looking for other perspectives (very long)

I will start this by apologizing for the length. I want to be sure to
give all relevant information from the start, and to do that I must
cover a couple of years worth of information.

I've Google'd and found only a handful of threads that are close
enough in circumstance to apply. I've tried to pick through the
others and go from there. But now I feel I must ask for your opinions
and perspectives.

2 years ago a man that worked for a contractor for my (then) employer
began striking up conversations with me. We have more than a few
things in common so we had things to talk about. After about a month
of talking and meeting for the occasional beer, he asked me if I
wanted to go to to a function out of town (over-night). He made it
clear that I could get another room or save the money and stay in his.
He was very polite and respectful, and he made a point to make sure
that his room had 2 double beds. I went; we had a wonderful day
together; we slept in the same bed that night, and that's how the
whole mess began.

You see, he is married and has been for almost 17 years now. I had my
suspicions about it so I cannot and will not act as if I am in any way
innocent here because I am not. I am fully aware of my own
culpability in this situation.

Immediately following that weekend, I asked him if he was married. He
told me that he was, implied that he wasn't fully satisfied but gave
no details, and said that he would "never leave his children".

I know that I should have broken it off with him then, but I didn't.
I have a long history of some pretty sad mistakes with respect to men
and love. All of which I attribute to childhood issues with my father
(about which I am currently seeing a counselor). I am not making
excuses ... I made the choices, and I own up to all of them ... just
giving background information. Immediately prior to this man I had
spent about 3 years choosing to remain single and not venturing into
the realm of dating because I knew that I had my own issues to sort
through before I could build a successful relationship.

Anyway, I appreciated the (seemingly) honest communciation and
respected that he valued his children so. We had made a very intense
connection and the sex was amazing ... again not making excuses, just
information ... so I agreed to continue the relationship.

That same conversation included another topic, birth control (I had
given him a condom but didn't make him use it). He told me that he
didn't know whether or not he could father children ... that his son
and daughter (now ages 10 & 8 1/2) are adopted. I told him my own
history of infertility. I spent approxiamately 5 sexually-active
years of making no attempts to prevent pregnancy and just 1 year
before had undergone 3 cycles of infertility treatment (artifical
insemination with donor sperm). I had never gotten pregnant so I
didn't think (and had begun the painful process of acceptance) that I
could have children either. We talked about it and decided that if a
child was meant to be concieved, it would be.

Two weeks later, two things happened. Our daughter was conceived and
we each told the other that we were falling in love.

Now, if not for my daughter I would not be looking for answers. I
would have tired (in no particular order) of being number 2, of having
only part of a relationship, of not being able to depend on him to "be
there" for me, of risking being the cause of so much pain to innocent
people. I would have broken it off within a month or two ... great
sex or no.

But every decision that I've made since then has been at least
partially based on what I feel is best for my child, and me removing
her father from her life is not, at this point in time IMHO, what is
best for her.

She is now 16 months old. He has seen her fairly regularly since her
birth and says that he loves her and wants what's best for her. He
told his wife about her (and a modified version of our history) 3
months ago. He has subsequently told his children and some members of
his extended family.

His wife is having difficulty (and quite understandably so) having my
child in her life even for an hour or two out of a week. I'm not sure
exactly what is happening ... whether she is asking or even demanding
that he not see our daughter or maybe he's just trying to lessen her
pain ... but he went a month without seeing our child. He didn't even
ask about her when we talked for 2 or 3 of those weeks. He finally
told me that he was trying to decide if our daughter would be better
off without him in her life.

He says that he does not want to walk away from her, but he also says
that he can't love her and not love me ... that we are a package. I
think that I can have a co-parent-only relationship with him. He has
consistantly chosen to do what he needs to do for his marriage and his
children, and I can accept that because I love him and will support
what he wants and needs to do regardless of whether it jives with what
I want for myself.

The problem is this: He continues to tell me that he loves me. He
tells me that he daydreams about us being together to do all the
things that we both enjoy so much (and, no, it's not just sex). I am
unable to let go of the hope of being together under these
circumstances and have told him so many times.

They are currently seeing a counselor, and he's made the comment that
they, at least, need to stay together until their kids graduate from
high school.

My parents did that, and as the youngest I can say it was no favor to
me. I told him that. I really try not to pressure him in any way,
and I have never asked him to or told him he should leave his
marriage. I only express my feelings (I believe that I truly love
him and that he's an important part of our child's life) and tell him
my opinions and experiences.

I am prepared to walk away from him (and take our child with me) if
I/we/he decide(s) that's what's best for everyone. Of course, my
child's needs are first and foremost in my mind, but I have to
consider his family's needs as well. Their children are just as
innocent as mine. And I believe that their marriage comes before my
relationship with him ... but also feel that, while we do not know
what an "everyday life" relationship is like, the love that he and I
feel for one another is real.

I'm so confused and conflicted. I like to have all the information
and lots of different perspectives before making major decisions that
affect so many people.

So here I am, asking you for your thoughts and wisdom. I know that
some (if not all) of you will disapprove of the choices that I've made
and that you may even judge and attack me. I hope, though, that you
will see that I am just a person who's made some mistakes but is
trying to do the best she can with what she's got.

Again, I apologize for the length. I just wanted to try to prevent
any misunderstandings, and unless based on a decent body of
information, assumptions are dangerous things.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


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In article ,
Paula wrote:

I will start this by apologizing for the length. I want to be sure to
give all relevant information from the start, and to do that I must
cover a couple of years worth of information.

snipped for bandwidth

Again, I apologize for the length. I just wanted to try to prevent
any misunderstandings, and unless based on a decent body of
information, assumptions are dangerous things.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


Three things:

1 - If he DOES leave his wife and marry you, you will be married to
someone who you know is willing to commit (and condone) infidelity. Is
that something you really want?

2 - The model you are giving your daughter is that adultery is OK if you
are "in love". Think hard about the morals you want your daughter to
adopt -- she will NOT learn from what you say, she will learn from your
behavior.

3 - What will your daughter's relationship with her half-siblings be
like once they realize that SHE is the cause of their parent's divorce?
(And even if that isn't completely true, they will believe it IS true --
you will be the REALLY evil step mother.)


Unless you AND HE AND HIS WIFE are willing to condone polyamory as a
moral choice -- and I'm guessing his wife would say she is not -- in the
long run you are hurting your daughter more than helping her. If you
ALL are willing to live a polyamorous life, then I suggest you look into
it (it only works when ALL parties support it) and move on from there.
He gets both you and his wife, and your relationship with him and his
with you and his daughter come out of the closet.

Under ALL other circumstances, I suggest you immediately stop seeing him
in any way other than as a co-parent; that one, you and he are stuck
with.

I know you love him -- I understand how painful this will be -- but for
the sake of your daughter and his other children, you simply must force
your behavior to be ruled by your head and not by your heart.

And for heaven's sake, from now on insist on condoms -- the first time,
every time -- in this day and age I can't believe anyone would NOT use
one in any non- monogomous setting, regardless of birth control issues:
it is a disease reduction issue. I sincerely hope you are insisting on
them now! People who have affairs often don't stop at one -- like it or
not, he could well have a third person on the side -- and you want to
reduce the likelyhood of contracting any STDs.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

dragonlady shared the following
perspective and opinions:


Three things:

1 - If he DOES leave his wife and marry you, you will be married to
someone who you know is willing to commit (and condone) infidelity. Is
that something you really want?

NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me. I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.), maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.

As stated, I have no idea how our relationship would be if it were
real, meaning everyday life, that's one reason why I have never asked
him to leave, to be with me.

People change, not always, but most people grow and learn from the
things in their lives. I can see that it pains him to hurt her ...
and to hurt me.

I know what I want to believe, that he wouldn't do it again, but I
cannot say what the future holds for any of us.

2 - The model you are giving your daughter is that adultery is OK if you
are "in love". Think hard about the morals you want your daughter to
adopt -- she will NOT learn from what you say, she will learn from your
behavior.

I know. I started (what has been a slow process) of ending the
relationship 6 months ago. Each go round (me saying it's over, him
saying that he loves me and can't not tell me, me getting drawn back
into the hope for love and a whole relationship with him), we get
closer and closer to the goal.

I have set a deadline for myself for this to be resolved one way or
another by the time she is 2. He either must accept a co-parent only
relationship, leave his marriage (which I will never push him to do),
or leave our lives (which I will push him to do, if necessary).

3 - What will your daughter's relationship with her half-siblings be
like once they realize that SHE is the cause of their parent's divorce?
(And even if that isn't completely true, they will believe it IS true --
you will be the REALLY evil step mother.)

I hadn't really considered that. I would hope that over time they
will realize that SHE is not the cause of their parent's divorce, that
their parent's problems are just that - their parent's problems - and
that those problems were exacerbated by a choice that their father
made.


Unless you AND HE AND HIS WIFE are willing to condone polyamory as a
moral choice -- and I'm guessing his wife would say she is not -- in the

I would guess that you would be right! And I don't think that I would
be either. We all deserve more than sharing him.

long run you are hurting your daughter more than helping her. If you
ALL are willing to live a polyamorous life, then I suggest you look into
it (it only works when ALL parties support it) and move on from there.
He gets both you and his wife, and your relationship with him and his
with you and his daughter come out of the closet.

Under ALL other circumstances, I suggest you immediately stop seeing him
in any way other than as a co-parent; that one, you and he are stuck
with.

Again, I am really trying to do just that, and I get stronger and
better at it every day.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


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On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:30:39 GMT, Paula
wrote:
dragonlady shared the following
perspective and opinions:


Three things:

1 - If he DOES leave his wife and marry you, you will be married to
someone who you know is willing to commit (and condone) infidelity. Is
that something you really want?

NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me. I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.), maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.

Previously, you wrote:

: Immediately following that weekend, I asked him if he was married. He
: told me that he was, implied that he wasn't fully satisfied but gave
: no details, and said that he would "never leave his children".

I submit that this was a lie of omission to get into your pants. So he
already has a history of lying to you. Had he told you at the onset that
he was married, would you have had sex with him?

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Tony Miller shared the following perspective and
opinions:

On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:30:39 GMT, Paula
wrote:
... snip ...
NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me. I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.), maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.

Previously, you wrote:

: Immediately following that weekend, I asked him if he was married. He
: told me that he was, implied that he wasn't fully satisfied but gave
: no details, and said that he would "never leave his children".

I submit that this was a lie of omission to get into your pants. So he
already has a history of lying to you. Had he told you at the onset that
he was married, would you have had sex with him?

Please explain the relevance and I will provide the answer.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


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Paula wrote:
Tony Miller shared the following perspective and
opinions:


On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:30:39 GMT, Paula
wrote:

... snip ...

NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me. I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.), maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.

Previously, you wrote:

: Immediately following that weekend, I asked him if he was married. He
: told me that he was, implied that he wasn't fully satisfied but gave
: no details, and said that he would "never leave his children".

I submit that this was a lie of omission to get into your pants. So he
already has a history of lying to you. Had he told you at the onset that
he was married, would you have had sex with him?


Please explain the relevance and I will provide the answer.

Paula


The relevance? You said you could never forgive a deliberate,
intentional lie, yet the basis of your entire relationship is a lie. He
didn't tell you he was married. That was a lie, yet you are trying to
make all kinds of plans and have all kinds of hopes for this
"relationship" based on the pipe dream that 'at least he hasn't lied.'
He lied to you, he lied to his wife, and he lied to his kids.

If you are saying he has never lied to you, then he must have told you
he was married, and you decided to have sex anyway.

On Sat, 29 May 2004 22:01:52 GMT, Paula
wrote:
Tony Miller shared the following perspective and
opinions:

On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:30:39 GMT, Paula
wrote:
... snip ...
NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me. I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.), maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.

Previously, you wrote:

: Immediately following that weekend, I asked him if he was married. He
: told me that he was, implied that he wasn't fully satisfied but gave
: no details, and said that he would "never leave his children".

I submit that this was a lie of omission to get into your pants. So he
already has a history of lying to you. Had he told you at the onset that
he was married, would you have had sex with him?

Please explain the relevance and I will provide the answer.

Sure. Trying to determine if he was the kind of guy who would lie even if
the truth was easier.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Paula writes:

dragonlady shared the following
perspective and opinions:


Three things:

1 - If he DOES leave his wife and marry you, you will be married to
someone who you know is willing to commit (and condone) infidelity. Is
that something you really want?

NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me.

I wonder if his wife ever asked that of him. Quite likely yes.

I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.),

Realize then that he has made a deliberate, intentional lie to his
wife, someone he promised to hold dearer than all others (or some such
thing).

maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.

As stated, I have no idea how our relationship would be if it were
real, meaning everyday life, that's one reason why I have never asked
him to leave, to be with me.

People change, not always, but most people grow and learn from the
things in their lives. I can see that it pains him to hurt her ...
and to hurt me.

Not that much, since he's been doing it for a couple of years now, yes?

This is the most pathetic post I have ever written.

Paula, Jesus Christ! Have some integrity, Have some self respect. Why are
you wasting your life with all this stupidity.

Get a man who loves you and can marry you and can take care of you and your
little illigetimate child. Your current situation is a one-way ticket to
Nowheresville. Can't you see that? Move on - get a life - more importantly
GET SOME SELF ESTEEM will you please?

Em

"Auntie Em" Auntie shared the following
perspective and opinions:

This is the most pathetic post I have ever written.

Paula, Jesus Christ! Have some integrity, Have some self respect. Why are
you wasting your life with all this stupidity.

Get a man who loves you and can marry you and can take care of you and your
little illigetimate child. Your current situation is a one-way ticket to
Nowheresville. Can't you see that? Move on - get a life - more importantly
GET SOME SELF ESTEEM will you please?

I do see that the "current situation is a one-way ticket to
Nowheresville" thus the request for additional opinions and
perspectives before making a change that will affect my child for the
rest of her life.

I will not dispute that I have self esteem issues ... but it is not
non-existant. And that is why I must say that your direction to get a
man who can marry me and take care of my "little iligetimate child" is
absurd, judgemental, and filled with hate.

Therefore I will be reading no more of your posts. You have every
right to your opinion, but it provides no wisdom and is worthless in
my quest to gather all the information, perspectives, and opinions
that I can to make a very important decision for myself and my
daughter.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


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