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Bill Cosby - NAACP leaders stunned by remarks of prominent comedian



 
 
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  #541  
Old June 4th 04, 04:48 AM
R. Steve Walz
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Holger Dansk wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:23:42 GMT, "Fletch F. Fletch"
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:50:09 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:32:43 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:33:07 -0700, "Circe"
wrote:
Um, are you suggesting that Greek was the first language to have
vowels in it?

I'm not suggesting it but saying that it was.

Nonsense. It is *impossible* to speak without making vowel sounds.
Period. Vowel sounds are a necessary requirement of human speech.
And Greek is hardly the first language invented by humans, let
alone the first language to be represented by writing. Are you
suggesting that the Egyptians (as just one example), who were
capable of representing names like Osiris and Amenhotep in
hieroglyphs 2000 years before the Greek alphabet was invented, did
not use vowel sounds in their languages or did not have words? Or
that the Chinese, who have been writing their language down
without interruption since 1200 BC (fully 400 years before Homer
and the dissemination of the Greek alphabet) do not now and did
not when they began writing use vowels when they spoke?

All I can say is that you are *sadly* misinformed.

Greek Alphabets

Apart from using the characters of the Greek alphabets as notations
in my maths and science classes, I don't know how to read Greek.
(Sigh. This is a real tragic.) Nor am I a linguist genius, since
English is the only language I know. English is the only language I
can read and write. (Judging by the number of spelling and grammar
errors I had, I haven't even fully mastered English.)

However, I can give you a brief history on the Greek alphabets.

Which is totally irrelevant. Language is primarily a spoken
phenomenon. Alphabets are merely one way to write down a language to
preserve it in readable form.

Every language of the world before Greek had vowels. Most of them
had NO way of being written, but they existed nonetheless. Some, the
Semitic languages, had ways of being written without vowels, because
if you know the language you can figure out the vowels, jst s ths
sntnc s ndrstndbl t mst ppl wh knw nglsh. Some, like Chinese, used
individual symbols for entire words, and thus displayed neither
consonants nor vowels. But written Chinese notwithstanding, Chinese
does have both consonants and vowels.

God help you. You are so messed up mentally. Get straightened out
quick. Life is too short. You will live it without even knowing what
was real and what was not. It seems that it may have been caused by
too much lying and being around people who do a lot. After a while,
you get to where you don't know what is real and what is not. In
other words you get out of contact with reality. Get away from the
people that you have been coming in contact with. Talk to a
psychologist and/or a psychiatrist that knows what they are doing.
Not one of these damn fool black nitwits that went to the University
of Wedowee, or whatever. Make sure they got their degree/degrees
from a school like Emory Univ, Duke, Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth,
Princeton, Univ of GA, etc., etc. Get at least 3 recommendations
from physicians and 3 from others.


You 'forgot' to address his point. I suspect you have realized how
amateurish your original 'vowel' ideas were. This is a good thing. No need
to base your beliefs on nonsense.
Slainte,
Fletch


Don't you see? He doesn't have a point and doesn't understand at all.
Holger

------------------
No. That would be you!
Steve
  #542  
Old June 4th 04, 07:29 AM
Bob LeChevalier
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Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 13:38:45 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

wrote:
Reading and writing were invented by whites and Asians.


Really? Got any names?

Guess those people in Upper Egypt weren't reading and writing.


South of the Sahara they were running around chasing wildebeest, etc.


What do you think they were doing in Northern Europe in 3000 BC?

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #544  
Old June 4th 04, 07:34 AM
Bob LeChevalier
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Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 13:47:23 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

In order to communicate you have to be able to write words down.


Really? You mean no one on earth communicated until 3000BC? You mean
that the American Indians could not communicate, since they had no
written language? Or to you think they just walked around saying
"How!" all the time.


Making sounds is just part of communicating. To be able to record your
history and what you have learned is extremely important for any group
of people.


It was important to RECORDED history. But there are languages even
today with no written form, and people communicate just fine.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #545  
Old June 4th 04, 07:39 AM
Bob LeChevalier
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Default

Holger Dansk wrote:
These knuckleheads keep talking about spoken language which began about
30,000 years ago. I wonder if they even know what a vowel is?


Better than you do.

For their information, the modern English vowels are a, e, i, o, and u.


No. Those are the alphabetic symbols for vowels. The typical dialect
of English has some 15 different vowels, as exemplified and symbolized
at
http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon.../newstart.html

These are letters that are written, and they should have learned how to
write some letters in the first grade. Written language began about
3,000 years ago.


Vowels are a phenomenon of spoken language. There are USUALLY more of
them than there are representations in an alphabet.

We are not talking about some guttural grunting noises made 20,000 or
30,000 years ago. Forget about that doo doo.


We have no way of knowing what kind of language existed 20,000 or
30,000 years ago. It likely was NOT "grunting noises" though,
clueless.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #546  
Old June 4th 04, 07:47 AM
Bob LeChevalier
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Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:47:28 -0700, "Circe" wrote:
snip quote which has no relevance to the subject at hand


It is totally relevant. To learn, you will have to do some listening.
Notice the word "vowel" in the paragraph below.

"The North Semitic alphabet was used to represent Aramaic and Hebrew,
and was borrowed by the Phoenicians in approx. 1000 B.C., being passed
on by them to the Greeks, who added vowels, and thence to the Etruscans
in about 800 B.C. The Etruscan alphabet was the source of the Roman
alphabet that has since been adopted for use in many languages around
the world."

You see, it says that the Greeks added vowels.


TO THE ALPHABET.

NOT to the language.

Bob and I *have* stated that vowel sounds are a component of all human
languages and have therefore presumably been present in human language since
its earliest development.


We are talking about vowels in the alphabet, not grunting sounds and
screeches that people made.


Maybe that is what YOU are talking about now, but you originally
talked about adding vowels to the LANGUAGE, which exists whether or
not there is an alphabet.

There is *no* exstant human language that does not
consist of both consonant and vowel sounds, whether it was ever committed to
a native writing system by its speakers.


But, for a civilization to make progress, you have to be able to write
your words down and record them. Why can't you get it through your
thick head that we are talking about vowels in an alphabet used in a
language or languages? It's like talking to a fence post.


There is nothing sacred about any particular alphabet. If you write
English in a different alphabet, it may have more vowels or fewer.
Greek can be written in the Greek alphabet, or in the Roman one.
Russian can be written in Cyrillic, or with some difficulty in the
Roman one. The alphabet is not the language.

These are letters that are written, and they should have learned
how to write some letters in the first grade.


And we all learned to say them years before we learned to write them. Ergo,
there is no relationship between *written* vowels and *spoken* ones. Ergo,
you are full of ****.


That may be why black people have trouble with language. Maybe they
don't pay any attention to the way anything is spelled.


Spelling is convention. The Founders of the United States did not pay
much attention to how things were spelled. Shakespeare was even less
consistent - he spelled his name several different ways. Are you
going to say that Shakespeare had trouble with language?

But then, we all knew that already.


Unfortunately, you don't know anything much.


Several times as much as you do, since most of what you "know" is
wrong.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
http://www.lojban.org
  #547  
Old June 4th 04, 07:57 AM
Holger Dansk
external usenet poster
 
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Default

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 03:45:22 GMT, "R. Steve Walz"
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:33:07 -0700, "Circe" wrote:

Um, are you suggesting that Greek was the first language to have vowels in
it?


I'm not suggesting it but saying that it was.

Holger

-------------------
You need a course in linguistics - written vowels were merely written
first by the Indians and Greeks, and before that written language was
merely a form of consonantal shorthand for speech. It doesn't mean
people didn't SAY the vowels!!!
Steve


Eureka!!!!!!!!!!!! There you go!!!!!!!!!! The Greeks were the first to
put the vowels in the alphabet!!!!! You finally got it!!!!!!!

Holger

http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
  #548  
Old June 4th 04, 08:17 AM
Holger Dansk
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Default

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 02:29:45 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 13:38:45 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

wrote:
Reading and writing were invented by whites and Asians.

Really? Got any names?

Guess those people in Upper Egypt weren't reading and writing.


South of the Sahara they were running around chasing wildebeest, etc.


What do you think they were doing in Northern Europe in 3000 BC?


Well, in about 2560 BC, north of the Sahara, (We were talking about
Africa, not northern Europe.) a Copt/pharaoh named Khufu built a large
pyramid in Giza, an ancient necropolis (cemetery) of Memphis. Today,
Giza is part of Greater Cairo, Egypt.

The black savages south of the Sahara were playing with dung beetles and
buying and selling each other and eating hyena sausage. :-)

lojbab


Holger

http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
  #550  
Old June 4th 04, 08:25 AM
Holger Dansk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 02:47:02 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote:

Holger Dansk wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:47:28 -0700, "Circe" wrote:
snip quote which has no relevance to the subject at hand


It is totally relevant. To learn, you will have to do some listening.
Notice the word "vowel" in the paragraph below.

"The North Semitic alphabet was used to represent Aramaic and Hebrew,
and was borrowed by the Phoenicians in approx. 1000 B.C., being passed
on by them to the Greeks, who added vowels, and thence to the Etruscans
in about 800 B.C. The Etruscan alphabet was the source of the Roman
alphabet that has since been adopted for use in many languages around
the world."

You see, it says that the Greeks added vowels.


TO THE ALPHABET.

NOT to the language.


The language was written with the alphabet.

Bob and I *have* stated that vowel sounds are a component of all human
languages and have therefore presumably been present in human language since
its earliest development.


We are talking about vowels in the alphabet, not grunting sounds and
screeches that people made.


Maybe that is what YOU are talking about now, but you originally
talked about adding vowels to the LANGUAGE, which exists whether or
not there is an alphabet.


But the words of the language are written with an alphabet, and the
Greeks added vowels to theirs.

There is *no* exstant human language that does not
consist of both consonant and vowel sounds, whether it was ever committed to
a native writing system by its speakers.


But, for a civilization to make progress, you have to be able to write
your words down and record them. Why can't you get it through your
thick head that we are talking about vowels in an alphabet used in a
language or languages? It's like talking to a fence post.


There is nothing sacred about any particular alphabet. If you write
English in a different alphabet, it may have more vowels or fewer.
Greek can be written in the Greek alphabet, or in the Roman one.
Russian can be written in Cyrillic, or with some difficulty in the
Roman one. The alphabet is not the language.

These are letters that are written, and they should have learned
how to write some letters in the first grade.

And we all learned to say them years before we learned to write them. Ergo,
there is no relationship between *written* vowels and *spoken* ones. Ergo,
you are full of ****.


That may be why black people have trouble with language. Maybe they
don't pay any attention to the way anything is spelled.


Spelling is convention. The Founders of the United States did not pay
much attention to how things were spelled. Shakespeare was even less
consistent - he spelled his name several different ways. Are you
going to say that Shakespeare had trouble with language?

But then, we all knew that already.


Unfortunately, you don't know anything much.


Several times as much as you do, since most of what you "know" is
wrong.

lojbab


Holger

http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm
 




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