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#21
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Kids should work !!!
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:30:24 -0800, Doan wrote:
By the time kids get to juvenile halls they have already been punished by parents and others and it has not worked. So we certainly need to do something different. So why punish them more? Let's get rid of juvenile hall! Let's compare your alternatives under the same conditions and see what work best. It is not likely that society will choose this because it means they would have to provide real one on one counselling for each of these children and that costs money. It would be more effective to teach the parents to use positive methods when the child is much younger. And it is much more effective too, if a child has parents who care about him and don't abuse him. Children learn what they live. If you treat a child with punishment and harsh discipline as a toddler, expect to have this returned 7 fold when he is a teenager. You cannot make up for all the abuses that these kids have suffered by more punishment, but I see no hope that society will change and try other methods. If you can do away with them and provide the people to actually help these kids, then I would be perfectly happy to try it. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#22
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Kids should work !!!
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:30:24 -0800, Doan wrote:
If punishment worked to get people to be self-disciplined, we would not need police because they already would have learned right from wrong and would be doing what is right. But punishment doesn't work, and in fact it creates people whose ethical level is so low that they will do what they wish without regard to whether it is right or wrong. They will figure if they don't get caught, then doing the *crime* is fine. It's not a either/or dichotomy! It is about striking a balance and finding what work for each individual children. It is the overuse of reward and punishment that is bad. No, it's the entire concept that is bad. When you use external rewards and punishments, you demotivate the child and make him dependent on the externals. I have recently been talking to an adult in another forum who exemplifies this very well. He does some good things, but only if someone else recognizes his good work. He doesn't have any inner sense that makes him feel good when he does something good, but has to be thanked and in proportion to what he thinks is due. By the same token, the only thing that keeps him from crimes is fear of punishment. So he has no inner compass that says that the crime itself is wrong, but he has enough fear of getting caught that he will not commit the crime. This is the overall result of not teaching right and wrong in the first place and of relying on external discipline instead of helping children find a moral compass. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#23
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Kids should work !!!
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#24
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Kids should work !!!
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#25
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Kids should work !!!
And for the real word, children should learn that society will reward them for good behaviors and PUNISH them for bad behaviors. It is just common-sense. Is it necessary for the parent to administer punishment ? To help my son take responsibility for his own actions I believe in letting him suffer the natural consequences. I don't have to punish him. If what he is doing is wrong I explain to him why. If he does it anyway then he will suffer the consequences. Naturally one must avoid them actually seriously hurting themselves, but I want my son to understand why, not to blindly obey because he fears retribution. The result is that he behaves well because he believes it is the right way to behave and develops self discipline. |
#26
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Kids should work !!!
Are we washing socks today?
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#27
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Kids should work !!!
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:22:21 -0800, Doan wrote: You do have to make the effort to be consistent and to actually listen to your child, but it works and its worth it. Sure kids will still *misbehave* some. After all they are learning and they are not going to be perfect either, but for the most part children who are listened to and disciplined positively act up much less than children who have been punished. For most part - not all. Every child is different. The be effective, you have to know the child. There is no one size fit all. Positive discipline is not one size. It is something you modify to fit the child and your family, but the *attitude* you take toward the child is that he is trying to be good and learning and you work with that. It is if you are trying to exclude others. Remember, if there is no negative then there is no positive. It is the balance of yin and yang and you can never exclude one from the other. Doan |
#28
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Kids should work !!!
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:24:04 -0800, Doan wrote: And for the real word, children should learn that society will reward them for good behaviors and PUNISH them for bad behaviors. It is just common-sense. They can learn that without being rewarded or punished by their parents. Do you really think that children are so stupid that they cannot see that society is punishment and reward oriented even if you don't use those techniques? The goals of parenting is to prepare children for the society that they live in. Do you think that parents WORLDWIDE are "so stupid" that they don't know what is best for their kids??? And why do you think that EVERY society is punishment/reward oriented? If punishmnet and reward don't work as you claimed, why do they existed in every cultures? Doan |
#29
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Kids should work !!!
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:30:24 -0800, Doan wrote: By the time kids get to juvenile halls they have already been punished by parents and others and it has not worked. So we certainly need to do something different. So why punish them more? Let's get rid of juvenile hall! Let's compare your alternatives under the same conditions and see what work best. It is not likely that society will choose this because it means they would have to provide real one on one counselling for each of these children and that costs money. And you think that locking them up is cheaper??? It would be more effective to teach the parents to use positive methods when the child is much younger. And it is much more effective too, if a child has parents who care about him and don't abuse him. Children learn what they live. If you treat a child with punishment and harsh discipline as a toddler, expect to have this returned 7 fold when he is a teenager. If this is true as you claimed why is the crime rate so in the 50's? Why is it so low in Singapore? You cannot make up for all the abuses that these kids have suffered by more punishment, but I see no hope that society will change and try other methods. If you can do away with them and provide the people to actually help these kids, then I would be perfectly happy to try it. We are not talking about abuse! We are talking about the discipline that normal people like you and I grew up with. I am a pragmatic person. You claimed that punishment/reward don't work, let's hear your alternatives. Doan |
#30
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Kids should work !!!
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:30:24 -0800, Doan wrote: If punishment worked to get people to be self-disciplined, we would not need police because they already would have learned right from wrong and would be doing what is right. But punishment doesn't work, and in fact it creates people whose ethical level is so low that they will do what they wish without regard to whether it is right or wrong. They will figure if they don't get caught, then doing the *crime* is fine. It's not a either/or dichotomy! It is about striking a balance and finding what work for each individual children. It is the overuse of reward and punishment that is bad. No, it's the entire concept that is bad. No proof of that! In fact, reality has shown that to be the most effective! It is human nature! When you use external rewards and punishments, you demotivate the child and make him dependent on the externals. Only if you overuse reward and punishment; when properly used, it is very effective. In fact, that is how our society function. For god's sake, saying yes and no are externals! I have recently been talking to an adult in another forum who exemplifies this very well. He does some good things, but only if someone else recognizes his good work. He doesn't have any inner sense that makes him feel good when he does something good, but has to be thanked and in proportion to what he thinks is due. By the same token, the only thing that keeps him from crimes is fear of punishment. So he has no inner compass that says that the crime itself is wrong, but he has enough fear of getting caught that he will not commit the crime. But he is just one individual! You can not use him to generalize. Most human are somewhere between the devil and a saint. This is the overall result of not teaching right and wrong in the first place and of relying on external discipline instead of helping children find a moral compass. Again, it is not a matter of relying external discipline; it is not a a either/or preposition. It is about striking a balance: 1) love, 2) positive to reward good behavior and 3) negative/punishment to reduce bad behavior. Doan |
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