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#61
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Question for religious parents
-L. wrote: Barbara wrote: The question wasn't related to people who want to jam religion down your throat. The question was whether your average religious person would mind their kid being friendly with an atheist child. I thought not. Then someone popped up saying that she would prefer that her child not associate with *bible thumpers* -- which in that context I took to mean *any* religious person. "Bible thumper" is slang for an Evangelical Christian. Yes ... and a rather derogatory slang, I might add. But not every religious person is an Evangelical Xtian. Or a *bible thumper* Marie has since stated that her post was not intended as I read it. My point, however, remains. And I maintain -- why is it *more* acceptable for non-religious people to shun religious people than vice versa? Perhaps I misinterpreted the words of the OP, and what she REALLY meant to say was that while she welcomed her children's friendships not only with people in the communities she mentioned, but with religious people of all persuasions, she would prefer that they need befriend the children of prostelytizers. Frankly, I've encountered a lot more NON-religious people who feel free to call me crazy for my beliefs, and who challenge me at every step, than I ever have religious people trying to proselytize. I find both equally offensive, however. Again, however, most *religious* people do not proselytize. I disagree. I suspect those who proselytize consider themselves *very* religious. -L. Of course they do, Lyn. But the fact that most people who proselytize are religious does not mean that most religious people proselytize. (Most rapists are men. That doesn't mean all men are rapists.) Moreover, it doesn't change my experience that many of my non-religious friends feel free to comment on and criticize my religion observance. Yet if I were to so much as suggest that they might get something out of it, I would be considered obnoxious. Its quite the double standard. Barbara Barbara |
#62
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Question for religious parents
Barbara, I think your experiences are the exception to the rule
honestly...most non religious people don't have any reason to tell religious people how to live thier lives. Religious people on the other hand do have a personal reason for doing so, and that is that they fear people going to hell and/or they are told that they are supposed to by thier interpretation of the bible or thier preachers. So I don't doubt this happens now and then, but by and large, it's the other way around. |
#63
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Question for religious parents
Barbara wrote: Yes ... and a rather derogatory slang, I might add. But not every religious person is an Evangelical Xtian. Or a *bible thumper* Well, that sort of goes without saying, doesn't it? snip Again, however, most *religious* people do not proselytize. I disagree. I suspect those who proselytize consider themselves *very* religious. -L. Of course they do, Lyn. But the fact that most people who proselytize are religious does not mean that most religious people proselytize. I guess I have problems with the word "most". I don't know how you could ever determine whether or not "most" religious people proselytize simply because what one person considers "religious" another does not. Change it to "many" and I would agree. (Most rapists are men. That doesn't mean all men are rapists.) Moreover, it doesn't change my experience that many of my non-religious friends feel free to comment on and criticize my religion observance. Yet if I were to so much as suggest that they might get something out of it, I would be considered obnoxious. Its quite the double standard. That's not been my experience. In fact, I have found the atheists and agnostics extremely tolerant of those who are observant Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. within my circle of experience, both professionally and personally. The only things I have ever seen an agnostic or atheist get upset about are proselytization, and those who seek to convert Biblical law into Federal law. They generally don't take kindly to the mixing of church and state. -L. |
#64
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Question for religious parents
toypup wrote: "Rosalie B." wrote in message ... There was a case - in one of the Carolinas (?) where the young boy (grade school age) was coming to school and preaching on the playground (I mean the kind of preaching that was LOUD) and telling not only the other children but also the teachers that they were going to hell. His parents felt that this was his right to do under free speech and freedom to practice his religion. OTOH this was on public property (not a private or religious school) where religion shouldn't be practiced. [Note - this is a US public and private school - I know the terminology is different in England] The teachers did not care for him telling them that they were going to hell as they felt it was disrespectful and disruptive (which it was). The parents of the other children were upset and so were the children themselves. I don't remember how this was resolved. I remember that. I think most of it was the parents' doing. They encouraged it, but only of their sons. The girl was not allowed to do it because it was the boys' job. Their DD just stood behind the boys and handed out leaflets. They had the poor kids on the talk shows, using language I doubt most kids understood. Yeah, one of the news briefs here (3rd from bottom) describes it: http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/1988_June/News_Briefs.htm I don't know what finally happened (other than the kids' suspension); I couldn't find any reference to a court case. Clisby |
#65
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Question for religious parents
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#66
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Question for religious parents
Barbara writes:
Yep, I know what the word means. And again, in context, I understood that the person to whose post I was responding categorized ALL religious people as *Bible thumpers* -- and that she would prefer that her children not associate with any of them. But can you explain *why* you understood that? There was nothing in the post to suggest that, as far as I could see. She said she wanted to keep her children away from "Bible thumpers", not from religious people in general. I think you're reading a suggestion that wasn't there. I don't think proselytising atheists are any more acceptable than proselytising religious people. I do, however, think they're a *lot* less common. I can believe that people who bring up religion in the presence of an atheist sometimes get more than they bargained for *in reply*, but I just don't find plausible the picture of the atheist hairdresser checking that the client doesn't believe any of this religious nonsense before proceeding to cut the client's hair, to reverse an example that was given in the thread. It just doesn't happen, IME. Sidheag DS Colin Oct 27 2003 |
#67
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Question for religious parents
"-L." wrote in
oups.com: Chookie wrote: snip No, of course not. How else do we get to make converts? :-) God I hate that attitude. hence the smiley... snip From a Christian POV, religious discussion produces Christians. And that one as well. FWIW not all "Christians" share those beliefs. of course not. but evangelicals are "called" to spread the word (i think that is supposed to be capitallized)... IME, the absolute *worst* for rabid Christianity are those recently converted themselves, kinda like ex-smokers crusading against tobacco. however, those people are either ignorable or avoidable in most cases. i "lost" an excellent veterinarian when he was converted from agnostic Jew to evangelical Christianity (thankfully i had already quit dating him). i just refuse to deal with a business that answers the phone with "Praise the Lord"... no matter how great a vet he was. my town has an after school program *in* the school run by the local evangelical church. there's one more reason my son won't be attending public school here. no, he wouldn't have to join, but the peer pressure if you don't (especially for a kid that is 'odd' already) is just awful. lee -- war is peace freedom is slavery ignorance is strength 1984-George Orwell |
#68
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Question for religious parents
Chookie wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer wrote: Neither your child nor you should be discussing religion with other folks. There's a reason Miss Manners declares religion out of bounds for polite social conversation. Yep. No discussing religion, politics, sex or death. The only problem is that IME this means that some people *never* get around to thinking about these subjects (well, apart from sex, I imagine!) at all... until a crisis occurs. They then suffer a great deal from having to grow so much in a short time. For one example, see "Sofia Petrovna", by Lydia Chukovskaya -- I believe it's available in translation now. Or you may already know people who refuse to think. They've always voted for party X, thank you very much... Most of interesting subjects have political or religious overtones, anyhow. Even the weather, these days! I wonder what Miss Manners *does* talk about. I don't really think it's a problem at all. You develop close frienships where you can talk about more personal/sensitive things. There are forums where such talk is appropriate. There are lots of ways to get information, and lots of venues for having appropriate discussions. You just don't bring it up in exactly the sorts of contexts that the OP is worried about. You only discuss these sensitive subjects in situations where it's not going to ambush other people by putting them in uncomfortable situations. I think most people do wonder about these sensitive issues at one time or another, and can find appropriate places to discuss them when they do. And, there are plenty of other things to discuss, at least in my experience. People have interesting lives. All you have to do is ask some broad, non-invasive questions and all sorts of safe topics usually pop up. Best wishes, Ericka |
#69
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Question for religious parents
Sidheag McCormack wrote:
Barbara writes: Yep, I know what the word means. And again, in context, I understood that the person to whose post I was responding categorized ALL religious people as *Bible thumpers* -- and that she would prefer that her children not associate with any of them. But can you explain *why* you understood that? There was nothing in the post to suggest that, as far as I could see. She said she wanted to keep her children away from "Bible thumpers", not from religious people in general. I think you're reading a suggestion that wasn't there. I accept that's not what Marie meant, since she since clarified what she said. But here's how it went: Q: Will religious people (NOT *Bible thumpers*) allow their kids to be friends with atheists. A: I prefer that my kids not be friends with *Bible thumpers* (*Do you let your children go to Steve's house?* *I would never permit my child to go to the house of a child molester* Do you read in *But Steve's house is just fine; its just child molesters I don't like* or do you read *I think Steve is a child molester* Well, that's what happened here.) Well, the QUESTION had nothing to DO with *Bible thumpers* It had to do with ordinary, religious people. Assuming that the ANSWER referred to the QUESTION, rather than to something from left field, it appeared that all religious people were being referred to as *Bible thumpers* Otherwise, the answer SHOULD have indicated that while most religious people are just fine and dandy, there are a few *Bible thumpers* that are problematic. I don't think proselytising atheists are any more acceptable than proselytising religious people. I do, however, think they're a *lot* less common. I can believe that people who bring up religion in the presence of an atheist sometimes get more than they bargained for *in reply*, but I just don't find plausible the picture of the atheist hairdresser checking that the client doesn't believe any of this religious nonsense before proceeding to cut the client's hair, to reverse an example that was given in the thread. It just doesn't happen, IME. Well, I'm glad that you're so able to dismiss all of my life experiences as a complete lie. Come on down to my office some time, and hear friends and colleagues I've known for years tell me that its really OK for me to eat non-kosher food, that's not what G-d meant. Listen to secular friends telling me how difficult I am because I won't get in a car on Shabbos, or eat at a non-kosher restaurant. Hear secular people berate us as *separationist* because our kids don't play in their sports leagues -- which they schedule on Shabbos, when we can't play. Or people simply out and out tell me that I'm nuts. A favorite story of mine -- I was in the park with One, chatting with a secular friend. A few religious boys (black pants, white shirts, payas, large velvet kippot) were playing baseball in the area where kids normally play baseball (its not really a field, but kids have been using that area for years). Secular people were tsk-tsking about how THOSE kids were playing so THEIR kids couldn't. So my son -- wearing jeans, tee shirt and baseball cap, and looking about as secular as the next kid -- went over and said *can I play* *Sure; you bat last* Within 10 minutes, there were kids of every race and religion, secular and religious, happily playing baseball. There were just too many assumptions being made by the secular people. Barbara |
#70
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Question for religious parents
In article ,
"Marie" wrote: I was raised in baptist churches, and the children and teens were always given tracts to pass out to sinners. We were taught that one of the things to show you were a Christian was to witness to others. I would describe the desire to prostyletize more generously: when I was a teen, I genuinely believed that anyone who didn't convert was going to hell. Thus, if I loved people, I truely wanted them to "find Jesus" so they wouldn't suffer eternal damnation. Remebering that makes me more tolerant towards those who would try to convert me. However, it doesn't mean I have to put up with it -- it just means I'm polite about stopping them. If it weren't for people who were willing to talk about thier religions, I never would have found Unitarian Universalism -- before a discussion with several other mothers when my babies were infants, I had been unaware that such a liberal faith existed. So I am loath to insist that religion be treated as something that can't be discussed. It just has to be respectful discussion. -- Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care |
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