stealing and killing so much.

-------------------------------------
Like Bill Cosby LIEs, you mean. If he actually believes such things
after all the education he is supposed to have had, then he was a
really ****ty student who didn't pay much attention, and if he does
not then he is a damned liar fueled by political prejudice, ambition,
and the criminal urge to justify his own wealth in a cowardly manner.


So IYO of course, Mr Cosby lies, not because he believes what he says, but
beaciuse he was a "really ****ty student who didn't pay much attention"?

-----------------------------------
I don't bother to distinguish which.
He's wrong, and that must be said.


ANYONE who EVER took a couple decent philosophy courses KNOWS that
Determinism is the most legitimate view of causation, no matter how
much it seems to violate the preferred popularized American Myth of
Self-Determination that is merely promoted by the wealthy as an effort
to shame the poor for their own fate so they won't gang up on them and
kill them all!


There are many theories in various areas of philosophy Mr Walz.

-------------------------
Nonsense, I've been over all the territory of Determinism, it just
isn't that large, because the question is actually fairly simple.
Only ignorance and willful disregard of logic makes it seem otherwise.


For those you claim to "KNOW" it's meanings, they would no longer
be therories, but facts.

------------------------------
I know its theories, and which of them are facts and which theories
are NOT theories, actually. They don't HAVE to be only one or the
other. They are NOT mutually exclusive, so quit playing semantic
games.


And ANYONE who has had a chemistry class or a science class knows
that the universe runs on cause and effect, and that what happens
inside your skull is every bit as determined by physical laws and
physics as any other experimental milieu in science, and that brain
chemistry is NOT ruled by our notions in some fanciful image of over-
riding "self-control", but rather instead the determinate chemistry
PRODUCES those notions and motivations.


Hmmm. What effect Mr Waltz, does the cited "ozone depletion", have on the
"chemistry" of the mind and subsequent thought processes? Feel free to provide
such evidence Mr Walz, not another theory.

-----------------------
Whatever its effect, it does NOT cause any "free will".


OTOH, if what you claim were true Mr Walz, then this would also conflict with
those that claim humans evolved from "less-civilized" beings.

------------------------
Humans are defined as civilized. There is no such thing as "less"
or "un"-civilized except in instances where the term is used
colorfully, but inaccurately.


How does one
"evolve" to a "higher level", while your claim that a person's "notions and
motivations" that are "inside your skull is every bit as determined by physical
laws and physics"?

--------------------------
Accident that includes a society accidentally evolving and finally
getting its **** together and effecting everyone's life. Evolution
is that happy accident that retains its own advantages.


Cosby is supposed a Ph Ed, which means he has supposedly had a LOT
of philosophy and sociology, so either he was a ****ty student, or
he is a liar!


Or you could be wrong on any and all of which you write.

-------------------------------
Nope. Not when I'm right. Quit playing games and go play now.
Steve
  #434  
Old June 1st 04, 01:35 AM
Holger Dansk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:17:11 GMT, "R. Steve Walz"
wrote:

Nonsense, I've been over all the territory of Determinism, it just
isn't that large, because the question is actually fairly simple.
Only ignorance and willful disregard of logic makes it seem otherwise.


You are really screwed up bad in the head. You do not live in the real
world at all, but you live in one created by a mind that, evidently,
long ago became very confused and does not function at all in a logical
or rational way. Get help at your earliest opportunity. You have lost
all of your credibility with most people.

Holger

http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
  #435  
Old June 1st 04, 01:51 AM
Holger Dansk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 31 May 2004 21:08:55 GMT, "R. Steve Walz"
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 12:17:18 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2004 01:36:55 GMT, "R. Steve Walz"
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:

black-savage-Ethiopian-American women
Holger
---------------
You're a racist **** and you deserve to be killed.

What part of black-savage-Ethiopian-American do you not understand?

What percentage of blacks in this country have any Ethiopian ancestry?

Your ancestors were definitely black

We have no idea what color anyone's ancestors were.


Yes we do. Black people in America have relatives who are descendants
in Africa of the relatives of the black people in America at the time
they were captured by black savages in Africa.

----------------------
Yeah, WEST africa.

I'm sure most black savages were captured in West Africa. It was closer
to the ocean where they would have to be taken by their black savage
captors.

Fat black bucks in a wine-barrel room,
Barrel-house kings, with feet unstable,
(A deep rolling bass.)
Sagged and reeled and pounded on the table,
Pounded on the table,
Beat an empty barrel with the handle of a broom,
Hard as they were able,
Boom, boom, BOOM,
With a silk umbrella and the handle of a broom,
Boomlay, boomlay, boomlay, BOOM.
THEN I had religion, THEN I had a vision.
I could not turn from their revel in derision.
(More deliberate. Solemnly chanted.)
THEN I SAW THE CONGO, CREEPING THROUGH THE BLACK, CUTTING THROUGH
THE FOREST WITH A GOLDEN TRACK.
Then along that riverbank
A thousand miles
Tattooed cannibals danced in files;
Then I heard the boom of the blood-lust song
A rapidly piling climax of speed and racket.
And a thigh-bone beating on a tin-pan gong.
And "BLOOD" screamed the whistles and the fifes of
the warriors,
"BLOOD" screamed the skull-faced, lean
witch-doctors,
"Whirl ye the deadly voo-doo rattle,
Harry the uplands,
Steal all the cattle,
Rattle-rattle, rattle-rattle,
Bing.
Boomlay, boomlay, boomlay, BOOM,"
(With a philosophic pause.)
A roaring, epic, rag-time tune
From the mouth of the Congo
To the Mountains of the Moon.
Death is an Elephant,
(Shrilly and with a heavily accented metre.)
Torch-eyed and horrible,
Foam-flanked and terrible.
BOOM, steal the pygmies,
BOOM, kill the Arabs,
BOOM, kill the white men,
HOO, HOO, HOO.
(Like the wind in the chimney.)
Listen to the yell of Leopold's ghost
Burning in Hell for his hand-maimed host.
Hear how the demons chuckle and yell
Cutting his hands off, down in Hell.
Listen to the creepy proclamation,
Blown through the lairs of the forest-nation,
Blown past the white-ants' hill of clay,
Blown past the marsh where the butterflies play: --
"Be careful what you do,
(All the o sounds very golden. Heavy accents very
heavy.)
Light accents very light. Last line whispered.
Or Mumbo-Jumbo, God of the Congo,
And all of the other
Gods of the Congo,
Mumbo-Jumbo will hoo-doo you,
Mumbo-Jumbo will hoo-doo you,
Mumbo-Jumbo will hoo-doo you."

and were and had been savages for
thousands of years hunting with spears and they may have even had bows
and arrows. They ate wildebeest, antelope, monkeys, guineas, hyenas,
wild dogs and each other, etc., etc., etc.

That is true for all of mankind.


Not at all. Haven't you ever heard of the Greek and Roman
civilizations, for instance?

-----------------------------
You think that Romans didn't hunt animals with spears? They were still
killing lions on the Appian way in the first two centuries A.D. They
did this with spears, and not iron ones either.


That's irrelevant. They had sportsmen who went hunting, etc. The point
is, that, all the blacks did was hunt animals for food. They did not
create or build anything.

The Greeks and Romans created the greatest ancient civilizations of
ancient times.

Black people in Africa were not even civilized for thousands of years.
Many still are not.


They were captured by black savages and sold to white savages who took
them across the ocean, primarily to Brazil, but they brought your
ancestors to America.

You seem to think that everyone who disagrees with you is descended
from black slaves.


What an absurd remark.

There is nothing racist about it.

Your assumptions clearly are. They also are wrong.

Although slavery is very wrong, and
should be abolished all over the world, look how fortunate you are to
be living in America instead of living like your relatives do today in
Africa.

I have no relatives in Africa, except those that are your relatives
too.


My ancestors did not live in Africa.

And, if your ancestors had been carried to Brazil, you, more
than likely, would never have existed because most of them died.

Whose ancestors were carried to Brazil, and why is Brazil relevant?
Sounds like some fractured history.

However, you do not owe anything to the descendants of the white people
who owned you after you came here.

No one you are talking to was owned by white people (or anyone else),
and indeed probably most of us were born here.


Of course, you were born here. And, your ancestors were originally
black savages in Africa.

--------------------------------
Since we're not black, and since you're not talking about the
out-of-Africa theory, you're an idiot.


I'm sure that you are as black as they come. You speak like a savage in
Africa hundreds of years ago.

Steve


Holger

http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
  #436  
Old June 1st 04, 04:24 AM
Bob LeChevalier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:
Your ancestors were definitely black


We have no idea what color anyone's ancestors were.


Yes we do. Black people in America have relatives who are descendants
in Africa of the relatives of the black people in America at the time
they were captured by black savages in Africa.


That sentence makes no sense. But how do you know what color their
ancestors were? And how do you know what color their ancestors'
ancestors were?

and were and had been savages for
thousands of years hunting with spears and they may have even had bows
and arrows. They ate wildebeest, antelope, monkeys, guineas, hyenas,
wild dogs and each other, etc., etc., etc.


That is true for all of mankind.


Not at all. Haven't you ever heard of the Greek and Roman
civilizations, for instance?


Yes. And the Greeks and Romans had ancestors who were uncivilized
savages who lived by hunting and gathering, just like all other human
beings, and most of the evidence indicates that all of these people
ultimate had ancestors who lived in Africa. But we don't know what
color those ancestors were.

They were captured by black savages and sold to white savages who took
them across the ocean, primarily to Brazil, but they brought your
ancestors to America.


You seem to think that everyone who disagrees with you is descended
from black slaves.


What an absurd remark.


Your statement appears to be addressing someone whose ancestors were
captured by black savages (no evidence of them being savages BTW), and
there is no one in this conversation, that I know of, who fits that
description.

Although slavery is very wrong, and
should be abolished all over the world, look how fortunate you are to
be living in America instead of living like your relatives do today in
Africa.


I have no relatives in Africa, except those that are your relatives
too.


My ancestors did not live in Africa.


How do you know? Do you have a complete family tree back to the first
human being, and proof that none of them lived in Africa?

Hint: by most current theories, homo sapiens originated in Africa,
and therefore, if you are a human being, your ancestors lived in
Africa.

However, you do not owe anything to the descendants of the white people
who owned you after you came here.


No one you are talking to was owned by white people (or anyone else),
and indeed probably most of us were born here.


Of course, you were born here. And, your ancestors were originally
black savages in Africa.


Why would you think that mine were, and yours weren't?

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #437  
Old June 1st 04, 04:28 AM
Bob LeChevalier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:

Fat black bucks in a wine-barrel room,
Barrel-house kings, with feet unstable,
(A deep rolling bass.)
Sagged and reeled and pounded on the table,
Pounded on the table,
Beat an empty barrel with the handle of a broom,
Hard as they were able,
Boom, boom, BOOM,
With a silk umbrella and the handle of a broom,
Boomlay, boomlay, boomlay, BOOM.
THEN I had religion, THEN I had a vision.
I could not turn from their revel in derision.
(More deliberate. Solemnly chanted.)
THEN I SAW THE CONGO, CREEPING THROUGH THE BLACK, CUTTING THROUGH
THE FOREST WITH A GOLDEN TRACK.


PLease indicate the relevance of Vachel Lindsay.

That is true for all of mankind.

Not at all. Haven't you ever heard of the Greek and Roman
civilizations, for instance?

-----------------------------
You think that Romans didn't hunt animals with spears? They were still
killing lions on the Appian way in the first two centuries A.D. They
did this with spears, and not iron ones either.


That's irrelevant. They had sportsmen who went hunting, etc. The point
is, that, all the blacks did was hunt animals for food. They did not
create or build anything.


Wrong.

The Greeks and Romans created the greatest ancient civilizations of
ancient times.


Other civilizations probably did not agree.

Black people in Africa were not even civilized for thousands of years.


Yes they were.

Many still are not.


Cite, please.

Of course, you were born here. And, your ancestors were originally
black savages in Africa.

--------------------------------
Since we're not black, and since you're not talking about the
out-of-Africa theory, you're an idiot.


I'm sure that you are as black as they come. You speak like a savage in
Africa hundreds of years ago.


People in Africa hundreds of years ago did not speak English, dimwit.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #438  
Old June 1st 04, 05:04 AM
Holger Dansk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 31 May 2004 23:28:12 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:

Fat black bucks in a wine-barrel room,
Barrel-house kings, with feet unstable,
(A deep rolling bass.)
Sagged and reeled and pounded on the table,
Pounded on the table,
Beat an empty barrel with the handle of a broom,
Hard as they were able,
Boom, boom, BOOM,
With a silk umbrella and the handle of a broom,
Boomlay, boomlay, boomlay, BOOM.
THEN I had religion, THEN I had a vision.
I could not turn from their revel in derision.
(More deliberate. Solemnly chanted.)
THEN I SAW THE CONGO, CREEPING THROUGH THE BLACK, CUTTING THROUGH
THE FOREST WITH A GOLDEN TRACK.


PLease indicate the relevance of Vachel Lindsay.


He wrote the above poem.

That is true for all of mankind.

Not at all. Haven't you ever heard of the Greek and Roman
civilizations, for instance?
-----------------------------
You think that Romans didn't hunt animals with spears? They were still
killing lions on the Appian way in the first two centuries A.D. They
did this with spears, and not iron ones either.


That's irrelevant. They had sportsmen who went hunting, etc. The point
is, that, all the blacks did was hunt animals for food. They did not
create or build anything.


Wrong.

The Greeks and Romans created the greatest ancient civilizations of
ancient times.


Other civilizations probably did not agree.

Black people in Africa were not even civilized for thousands of years.


Yes they were.

Many still are not.


Cite, please.

Of course, you were born here. And, your ancestors were originally
black savages in Africa.
--------------------------------
Since we're not black, and since you're not talking about the
out-of-Africa theory, you're an idiot.


I'm sure that you are as black as they come. You speak like a savage in
Africa hundreds of years ago.


People in Africa hundreds of years ago did not speak English, dimwit.

lojbab


Holger

http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
  #439  
Old June 1st 04, 05:30 AM
R. Steve Walz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:17:11 GMT, "R. Steve Walz"
wrote:

Nonsense, I've been over all the territory of Determinism, it just
isn't that large, because the question is actually fairly simple.
Only ignorance and willful disregard of logic makes it seem otherwise.


You are really screwed up bad in the head. You do not live in the real
world at all, but you live in one created by a mind that, evidently,
long ago became very confused and does not function at all in a logical
or rational way. Get help at your earliest opportunity. You have lost
all of your credibility with most people.

Holger

-----------------
Oh give us all a break and stop posturing. I live in this world
everyday, just like we all do. I just know it a bit better than
you do, and you resent what I say because you have an agenda
to avoid those Truths. Quit pretending I'm wrong only because
you're terrified of the Truth.
Steve
  #440  
Old June 1st 04, 05:40 AM
R. Steve Walz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 21:08:55 GMT, "R. Steve Walz"
wrote:

What percentage of blacks in this country have any Ethiopian ancestry?
they were captured by black savages in Africa.

----------------------
Yeah, WEST africa.

I'm sure most black savages were captured in West Africa.

-------------
"Savages", you're pretending your racist delusions again.
You're nothing but a ****ty little racist.


Not at all. Haven't you ever heard of the Greek and Roman
civilizations, for instance?

-----------------------------
You think that Romans didn't hunt animals with spears? They were still
killing lions on the Appian way in the first two centuries A.D. They
did this with spears, and not iron ones either.


That's irrelevant. They had sportsmen who went hunting, etc.

--------------------------
The Roman army of the early republic was founded to kill lions on
the roads with ropes and wooden spears to protect travelers!


The point
is, that, all the blacks did was hunt animals for food. They did not
create or build anything.

-------------------------------
Nonsense, you're absolutely illiterate about African history and
the cities of Africa.


The Greeks and Romans created the greatest ancient civilizations of
ancient times.

--------------------------------
That's nonsense too, their SLAVES did most everything.
All US whites did with black slaves is pick cotton and pick their
teeth.


Black people in Africa were not even civilized for thousands of years.
Many still are not.

-------------------------------
You're living in Warner Brother's early racist cartoons, you don't
know diddley about Africa.


Of course, you were born here. And, your ancestors were originally
black savages in Africa.

--------------------------------
Since we're not black, and since you're not talking about the
out-of-Africa theory, you're an idiot.


I'm sure that you are as black as they come.

----------------
Why? I'm as pink and Nort Europaeschen as you are, ****-for-brains.


You speak like a savage in Africa hundreds of years ago.

------------------
So they spoke perfect english and had a command of english, eh?
You're a moron.
Steve
 




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