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  #511  
Old June 3rd 04, 03:11 PM
Holger Dansk
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:50:09 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:32:43 -0700, "Circe" wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:33:07 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Um, are you suggesting that Greek was the first language to have
vowels in it?

I'm not suggesting it but saying that it was.

Nonsense. It is *impossible* to speak without making vowel sounds. Period.
Vowel sounds are a necessary requirement of human speech. And Greek is
hardly the first language invented by humans, let alone the first language
to be represented by writing. Are you suggesting that the Egyptians (as just
one example), who were capable of representing names like Osiris and
Amenhotep in hieroglyphs 2000 years before the Greek alphabet was invented,
did not use vowel sounds in their languages or did not have words? Or that
the Chinese, who have been writing their language down without interruption
since 1200 BC (fully 400 years before Homer and the dissemination of the
Greek alphabet) do not now and did not when they began writing use vowels
when they spoke?

All I can say is that you are *sadly* misinformed.


Greek Alphabets

Apart from using the characters of the Greek alphabets as notations in
my maths and science classes, I don't know how to read Greek. (Sigh.
This is a real tragic.) Nor am I a linguist genius, since English is the
only language I know. English is the only language I can read and write.
(Judging by the number of spelling and grammar errors I had, I haven't
even fully mastered English.)

However, I can give you a brief history on the Greek alphabets.


Which is totally irrelevant. Language is primarily a spoken
phenomenon. Alphabets are merely one way to write down a language to
preserve it in readable form.

Every language of the world before Greek had vowels. Most of them had
NO way of being written, but they existed nonetheless. Some, the
Semitic languages, had ways of being written without vowels, because
if you know the language you can figure out the vowels, jst s ths
sntnc s ndrstndbl t mst ppl wh knw nglsh. Some, like Chinese, used
individual symbols for entire words, and thus displayed neither
consonants nor vowels. But written Chinese notwithstanding, Chinese
does have both consonants and vowels.


God help you. You are so messed up mentally. Get straightened out
quick. Life is too short. You will live it without even knowing what
was real and what was not. It seems that it may have been caused by too
much lying and being around people who do a lot. After a while, you get
to where you don't know what is real and what is not. In other words
you get out of contact with reality. Get away from the people that you
have been coming in contact with. Talk to a psychologist and/or a
psychiatrist that knows what they are doing. Not one of these damn fool
black nitwits that went to the University of Wedowee, or whatever. Make
sure they got their degree/degrees from a school like Emory Univ, Duke,
Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Princeton, Univ of GA, etc., etc. Get at
least 3 recommendations from physicians and 3 from others.

lojbab


Holger

http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
  #512  
Old June 3rd 04, 03:21 PM
Fletch F. Fletch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 12:33:32 GMT, "Fletch F. Fletch"
wrote:

R. Steve Walz wrote:
greccogirl wrote:

Oreo is simply an insult you use when a person of color doesn't
agree with you.
---------------------
When they are more racist than *I* am it GIVES me the right!
Steve


Actually, you have the right irrespective of that. But it shows how
full of crap you are when you say it has nothing to do with race
whatsoever.


It just now occurred to me. You must be some of Ike Newkirk's Sunday
morning listeners that call in almost every Sunday.


Not a clue who that is. Never called a radio show of any stripe. Listen to
sports radio almost exclusively.

Slainte,
Fletch


  #513  
Old June 3rd 04, 03:23 PM
Fletch F. Fletch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:50:09 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:32:43 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:33:07 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Um, are you suggesting that Greek was the first language to have
vowels in it?

I'm not suggesting it but saying that it was.

Nonsense. It is *impossible* to speak without making vowel sounds.
Period. Vowel sounds are a necessary requirement of human speech.
And Greek is hardly the first language invented by humans, let
alone the first language to be represented by writing. Are you
suggesting that the Egyptians (as just one example), who were
capable of representing names like Osiris and Amenhotep in
hieroglyphs 2000 years before the Greek alphabet was invented, did
not use vowel sounds in their languages or did not have words? Or
that the Chinese, who have been writing their language down
without interruption since 1200 BC (fully 400 years before Homer
and the dissemination of the Greek alphabet) do not now and did
not when they began writing use vowels when they spoke?

All I can say is that you are *sadly* misinformed.

Greek Alphabets

Apart from using the characters of the Greek alphabets as notations
in my maths and science classes, I don't know how to read Greek.
(Sigh. This is a real tragic.) Nor am I a linguist genius, since
English is the only language I know. English is the only language I
can read and write. (Judging by the number of spelling and grammar
errors I had, I haven't even fully mastered English.)

However, I can give you a brief history on the Greek alphabets.


Which is totally irrelevant. Language is primarily a spoken
phenomenon. Alphabets are merely one way to write down a language to
preserve it in readable form.

Every language of the world before Greek had vowels. Most of them
had NO way of being written, but they existed nonetheless. Some, the
Semitic languages, had ways of being written without vowels, because
if you know the language you can figure out the vowels, jst s ths
sntnc s ndrstndbl t mst ppl wh knw nglsh. Some, like Chinese, used
individual symbols for entire words, and thus displayed neither
consonants nor vowels. But written Chinese notwithstanding, Chinese
does have both consonants and vowels.


God help you. You are so messed up mentally. Get straightened out
quick. Life is too short. You will live it without even knowing what
was real and what was not. It seems that it may have been caused by
too much lying and being around people who do a lot. After a while,
you get to where you don't know what is real and what is not. In
other words you get out of contact with reality. Get away from the
people that you have been coming in contact with. Talk to a
psychologist and/or a psychiatrist that knows what they are doing.
Not one of these damn fool black nitwits that went to the University
of Wedowee, or whatever. Make sure they got their degree/degrees
from a school like Emory Univ, Duke, Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth,
Princeton, Univ of GA, etc., etc. Get at least 3 recommendations
from physicians and 3 from others.


You 'forgot' to address his point. I suspect you have realized how
amateurish your original 'vowel' ideas were. This is a good thing. No need
to base your beliefs on nonsense.

Slainte,
Fletch


  #514  
Old June 3rd 04, 03:48 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Bob LeChevalier wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:32:43 -0700, "Circe" wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:33:07 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Um, are you suggesting that Greek was the first language to have
vowels in it?

I'm not suggesting it but saying that it was.

Nonsense. It is *impossible* to speak without making vowel sounds. Period.
Vowel sounds are a necessary requirement of human speech. And Greek is
hardly the first language invented by humans, let alone the first language
to be represented by writing. Are you suggesting that the Egyptians (as just
one example), who were capable of representing names like Osiris and
Amenhotep in hieroglyphs 2000 years before the Greek alphabet was invented,
did not use vowel sounds in their languages or did not have words? Or that
the Chinese, who have been writing their language down without interruption
since 1200 BC (fully 400 years before Homer and the dissemination of the
Greek alphabet) do not now and did not when they began writing use vowels
when they spoke?

All I can say is that you are *sadly* misinformed.


Greek Alphabets

Apart from using the characters of the Greek alphabets as notations in
my maths and science classes, I don't know how to read Greek. (Sigh.
This is a real tragic.) Nor am I a linguist genius, since English is the
only language I know. English is the only language I can read and write.
(Judging by the number of spelling and grammar errors I had, I haven't
even fully mastered English.)

However, I can give you a brief history on the Greek alphabets.


Which is totally irrelevant. Language is primarily a spoken
phenomenon. Alphabets are merely one way to write down a language to
preserve it in readable form.

Every language of the world before Greek had vowels. Most of them had
NO way of being written, but they existed nonetheless. Some, the
Semitic languages, had ways of being written without vowels, because
if you know the language you can figure out the vowels, jst s ths
sntnc s ndrstndbl t mst ppl wh knw nglsh. Some, like Chinese, used
individual symbols for entire words, and thus displayed neither
consonants nor vowels. But written Chinese notwithstanding, Chinese
does have both consonants and vowels.


Reading and writing were invented by whites and Asians.
DAFNz were too Creativity-Deficient_IQ-65_GDF_Dumb...
  #515  
Old June 3rd 04, 04:25 PM
Circe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:32:43 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:33:07 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Um, are you suggesting that Greek was the first language to have
vowels in it?

I'm not suggesting it but saying that it was.

Nonsense. It is *impossible* to speak without making vowel sounds.
Period. Vowel sounds are a necessary requirement of human speech.
And Greek is hardly the first language invented by humans, let alone
the first language to be represented by writing. Are you suggesting
that the Egyptians (as just one example), who were capable of
representing names like Osiris and Amenhotep in hieroglyphs 2000
years before the Greek alphabet was invented, did not use vowel
sounds in their languages or did not have words? Or that
the Chinese, who have been writing their language down without
interruption since 1200 BC (fully 400 years before Homer and the
dissemination of the Greek alphabet) do not now and did not when
they began writing use vowels when they spoke?

All I can say is that you are *sadly* misinformed.


Greek Alphabets

Apart from using the characters of the Greek alphabets as notations
in my maths and science classes, I don't know how to read Greek.


I, however, *do* read Greek, along with Latin and a smattering of Hebrew.

I can therefore state with absolute authority that spoken Hebrew has (and
has always had) vowel sounds. In ancient times, however, writers did not
represent the vowels with letters on the page; in more recent times,
however, vowels were added to the written language with a system known as
"pointing". Most modern text of the Hebrew Bible include pointe to designate
the vowels, even though the original texts did not have them.

However, I can give you a brief history on the Greek alphabets.

As I have a Master's degree in Calssics, I am well aware of the history of
the Greek alphabet. What the text you quoted fails to note is that prior to
the development of the Greek alphabet as we know it, Greek was written in a
script known as Linear B (in use from 1500-1200 BCE). Linear B, like
Egyptian hieroglyphics and many Asian writing systems, was a syllabic
script. It was, however, Greek, and the words represented include many words
familiar to us from the later alphabetic script. In both cases, the words
had vowels.

I will, however, give you the benefit of the doubt and allow that you may
have been led by the imprecision of the text you quoted to believe that the
Greeks somehow invented the vowel sound, as in the following excepts:

"What the Greeks invented, was their own set of characters and their
introduction to the vowels in the alphabets full of consonants. The
Phoenician and other Semitic languages didn't have vowels."...


"The Greeks made many contributions to the world in addition to
putting vowels in language."


If the writer had simply accurately stated that Semitic languages didn't
have *written* vowels and that the Greeks put vowels into the *written*
language, you might not have been led so far astray. All the Greeks invented
was a method of representing a vowel sound with a written symbol. Vowel
*sounds*, OTOH, had no need to be invented, since any month-old infant is
quite capable of producing them!
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Sin (Vernon, 2), Misery (Aurora, 4), and the Rising Son (Julian, 6)

Aurora (in the bathroom with her dad)--"It looks like an elephant, Daddy."
Me (later)--"You should feel flattered."

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman


  #516  
Old June 3rd 04, 04:28 PM
Circe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:50:09 -0400, Bob LeChevalier

wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote:
However, I can give you a brief history on the Greek alphabets.


Which is totally irrelevant. Language is primarily a spoken
phenomenon. Alphabets are merely one way to write down a language
to preserve it in readable form.

Every language of the world before Greek had vowels. Most of them
had NO way of being written, but they existed nonetheless. Some, the
Semitic languages, had ways of being written without vowels,
because if you know the language you can figure out the vowels, jst s ths
sntnc s ndrstndbl t mst ppl wh knw nglsh. Some, like Chinese, used
individual symbols for entire words, and thus displayed neither
consonants nor vowels. But written Chinese notwithstanding,
Chinese does have both consonants and vowels.


God help you. You are so messed up mentally. Get straightened out
quick. Life is too short. You will live it without even knowing
what was real and what was not. It seems that it may have been
caused by too much lying and being around people who do a lot.
After a while, you get to where you don't know what is real and
what is not. In other words you get out of contact with reality.
Get away from the people that you have been coming in contact with.
Talk to a psychologist and/or a psychiatrist that knows what they are
doing. Not one of these damn fool black nitwits that went to the
University of Wedowee, or whatever. Make sure they got their
degree/degrees from a school like Emory Univ, Duke, Harvard,
Yale, Dartmouth, Princeton, Univ of GA, etc., etc. Get at
least 3 recommendations from physicians and 3 from others.


Congratulations, Bob. Target destroyed.
--
Be well, Barbara

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman


  #517  
Old June 3rd 04, 05:12 PM
Herman Rubin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:33:07 -0700, "Circe" wrote:


Um, are you suggesting that Greek was the first language to have vowels in
it?


I'm not suggesting it but saying that it was.


Holger


At most, you can claim that Greek was the first language to
have an ALPHABETIC system of writing with all vowels being
EXPLICIT. One could make a case for this, but at least the
Indian alphabet independently introduced vowels, and I do
not believe that the Persian alphabet of the Behistun Rock,
which does have vowels, is based on the earlier Semitic one.
At least Grotefend did not find that to be the case when he
deciphered the inscription.



--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
  #518  
Old June 3rd 04, 05:23 PM
Holger Dansk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:23:42 GMT, "Fletch F. Fletch"
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:50:09 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:32:43 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:33:07 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Um, are you suggesting that Greek was the first language to have
vowels in it?

I'm not suggesting it but saying that it was.

Nonsense. It is *impossible* to speak without making vowel sounds.
Period. Vowel sounds are a necessary requirement of human speech.
And Greek is hardly the first language invented by humans, let
alone the first language to be represented by writing. Are you
suggesting that the Egyptians (as just one example), who were
capable of representing names like Osiris and Amenhotep in
hieroglyphs 2000 years before the Greek alphabet was invented, did
not use vowel sounds in their languages or did not have words? Or
that the Chinese, who have been writing their language down
without interruption since 1200 BC (fully 400 years before Homer
and the dissemination of the Greek alphabet) do not now and did
not when they began writing use vowels when they spoke?

All I can say is that you are *sadly* misinformed.

Greek Alphabets

Apart from using the characters of the Greek alphabets as notations
in my maths and science classes, I don't know how to read Greek.
(Sigh. This is a real tragic.) Nor am I a linguist genius, since
English is the only language I know. English is the only language I
can read and write. (Judging by the number of spelling and grammar
errors I had, I haven't even fully mastered English.)

However, I can give you a brief history on the Greek alphabets.

Which is totally irrelevant. Language is primarily a spoken
phenomenon. Alphabets are merely one way to write down a language to
preserve it in readable form.

Every language of the world before Greek had vowels. Most of them
had NO way of being written, but they existed nonetheless. Some, the
Semitic languages, had ways of being written without vowels, because
if you know the language you can figure out the vowels, jst s ths
sntnc s ndrstndbl t mst ppl wh knw nglsh. Some, like Chinese, used
individual symbols for entire words, and thus displayed neither
consonants nor vowels. But written Chinese notwithstanding, Chinese
does have both consonants and vowels.


God help you. You are so messed up mentally. Get straightened out
quick. Life is too short. You will live it without even knowing what
was real and what was not. It seems that it may have been caused by
too much lying and being around people who do a lot. After a while,
you get to where you don't know what is real and what is not. In
other words you get out of contact with reality. Get away from the
people that you have been coming in contact with. Talk to a
psychologist and/or a psychiatrist that knows what they are doing.
Not one of these damn fool black nitwits that went to the University
of Wedowee, or whatever. Make sure they got their degree/degrees
from a school like Emory Univ, Duke, Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth,
Princeton, Univ of GA, etc., etc. Get at least 3 recommendations
from physicians and 3 from others.


You 'forgot' to address his point. I suspect you have realized how
amateurish your original 'vowel' ideas were. This is a good thing. No need
to base your beliefs on nonsense.


Don't you see? He doesn't have a point and doesn't understand at all.

Slainte,
Fletch

Holger

http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
  #519  
Old June 3rd 04, 05:31 PM
Holger Dansk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 08:25:52 -0700, "Circe" wrote:

If the writer had simply accurately stated that Semitic languages didn't
have *written* vowels and that the Greeks put vowels into the *written*
language, you might not have been led so far astray. All the Greeks invented
was a method of representing a vowel sound with a written symbol.


That's what putting vowels in a language is.

Vowel *sounds*, OTOH, had no need to be invented, since any month-old infant is
quite capable of producing them!


Of course there was every need for vowels. It gave the Greeks an
advantage because they were able to create new words easier. In order
to communicate you have to be able to write words down. Not just make
sounds like savages sending drum messages through the jungle.

Bwana, the natives are restless tonight. :-)

Holger

http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
  #520  
Old June 3rd 04, 05:32 PM
Fletch F. Fletch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:23:42 GMT, "Fletch F. Fletch"
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:50:09 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:32:43 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:33:07 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Um, are you suggesting that Greek was the first language to
have vowels in it?

I'm not suggesting it but saying that it was.

Nonsense. It is *impossible* to speak without making vowel
sounds. Period. Vowel sounds are a necessary requirement of
human speech. And Greek is hardly the first language invented by
humans, let alone the first language to be represented by
writing. Are you suggesting that the Egyptians (as just one
example), who were capable of representing names like Osiris and
Amenhotep in hieroglyphs 2000 years before the Greek alphabet
was invented, did not use vowel sounds in their languages or did
not have words? Or that the Chinese, who have been writing their
language down without interruption since 1200 BC (fully 400
years before Homer and the dissemination of the Greek alphabet)
do not now and did not when they began writing use vowels when
they spoke?

All I can say is that you are *sadly* misinformed.

Greek Alphabets

Apart from using the characters of the Greek alphabets as
notations in my maths and science classes, I don't know how to
read Greek. (Sigh. This is a real tragic.) Nor am I a linguist
genius, since English is the only language I know. English is the
only language I can read and write. (Judging by the number of
spelling and grammar errors I had, I haven't even fully mastered
English.)

However, I can give you a brief history on the Greek alphabets.

Which is totally irrelevant. Language is primarily a spoken
phenomenon. Alphabets are merely one way to write down a language
to preserve it in readable form.

Every language of the world before Greek had vowels. Most of them
had NO way of being written, but they existed nonetheless. Some,
the Semitic languages, had ways of being written without vowels,
because if you know the language you can figure out the vowels,
jst s ths sntnc s ndrstndbl t mst ppl wh knw nglsh. Some, like
Chinese, used individual symbols for entire words, and thus
displayed neither consonants nor vowels. But written Chinese
notwithstanding, Chinese does have both consonants and vowels.

God help you. You are so messed up mentally. Get straightened out
quick. Life is too short. You will live it without even knowing
what was real and what was not. It seems that it may have been
caused by too much lying and being around people who do a lot.
After a while, you get to where you don't know what is real and
what is not. In other words you get out of contact with reality.
Get away from the people that you have been coming in contact with.
Talk to a psychologist and/or a psychiatrist that knows what they
are doing. Not one of these damn fool black nitwits that went to
the University of Wedowee, or whatever. Make sure they got their
degree/degrees from a school like Emory Univ, Duke, Harvard, Yale,
Dartmouth, Princeton, Univ of GA, etc., etc. Get at least 3
recommendations from physicians and 3 from others.


You 'forgot' to address his point. I suspect you have realized how
amateurish your original 'vowel' ideas were. This is a good thing.
No need to base your beliefs on nonsense.


Don't you see? He doesn't have a point and doesn't understand at all.


What I see is that you are in over your head. Bob and Circe have defanged
your argument, and you are left with only transparent forensic devices.
This is clear even to you, I imagine. Such is the problem with digging your
heels in before you know what you are talking about. You have no
face-saving exit.

Slainte,
Fletch


 




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