Sibling rivalry

"Banty" wrote in message
If one is on a different tack from the others, the others can tend to
spread out
and crowd out the activities of the person. So, the older two can become
fixtures in the TV room, leaving no room for piano playing. I went
through this
in my home - one or more people hanging out watching TV was happening
nearly alllll the time, so just about *any* time I'd want to play piano
would be
bothering *someone*, so I'd be this evul meanie bothersome piano-playing
who-know-what - sooooo rude of me

Yep, sounds all to familar.

When I protested, proposing that a time be set aside for me to piano play,
of
course the counter-proposal was that I immediately go from getting home
from
school right to the piano bench, to practice intensively for about 15-20
minutes
until the next person got home, whereupon I would immediate cease and
desist so that the cherished TV watching can commence. Being - everyone
else gives up nada; I have no time to decompress before piano practice.
Bleachh. I never really got to play the piano for joy and started
composing (although lessons dropped away - I "didn't practice enough")
until my brother and sister both had gotten involved in activities that
took them out of the house more.

Yeah - this thread brings up feelings about our families of origin...

Your youngest needs some way to win. Have an understood time (a time
workable
for her) for her piano practice. And once in a while on weekends when she
just
wants to play piano - chase the fixturating TV-watchers and book readers
out of
the rec room. (The rest of the world can read a book while sometime plays
piano
anyway!) Maybe it's time to let the oldest to have a TV in her bedroom,
others
to join her sometimes, to relieve the some of the conflict.

I do shoo the other girls away so she can play, but it's not happening often
enough I guess. #3 is not a TV watcher, nor does she just like to sit. She
is a mover and a shaker and definitely needs more activities. I gotta work
on that.

There's another thing - when did you stop teaching your girls to use words
instead of hitting :-/

I don't know. | They don't get away with it of course. Whoever has done
the hitting is sent to their room, usually for the rest of the evening. #1
is the worst for hitting (and she is the oldest). There was a time when she
would be sent to her room for an entire day because she was physically
hurting #3. It's definitely not an every day occurance, but I think when
they get really frustrated and mad is when the physical stuff happens.

Do you, when stuff like this happens, break it up and send *everyone* to
their
rooms, no hassles over who-started-what-who-said-what-yadda-yadda??

I do, yes.

Break that
**** up. Make it so everyone loses when the hitting starts. And, no, you
wont
always or even usually be able to get to the bottom of each little
incident -
just, if there's hitting, eveyone loses. Period.

On the bedtime - just do it. Adults need to set that. The only meeting
you
should have should be with your husband.

Okay, that's fine. I was trying to be a democracy and let everyone have a
say.

Have the family meeting time about the piano playing.

There's this amazing little invention that has been around for awhile.
Known as
a doorlock.

I know, lol. I have those glass door knobs that supposed to use a skeleton
key, but of course there are no skeleton keys. I have been hounding hubby to
change the knobs with locks. I will hound him some more.

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

What do you do to ensure she stay out of their rooms?

She's at an age where physically preventing her from going in isn't
likely to be very helpful, it might solve part of the problem, but
without teaching the foundations of why she shouldn't be in their rooms,
it will result in frustration rather than repentance. Which then gives
you the starting point - it's to teach her why that is wrong, to me,
there are two things to teach, one is respecting privacy, so she has to
learn the basic concept of privacy and why we should respect each others
privacy and then you implement it by applying the same punishment you
would apply if she went in you purse. When it comes to taking their
things, then that's stealing - ok, so I know there are shades of gray,
borrowing a book to read, unasked is ok with most people, but you may
have to be black and white here until she shows she's capable of dealing
with it. Punishments for stealing are going to be of the severe kind,
grounding, removal of priviledges etc.

Cheers
Anne

Sue wrote:
[snip]
They can be physically mean by punching or hitting and/or they can say mean
and hurtful things. It could be prevented if we were all in the same room
together, but most of the time this happens when they are downstairs playing
on the computer or watching TV. Usually what happens, is that the older two
girls are occupied with something (computer, TV, reading) and #3 will come
down there will be nothing for her to do except start playing the piano or
annoying them. Then the older girls get mad because she is making too much
[snip]

I might have misunderstood this, but is the TV room in a basement? The
way you say "down there" implies it might be.

If it is, then the two older girls seem to be taking over the basement
*and* the upstairs, leaving only the middle floor for DD3 to do her stuff.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

Sue wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message

Okay, yesterday you said to make a list of undesirable behaviors and work on
them one at a time. I have picked keeping her out of her sisters' things and
rooms and taking things that don't belong to her. Now, what would be good
consequences for this? Hubby has suggested putting the door back up to the
stairs and putting a lock on it. Do you think we should do this? But
honestly, my main problem is coming up with consequences that will fit the
crime.

I think there are two sides to the issue. One is to prevent
the inappropriate behavior, and the other is to have appropriate
consequences when she chooses inappropriate behavior. She needs to
have the consequences if she misbehaves, but as long as you're
engaging constantly in that misbehavior-consequences-resentment-
misbehavior-consequences cycle, she *might* be learning that she
wants to avoid the inappropriate behavior, but she's not necessarily
learning the right behavior.
To keep her out of her sisters' stuff, the sisters have to
cooperate by keeping their stuff in their rooms so you've got a
fighting chance. Since both of their rooms are upstairs, all you
have to do is keep her downstairs (is there anything upstairs that
she requires access to?) unless she has her sisters' explicit
permission. I realize that can be challenging, depending on the
layout of your house. If you have to, put the door up and lock it
or alarm it. Or, require DD3 to be within sight of you all the
time until she's more trustworthy about staying out of her sisters'
stuff. If she's invited to her sisters' rooms, they have the right
to rescind the invitation. If she doesn't leave when they ask,
they can come get you and you go back them up and get DD3 out of
there. Make it worth her while to be nice to them so that she
can stay. Talk to her in advance about things she can do to make
her sisters want her around.
At this point, her sisters have something DD3 wants (access
to their rooms and time with them). Also ask yourself what DD3
has that DD1 and DD2 want. If nothing, that might be something to
think about as well. It might be perfectly normal (after all, they're
older and most kids are more likely to want what older kids have than
what younger kids have), but it might reflect a problematic situation
where DD3 doesn't really have any "upside potential" to strive for.

When she crosses certain boundaries with her sisters, perhaps you have to
immediately and clearly stop her from doing it.

I have tried to physically stop her, but she is a pretty solid kid and hard
for me to move around. I really don't know what to do to stop her.

Every kid has some kind of currency. Sometimes you have
to be very creative to find it, though. Sounds like perhaps DD3's
currency is attention. Maybe you try something like setting up
regular dates with you and her or with Dad and her. Plan a *lot*
of them, because in the beginning she'll probably lose most of them.
You can't have too much lead time. The lead time needs to be short
enough that the prize is within realistic reach if she really wants
it. You can gradually lengthen the lead time as she gets better at
it.

What I tell my boys (who are much older than their
sister) is that I will defend their rooms from her. If they
keep their stuff in their rooms, I will ensure that she doesn't
go in there and mess with their stuff. If they don't put their
stuff away, it's fair game. I can't watch her every single second
and make sure she doesn't touch a thousand and one things they've
left all over the house, but I can make sure she stays out of
those two rooms.

What do you do to ensure she stay out of their rooms?

I make sure I know exactly where she is in the house.
If she's being really ornery, or if there are things I absolutely
have to get done that would preclude me from keeping a close
enough eye on her, I keep her within sight. She hates that,
but even at 4 years old, at some level she understands that if
she breaks the rules, she ends up on a very short leash. She
is extraordinarily headstrong, so I can't afford to let her
run amok at all, even though it's sometimes exhausting. When
all else fails and I'm pulling my hair out, I'll either put her
in the tub for a bath, take her to cuddle in bed and read a
book or watch a show, or take her outside for a bit. Obviously,
those probably aren't great strategies for an 11yo ;-) But
there's probably something that will occupy her well when you're
just too beat to play the cat and mouse game any longer. You have
to be careful not to set it up so that it appears to be a reward
for wearing you out.

I think it sounds good and I will try this. I do think that #3 needs more
structure and routine.

My #3 also needs a lot more structure than is naturally
my wont. I hate having my day programmed, but it really helps
my DD. We kind of go back and forth. On school days, that takes
some of the edge off for her. I can be less structured on a school
day than a day when she's home all day. She also absolutely has
to have some time outside and some physical activity. Otherwise
she's bouncing off the walls and driving me insane.

I spent a fair amount of time today looking for some
extra activities she can do and I found a girls empowered class called the
ABCs of social skills and it sounds like this could be a good class for her.

Good luck with that! There's another book that one of
my kids enjoyed that was along those lines. It was called
something like _Bringing Up Parents_. It wasn't about peer-to-peer
relationships, but was about the parent child relationship. It's
written in an amusing way, as if it's somehow secret knowledge on
how to manipulate your parents (which it is, in a way ;-) ), but
it's really about how to see things from your parents' perspective
so that you can do what you need to do to get what you want.
Anyway, it may be one of those things that only works for kids
who aren't very challenged in that area anyway, but it might be
worth a try.

She plays soccer, which the season will start next month and she takes piano
lessons. She was in scouts, but she didn't like it claiming everyone was
mean to her (which is a common theme with her). I do think she needs to have
more physical activity than she is getting.

Hopefully soccer season will help with the physical
activity.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article ,
"Sue" wrote:

I feel she is definitely less mature for her age. We do have a school
counsellor. I could ask if there is anything they could do.

It's not so much what they can *do* as what they can *measure*. There are
ways to assess social behaviour to see if it's normal or not.

How are the arguments settled? Why is it worth her while to argue? What
is she getting out of it?

I am not sure. She doesn't get out of the chores, but she argues and
tantrums everyday about doing them. I usually send her to her room until she
can control herself and then she still has to do the chores.

You need to figure out that reason. If it's happening every day, there is
some payoff that she's getting. Could be that she enjoys being a drama queen,
or she's getting some one-to-one attention. DH might have an idea.

Why her room, incidentally? In my house, it's the loo. Nothing exciting to
do in there! DS1 would just read or play with toys if he went to his room.

Usually what happens, is that the older two
girls are occupied with something (computer, TV, reading) and #3 will come
down there will be nothing for her to do except start playing the piano or
annoying them. Then the older girls get mad because she is making too much
noise when they are in the middle of a show or something. #3 will get mad
and then sometimes the girls will get physical and then #3 comes up crying
because she got hurt.

I wouldn't be terribly sympathetic if she's the annoyer and other people are
following harmless pursuits! Though I would probably set up some kind of
family games night/screen-free time so that you don't have a household of
hermits. And can't you move either the TV or piano? It's a recipe for
disaster to have them both down there.

Your older two girls are getting away with disobeying your bedtime rules.
Part of their disobedience means that they are keeping #3 awake
downstairs. How are you planning to deal with that?

I am not sure yet. Staggering bedtimes seems to be the consensus. I would
like to have a family meeting and discuss possible solutions to this.

The fact is that the older ones are being disobedient to you and also
inconsiderate of their sister. Don't let it slide.

Do you know what they find difficult?

Not yet, but someone suggested that they be able to write down to me what is
annoying them and see if I can fix it. This will be my plan of action next.

Good plan.

There might be a bit too much talking about the Golden Rule and not enough
*pointing out of practical examples* with #3. She is having trouble
understanding what "being nice" means, I think.

You are probably right about that. What kind of examples could I give her?

Er, whatever comes up? One of your problems might be vague language -- I see
only "nice" and "mean" in your posts. What about helpful, considerate,
gentle, calm, kind, respectful, polite, patient, self-controlled? Frustrated,
annoyed, annoying, irritated, violent, snappy, rude, abrupt, weepy,
hysterical, distracting? Precision might be very important, especially if the
girls (and they're all basically pubescent) are still sorting through their
emotions. Give a feeling a name and you start to understand it.

DS2 (in my lap) just asked for his teddy. DS1 picked it up and gave it to
him. I thanked him for being kind.

You will have to enforce with #3 that she is not allowed another person's
bedrooms without an express invitation (and ditto for her room, of course,
and your own bedroom as well). The punishments for infringements should
hurt; the girls are all entitled to their own space, their own friendships,

and for their own things to be left undisturbed. I would guess that this
is a good part of their dislike of #3 -- but you should ask them. Would
she be doing something like reading their diaries, for example?

I don't know how to stop #3 from staying out of their rooms. This is what I
need help with.

(I assume you mean "going into" rather than "staying out"!)

First thing is -- what precisely do you mean?

Does #3 not accept her sisters' authority over their own rooms? Is this
because you haven't enforced their rights up till now? (In which case, you
can't really blame the elder girls for walloping her...)

Does #3 not do what YOU say? That's a different matter.

Or do you mean that you can't think of a good punishment for this?

Or that you don't know how to start up a rule that your household has never
had?

As to methods:

One method would involve keys and locks. The problem is that you don't really
want adolescent girls locking themselves in their rooms, either!

The other alternative is to have serious and painful punishments lined up for
#3 when she next goes into a bedroom without permission, takes something
without permission, or refuses to leave when requested. But you might need
some lead time before enforcement, if knocking on doors is a new thing.

Are you expecting #3 to occupy herself a LOT of the time? Too much time?

Probably. She isn't very good at it and she seems to need a lot of people
time. She doesn't like to be alone, which is different from the rest of us.
The rest of us seem to like to be alone more than she does.

An activity to take her out of the house for an evening so the other two can
have some peace?

As the elder of two girls, naturally I believe your older girls are being
driven to distraction by an overindulged brat. Bitter? Me, bitter?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

On Fri, 07 Mar 2008 19:09:27 +1100, Chookie wrote:

In article ,
"Sue" wrote:

I feel she is definitely less mature for her age. We do have a school
counsellor. I could ask if there is anything they could do.

It's not so much what they can *do* as what they can *measure*. There are
ways to assess social behaviour to see if it's normal or not.

How are the arguments settled? Why is it worth her while to argue? What
is she getting out of it?

I am not sure. She doesn't get out of the chores, but she argues and
tantrums everyday about doing them. I usually send her to her room until she
can control herself and then she still has to do the chores.

You need to figure out that reason. If it's happening every day, there is
some payoff that she's getting. Could be that she enjoys being a drama queen,
or she's getting some one-to-one attention. DH might have an idea.

Why her room, incidentally? In my house, it's the loo. Nothing exciting to
do in there! DS1 would just read or play with toys if he went to his room.

Not OP here, but I personally like sending my kids to the bedroom for
tantrums because it's less of a punishment and more of just time for them
to calm down. It doesn't bother me if they start playing there.

If it's punishment I'm after, I make DS write sentences. I once made him
write me a paper about why it wasn't right to throw a tantrum in the store
and it ended up being a paper about how he felt justified because his
sister was making him so angry he had to hit her. That was very cute,
since he was only 5yo at the time.

To the OP, maybe get the girls to write papers when they are fighting and
upset. How about asking them to write one page about why they are upset or
solutions they can think of to their problems? By the time they're done,
they should be less upset and maybe thinking more clearly about how they
can get along better. DS definitely felt better after he wrote me his
paper. I'm thinking maybe I can do more of that when both of them are
older.

In article , Banty
wrote:

Someone here had an interesting idea about, whatever she takes from her
sister's
rooms, said sister gets to pick something from *her* room to be impounded (or
something like that). Might work but I'd caution; whenever I've dallied with
such an approach it gets even more resentments as whatever is done as
'payback' is always viewed as 'not the same thing' or 'out of line' or
whatever. Or 'you
did that on purpose but I didn't do what I did on purpose'. Paybacks, while
tempting, don't work IME - too many varying perceptions about it.

I think it would be have to be watched over by the parents very carefully to
prevent. I was thinking of t-shirt for t-shirt type stuff, not a smashed
ornament for a smashed ornament.

If someone "borrows" a t-shirt without permission, the impounded t-shirt would
go into the laundry with the worn one, and only reappear when the first one
does.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

In article ,
"Sue" wrote:

On the bedtime - just do it. Adults need to set that. The only meeting
you should have should be with your husband.

Okay, that's fine. I was trying to be a democracy and let everyone have a
say.

A family isn't a democracy; it's a (meritocratic?) oligarchy. Parents, in
theory, have the superior experience and judgement for them to be responsible
for the decisions. Give kids a say in things they need to have a say in or to
learn from. Don't give them a say in matters that are too much for them or in
which they aren't likely to be productive.

But it might be a good idea to talk to each child separately about the
difficulties in the family life atm and see how they are feeling and what
ideas they have. I don't think family meetings are great if they only occur
in crises. Perhaps breakfast 'out'?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

"Sue" wrote in message
news:kcSdnao52aZAK1DanZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
My family has a situation that we need help with. We have three girls 15,
12, and 11. DD2 and DD3 have never gotten along and pretty much DD2 cannot
stand DD3. DD3 is a typical 11 year-old in that she is the annoying little
sister. DD3 does have issues though, she is loud, not too clued in
socially, and has anxiety and lots of fears. We have been to therapists
and I have talked about her before on this list. She is very argumentative
and doesn't do chores when asked. DD1 and DD2 have become much closer over
the years because they have more in common. It seems it is now the oldest
two against the rest of the household. However, the problem we are having
is that how can we stop the hatred dd2 has for dd3. DD1 is kind of
neutral, but she will gang up on DD3 and will be mean also. For right now,
we have 4 bedrooms, 2 up and 2 down. Hubby and I share one small room
down, and DD3 has the other small bedroom downstairs. The two older girls
have the two larger rooms upstairs. It has been a bone of contention with
DD3 because she feels even more left out and the two older girls pretty
much exclude her in all activities and they hole up upstairs and will not
let DD3 come up to be with them. Bedtime is especially hard because DD1
and DD2 will stay up (even though we tell them to go to bed) and will talk
and laugh. DD3 thinks this is horribly unfair and wants to be moved up
there with them. No one wants to share a room with DD3. We thought of
moving DD1 down to our room and hubby and I move upstairs, but I really
don't want to do this because of I am uncomfortable with having the kids
downstairs and me upstairs.
I just don't know what to do anymore. They fight constantly and it truly
is putting a strain on hubby and I. How much should hubby and I be in
their fights? We intervene if they hurt each other, but when DD3 cries
because her feelings are hurt once again by being left out, what should I
do? I just cannot stand all the hatred this family seems to have. Thanks
for any input anyone can give me.

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

Sue, I have two girls- 13 and almost 11- and some of what you've written
sounds familiar even though mine do like each other. I found that around
twelve was something of a watershed in sibling relationships, as the elder
suddenly wasn't interested in many of the younger one's games any more, and
also wanted to be alone a lot mo younger sister feeling
rejected and lonely, and hasseling elder sister for attention (she's the
loud and persistant kind too); elder sister getting annoyed and loosing
her temper over trivial stuff... things were getting a little tense.

What worked for us was giving the older one a chance of having her space by
keeping the younger one busy as much as possible; mostly by inviting her
friends over as often as I could manage, even just for an hour after school.
I'd also divert her if she was pestering her sister, and I had her in a
couple of sports; it all helped, but I'd say the friends were the critical
factor.
They were needed as my daughter didn't want to go and play by herself, or
rather, she was unhappy about having to do so all the time because her
sister wouldn't play any more, and that was building up resentment as she
didn't get to do the things she was interested in in the way she enjoyed,
and no amount of after-school activities could replace that. Having another
child over gave the younger one company for the things she wanted to do
(somehow, teenagers don't want to spend an hour in the garden pretending to
be a horse ... and I don't either), and more peace for the elder. End
result, the elder became more tolerant and the younger more willing to share
things both are interested in (they'd spend hours together inventing
families for the Sims, if we'd let them), which has broken the
rejection-hassling cycle.

I know you said somewere DD3 didn't do very well with sleepovers, but how is
she for short visits? It seemed to me that frequency was more important
than length; for instance, I'd have a friend over for lunch a couple of
times a week (kids come home for lunch on schooldays here, they'd have about
45 minutes to play before going back), she'd be invited for lunch another
day, and we'd have someone over after school for an hour or two and drop
them of f home on the way to swimming lessons later. Long visits or
sleepovers would be at most once a week, when we were being very sociable
more normally, about once a fortnight I'd say.


Good luck with this, even the mild version was quite unpleasant enough for
me!

Jo

Just had to jump in here... As I explained in another post, I've been
dealing with something slightly similar- though much milder and easier to
resolve. I agree about needing to change the family dynamic, but my gut
feeling is that switching rooms now is likely to make things worse.

Well, I could be convinced that switching might be worse if DD2 is very
aggrieved by it, but something has to give.

As far
evening out the dynamics goes, you'd have to move DD1, as both the others
want her, but then you'd have to put up with the fights upstairs again.
Just
moving DD3 upstairs in any form of doubling up simply gives her more
opportunity to annoy the elder two and be rejected more often,
particularly
as it sounds as if they're already getting rather too much of her.

I dont' think any of these arrangements would work (why I don't think
anyone has
suggested them). I guess you're being comprehensive and going through the
options

Well, I was being comprehensive but someone did suggest putting all the
girls upstairs, can't remember who in this very long thread... And I felt
that removing DD1 was worth mentionning as the only balanced option between
both younger sisters- even if that's through being equally unpopular with
both, and ruled out in the interest of sanity. I guess actually your option
is what I'd go with if I were moving house or something, but it just feels
too risky in the situation as given.


I can't
image any way of switching DD2 and DD3 that won't make DD2 badly
resentful-
the pesky little sister she already dislikes has managed to make enough
fuss
to take over her room and replace her in the bedtime chats.

Ah but that's the other thing - *no* *more* *bedtime* *chats*. Like I
said
when I originally suggested this, the bedtimes get enforced too. The
switch
helping with that, as there isn't a set habit to break of one girl going
to the
other's room, or talking through the doors, or whatever they do. Harder
to
carry on that stuff between floors.


Quite true, but this is the younger one's reason for going back upstairs;
she's going to want to carry on the tradition, regardless, and it might not
be easy to stop her in a way that's convincing to DD2. Besides, going by
Sue's description, it sounds as if DD2 might be easier to stop than DD3 .
What time do they go to bed, anyway? Is it feasible for DD1 to go to bed a
good bit later, like an hour or so?

Not the best
start for improving their relationship. Myself, I'd leave the rooms as
they
are, and find more neutral options for including DD3.

You do need to change the bedtime situation as percieved by DD3, with the
elder two have a roaring good time upstairs without her; I'd go for
staggered bedtimes myself, DD1 is a good bit older than the others, so why
should she be held to a 12-year old bedtime just because DD2 wants
company?
I mean, if DD2 were an only, you wouldn't be going to bed at her bedtime
just to reassure her, you'd find other ways to deal with the fear. And the
issue of 15-year-old priviledge can't be blamed on DD3, so you're not
adding
in more resentment, unlike "you have to stop talking because DD3 is
jealous".

Which is part of the reason why changing the physical arrangement too
helps.

Given the habit (and remembering my sibs, although I only have one kid),
even if
you spread the bedtimes better, the younger will stay awake or wake up.
Then
they'd carry on. Unless kid #2 is a heavy sleeper (is she?)

But no doubt some serious boundary-enforcing has to go on here in several
ways.
Physical separations help establish that. And whatever the arrangement
the
bedroom-raiding by #3 has to stop. As in yesterday.


Most definitly. My teen would be ready to commit murder by now with this
sort of invasion. Privacy really counts at this age, it doesn't matter if
their personnal space is a bedroom or a shelf, little sisters have no
business in there!

Jo

Sue - what exactly is it that #3 thinks should be changed as far as her
sisters'
behavior? Is it just self-centeredness on #3's part? Or is there
something to
what she says?

Banty

Banty