lying

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:51:12 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

In article ,
(Kane) wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:52:34 GMT, (Robyn
Kozierok) wrote:

The best thing to do if your kid lies.......

Well, if you are going to insist on lying to yourself, insist also
on
punishment models, then here's what I'd suggest:

The next time your kid catches you telling the police officer a fib
about your speed, or your friend that the color of that dress makes
her eyes sparkle, the neighbor that "no, our dog was locked in the
yard all day," you let him send you to your room, tell you to think
about what you are saying, and especially to go back and tell the
other person the truth...

Not all of us DO things like that, Kane. I've never lied to a police
officer about anything,

You are writing from jail then? Or you haven't been asked any hard
questions? My, you are something special.

I can always find SOMETHING nice to say about
something someone is wearing when asked a direct question,

I know. That is a perfect example. I am talking about, or wouldn't
have used the example, the garment being a horror for the wearing and
you are covering up. "find SOMETHING nice to say" is the mechanics of
socially except fibs I'm describing.

I wouldn't
lock a dog in the yard all day, nevermind lie to a neighbor about it
--

OH stop it.

I'm talking about your neighbor being offended with a potential for
suit and other unpleasantness like turning you into the cops, or even
just being on the outs with your family.

I don't lie to people about whether I'm home, or ask my kids to, I
value
my own integrity and do NOT engage in so called "social lies".

Oh. Sorry...but I have a hunch YOU just told one.

If asked you'll tell anyone that asks if you are going to be away from
home, right?

Come now. We do deceptive things all the time to avoid crime, and
unpleasantness. There are even businesses that are based on it.

Have you ever thought of buying an "Alarmed" sticker for you windows
when you don't even own an alarm system, to fool burglars? Do you
leave you car in an unattended parking lot at the airport, with your
registration in it (in my state you must keep your registration in you
car....I break that law at the airport...and no cop complains...even
the ones I tell about it........they do the same thing...lie).

That
doesn't mean I'm unkind

Of course not, because you are NOT getting the point.

or not interested in protecting my self, by I do
not lie.

Because you are NOT getting the point.

You DO lie and you are describing it. You are just reframing it for
yourself. A burglar would call you dishonest. Your friend, upon asking
an image consultant, paid to tell the truth, would know that you saved
her feelings with an acceptable social fabrication. She'd like you for
it but to a child this kind of action IS A BAD BAD BAD LIE MOMMY TOLD.

I do sometimes refuse to answer a question.

According to the ancient New Webster's Dictionary of the English
Language (my mother gave it too me when I was 12...and that's the
solemn TRUTH) a lie is any attempt to DECEIVE by commission, or get
this.....................OMISSION.

If you are asked and you do not answer you are attempting to deceive.

We ALL lie, that is are untruthful. Kids are mightily confused by this
dualism...that we insist lying is bad and they not do it and YOU have
a history they KNOW that includes telling untruths to them and to
others for as long as they have known you.

They do NOT have the sophistication to assign the socially necessary
"fib" from a bald face lie.

And YOU aren't teaching properly when you pretend that all social
lies, just like MOST of those they tell, are nasty evil bad things
they must not do.

snip

Deceiving. Don't blush. We all do it.

I just want your kids to trust you and learn the truth about lying.

Here, maybe this will help:

http://www.mycweb.com/megillah/jul20...out_lying.html

Kane

I do tell my kids the truth about lying; it costs you your own
integrity.

Then you have most certainly lost yours. You have lied to me, and
publically.

You tried to convince me that "finding something nice to say" isn't
lying, isn't deceiving....another giving you unspoken right to lie to
them for the sake of their feelings is still a lie.

You know perfectly well and said so, that you woud protect yourself
from crime by using deception...these are not only strictly speaking,
lies, they confuse the heck out of kids when you punish them from
protecting themselves from you, like hiding their goodies from you.

Integrity...good bye.

And given that kids have to deceive themselves to learn to accept the
lies you are telling them as "the truth" it isn't just YOUR integrity
at stake here.

This is the kind of situational ethics that has put this country at
great risk. Reframing all kinds of scullduggery into acceptable
minimizing and rationalizing.

This kind of parenting is where Enron execs come from. You don't think
they were raised without lies and denial of same do you?

Go tell your kid you lied. That there are lies for a purpose and there
are lies that in context should never be told, and explore what those
are together, knowing it will never fully resolved but that YOU, their
trusted coach and mentor, are honest enough to truthful enough to
admit the complexity of this and help them learn.

meh

Kane

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 04:44:38 +0100 (CET), George Orwell
wrote:

Basically get your kids to trust you and then they won't feel they
have anything to gain from lying ?!

no, they'll know they have everything to gain from lying because even
if
they get caught, you'll fawn all over them anyway.

Odd that children that are punished severely for lying tend to learn
to be more clever at lying and will routinely and without any cause
whatsoever, "lie for practice, and SURVIVAL" and children like Chris'
and hundreds of others I know parented the same way, haven't lied for
7 years, and 40 years in the case of my own children, after being
gently instructed and guided with kindness.

Isn't it?

Must bugger your mind up somethin' fearce.

But then, regarding you, there is no easy comprehension of the
criminal mind your statement describes.

Lie some more for us.

Kane