reputable homebirth info/stats needed

Thanks girls I feel sooo much better. Just off to share the news
with my Mum. (Nice day today wasn't it. About time the weather picked up a
bit)

Best wishes
Pip

"Unadulterated Me" wrote in message
...
Daye wrote:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:41:09 +1300, Unadulterated Me
wrote:


The first country to give women the right to vote


Aussies claim that too. I wonder if this part of the NZ = part of
Australia thing?


Woman received the right to vote September 19, 1893. Australia gave woman
the right to be elected to Parliament first...although we were the first
to have a woman Prime Minister, we are on our second in fact ;-P


I keep telling my family that if the US keeps getting more wacko, we should
move to New Zealand. It's always seemed like a much saner place.

Jenrose

Or join the Cbirth list
and listen to the woman there whose choice for safe midwifery attended
homebirth is so scarcely available they are forced to birth unattended
by default.


They are also choosing who attends their birth...there are always
options. You could go out of your current state...you could move...

most people in this country who birth unattended do so
intentionally...
yet another legal choice in this country.

True choice only occurs when woman have full access to a range of
services, and are fully informed in order to make the right choice for
them.

I disagree.
it is also a woman's right in this country to choose to remain
ignorant and to abdicate all decision making to someone else...even if
that someone else is a doctor or midwife. To remain ignorant and hand
over decision making to a doctor....that, too, is her right to choose.

As far as I can see neither of these things happen in the US

REALLY?? Yegads...what have I been doing for the last 9 years??
That's right...teaching childbirth classes, educating women, helping
them birth whereever and with whoever they choose, helping them and
their families through the birthing process....

I find it slightly offensive when people pass sweeping
judgements...especially if they don't live here. The unites states
(or, as you called it, the almighty US) is so large and diverse....I
dare you to make one accurate sweeping statement....(and the above
statement is definately not accurate)

due
to the lack of easily obtainable and legal midwifery services,

Over 70 licensed and legal midwives in my state alone...and I don't
life in one of the higher populated states...

or
practitioners who provide correct and balanced information due to the
medical models in which they practice and the fear of litigation.


Then you should learn more about our diverse country before you toss
your stone...



I live in a relatively liberal area with lots of birthing options, in the
US, and I agree with Andrea wholeheartedly. I gave up childbirth education
and doula work because it felt like banging my head into a brick wall of
misinformation. Bang one too many times and a smart person will realize when
their efforts are better spent elsewhere.

I don't think you're wrong in that I do believe that women have a
choice....but it's a limited choice when insurance doesn't cover midwifery
care half the time, doesn't cover homebirth most of the time, and people can
end up having social services called in and court action brought if they
make an "informed choice" which goes against whatever the medical staff
think is "best". Free? I'd rather pay taxes and see an equitable
distribution of medical care than this damned hodgepodge we have now. Every
year I pay more for insurance, every year I get less in the way of insurance
benefits, and we've now gone two years without dental visits because we have
no coverage, no money for the dentist, and we're not low enough income for
"free" care. We floss and brush a lot.

Why is it that I know people who pay next to nothing for healthcare and have
excellent coverage that goes for everything from infertility treatments to
cosmetic surgery, and I know people who have no insurance at all, people who
pay $1000 per month for family coverage, etc. We pay about $5,000 per year
just in premiums, and *still* have huge copays and deductibles which mean
our medical expenses this year may top at $10,000 and that's WITHOUT doing
an assisted pregnancy. That's just normal routine stuff, plus one ER visit
and a couple doctor visits, plus prescriptions. Why is it that one procedure
done badly at a hospital costs $600, and the same procedure done well in a
private office costs $140? Why is it that if my doctor bills me directly, I
end up having to pay the whole bill no matter what, but when they bill the
insurance company, they'll automatically write off 25% or more of the bill?
Yet if I try to negotiate, they use the excuse that they can't charge me
less than the insurance company, even though they're really charging me
much, much more.

And when I was on medicaid, it would pay for expensive asthma drugs, but not
allergy drugs which would eliminate the need for the asthma drugs. Would pay
for antibioitics, but not antifungals. When budget cuts came through, one of
the first things to do were the drugs keeping people sane enough to work...

Our system is *****ed*.

Jenrose

Or join the Cbirth list
and listen to the woman there whose choice for safe midwifery attended
homebirth is so scarcely available they are forced to birth unattended
by default.


They are also choosing who attends their birth...there are always
options. You could go out of your current state...you could move...

most people in this country who birth unattended do so
intentionally...
yet another legal choice in this country.


You know what? If I were living somewhere where I thought my birthing
options would be truly respected, and trusted the medical profession to
*fully* respect my right to make informed choices about interventions and
care, I might actually contemplate a hospital or birth center birth. I
thought I had that with my daughter's birth, but no, I was treated like ****
in the hospital, got what I wanted only by confrontation even though I tried
very hard to do it by cooperation, and *still* ended up traumatized by the
damn thing. And I was NOT handing over my power to anyone. I was a strong,
educated, informed, supported woman, and the medical staff were ****Y. They
treated me like a goddamned number. That was 11 1/2 years ago, and it's only
gotten worse. Now, I have to worry about things like the fact that a woman
in my community had medical personel take her to court to require her not to
breastfeed her baby and to give her baby drugs she felt inappropriate. I
have to worry about hospitals going to court to order women to get
c-sections. With my risk status, I'd be insane to put myself in a position
of letting a doc have that much power over me.

Even here in my "enlightened" community, informed consent is a joke. "Safe
enough" is the standard, and they're comfortable telling a woman an epidural
or intrathecal is "safe" without *any* discussion of risk, even though I've
personally seen two cases where the baby's heartrate crashed immediately
post inthrathecal.

When I went in to rule out an ectopic, was cramping and bleeding, the first
two things they wanted to do were a pelvic and a catheter. What, they wanted
to make me cramp more? Both were totally unnecessary and I refused them. I
was told that the decision was not up to me, regarding the catheter, but up
to the ultrasound personnel. Fortunately the ultrasound tech agreed with me,
so I didn't have to kick anyone to keep them from catheterizing me, but
geez... (In fact, she asked me to go release some urine so that they could
actually see my uterus, the bladder was so full.)

What I hear about informed consent in some other countries makes me think
I'd be a hell of a lot more comfortable working with those doctors than I am
with our current crop. And they wonder why malpractice suits happen so
often--I've been a victim of medical malpractice twice in my life, didn't
sue either time, but surely could have.
Jenrose

In ,
Mum of Two wrote:

*of. To name a few differences off the top of my head:
**Circumcision - far from routine here in NZ, in fact would be hard to find a
*Dr. to do it.

Whereas here in my area of the USA, they ask you "do you want the baby
circumcised in the hospital, yes or no," and if you say "no," that's the
end of it. None of this "THEY STOLE MY BABY AND GAVE HIM BACK WITH NO
FORESKIN OMG OMG OMG" crap goes on in my area!

**Rooming in - Those big nurseries full of babies are one of those weird
*Americanisms they show on the movies.

Rooming in is the default at the hospital where I deliver, FWIW. They do
have the big nursery but it is apparently almost always populated by zero
to two infants and a bunch of empty bassinetts.

h.
--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

In ,
Unadulterated Me wrote:

*Your the one living in the country that still has routine circ,
*
*
* Umm....
* and...? Because many parents make a choice you obviously disagree
* with....? what's your point?
*
*My point is it's an outdated routine practice. If informed parents in

My definition of "routine practice" is one that is done unless or until
someone specifically issues an order against it. Circumcision at the
several area hospitals where I visited prior to my first delivery is NOT
routine. They ask "do you want your baby boy circumcised? Yes or no" and
if "yes," the followup is "will you want it done in the hospital, yes or
no?" There is no automatic circumcision routine here. Perhaps in other
areas of the US there is, but I wouldn't know about that. My son was not
circumcised in the hospital.

h.

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

"Mum of Two" wrote in message
*Rooming in - Those big nurseries full of babies are one of those weird
Americanisms they show on the movies.

ROTFL.

Hmm, I had three babies and none of them went to the nursery. It was
expected to keep your baby with you and that was 12 years ago. And just to
let you know, what you see on the movies is not what truly happens in real
life. I think it's funny how people in other countries truly believe what
they see from the movies. You have some ill conceived ideas about what it is
really like here in the US. The sweeping generalizations are not correct for
everywhere here in the US. It differs from state to state, county to county
and city to city. Here where I live, every mom that I have spoke to has been
happy with their births. Some wanted all of the interventions and they got
them. Some wanted no interventions (like myself) and got that too. Jenrose
is having a homebirth and she is here in the US and she is getting that.
Larry's kids are born at home too and gee he lives here in the US too. Many
people don't get vaccinations and some are able to delay. All those things
on your list are choices that can be made. I wouldn't want to live somewhere
where the govn. made me feel that I didn't have a say in my care. You cannot
make sweeping statements by the few unhappy people that are on this
newsgroup. And what is represented on this ng is not how RL works. I do
think the US falls down on lots of things, but the thing is I still believe
that there is a choice to what you want to do. Many people are asked if they
want certain things done and if they say no (like ci$c, antibiotics in the
eyes and so on) then *most* doctors will abide by their wishes. I know lots
don't, but I think things are changing and that's the reason why we are
seeing so many homebirths here in the US and why midwives are getting so
popular. I do think that people like Jenrose feels like she is banging her
head against the wall is because women are not making the same decisions she
is. And I think the reason Stephanie doesn't feel the same way is because
she is listening to what the women want and helping them get it even if they
want all of the interventions. So I know this is a hot topic, much like
religion or politics and everyone isn't going to agree, so name calling and
calling one country better than the other is useless and I'm not going to
participate in that. My whole point is that women have a choice and for the
most part, those choices are adhered to, but yes sometimes they are not, but
those are the ones that you are hearing about.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

Jenrose wrote:
"Unadulterated Me" wrote in message
...

Daye wrote:


On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:41:09 +1300, Unadulterated Me
wrote:



The first country to give women the right to vote


Aussies claim that too. I wonder if this part of the NZ = part of
Australia thing?


Woman received the right to vote September 19, 1893. Australia gave woman
the right to be elected to Parliament first...although we were the first
to have a woman Prime Minister, we are on our second in fact ;-P



I keep telling my family that if the US keeps getting more wacko, we should
move to New Zealand. It's always seemed like a much saner place.

Jenrose


Yes, but you'd have to get used to that 'iccent'

*ducks and hides*

Jo(RM)

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:01:02 -0500, "Sue"
wrote:
Hmm, I had three babies and none of them went to the nursery. It was
expected to keep your baby with you and that was 12 years ago. And just to
let you know, what you see on the movies is not what truly happens in real
life. I think it's funny how people in other countries truly believe what
they see from the movies. You have some ill conceived ideas about what it is
really like here in the US. The sweeping generalizations are not correct for
everywhere here in the US. It differs from state to state, county to county
and city to city. Here where I live, every mom that I have spoke to has been
happy with their births. Some wanted all of the interventions and they got
them. Some wanted no interventions (like myself) and got that too. Jenrose
is having a homebirth and she is here in the US and she is getting that.
Larry's kids are born at home too and gee he lives here in the US too. Many
people don't get vaccinations and some are able to delay. All those things
on your list are choices that can be made. I wouldn't want to live somewhere
where the govn. made me feel that I didn't have a say in my care.

Sue, have you any idea what happens to most people when they refuse
procedures on their newborns? Refuse Eye drops, vitamin K, vaccines?
Have unassisted homebirths, or have half-midwife/half-self prenatal
care? They are called ignorant by the child's pediatrician, threatened
with CPS, lied to and told their baby is dying as a way to get these
things done that the ped. believes should be done. My baby was NOT
dying, nothing was wrong with her at all. But by the time the blood
cultures came back all the stuff I felt was wrong for her was done,
she went through all that f'ing pain for nothing besides the fear that
cps was going to take her away (because yes the ped. called them too,
and after it was all over THEN they interviewed us and dropped the
case) You have no idea what goes on, b/c the people it happens to feel
so humiliated and outraged and the "do what I'm told, everything turns
out fine" people will not understand so it's not talked about. I
rarely talk about it, I don't look at pictures from the hospital.
Parents ARE made to feel as if they don't have a say in their
children's care, whether you think so or not. It happens all the time.
Marie

"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
In ,
Mum of Two wrote:

*of. To name a few differences off the top of my head:
**Circumcision - far from routine here in NZ, in fact would be hard to
find a
*Dr. to do it.

Whereas here in my area of the USA, they ask you "do you want the baby
circumcised in the hospital, yes or no," and if you say "no," that's the
end of it. None of this "THEY STOLE MY BABY AND GAVE HIM BACK WITH NO
FORESKIN OMG OMG OMG" crap goes on in my area!

**Rooming in - Those big nurseries full of babies are one of those weird
*Americanisms they show on the movies.

Rooming in is the default at the hospital where I deliver, FWIW. They do
have the big nursery but it is apparently almost always populated by zero
to two infants and a bunch of empty bassinetts.

I guess I'm lucky-my hospital is much more like Hillary's describing-and, in
fact, when I was admitted recently, the checklist of questions covered about
95% of my birth plan-with the guide from the hospital stating things like
"Unless you are at high risk for a C-section delivery, you are encouraged to
eat during labor" and "intermittent monitoring will be used unless there are
signs of possible distress so you will be free to get up and move around"
and "if you intend to breastfeed or are uncertain, your baby will not be
given a bottle if supplemental feeding is necessary. Feeding will be done
via a syringe or finger feeder." answered most of the rest. While I don't
get to have a low-intervention birth, everything I've seen and heard so far
indicates that it is the norm in this hospital, as opposed to the exception.


h.
--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx