Ages of Sitting In Seat With Just Belt

--
Cadie, 19
Aries, 17.5 months
"Sue" wrote in message
...
"Cadie" wrote in message
But personally, I feel any teen or tween or kid who would commit suicide
over a booster seat (as so many of you seem to imply would happen)
needed
to be getting professional help a long time before they got to middle
school. Because OBVIOUSLY something else is going on. If everything
else
was fine, then a booster seat wouldn't be that big of a deal.

You hear all the time about kids who were over achievers and good
students,
who had everything going for them who commit suicide. The parents and
everyone around them had no clue that the child was on the verge of
suicide.
So I disagree that you would be able to intervene before a suicide took
place. And you never know sometimes what is going to set it off. Sometimes
you just never know. I think that you need to actually have a middle
schooler or teen before you start knowing what these kids go through with
their socal stigma if they are a just a little bit different. It's easy to
say I'll do this or that when you have a baby or toddler that you can
control every aspect of their life, but once you have an older child who
is
not always with you and is starting to have a life of their own, then it
becomes a little bit more difficult to start controling their every move,
especially what they sit on. Even if you had an inflatable seat to sit on,
it doesn't guarantee that they will sit on it if no one else is,
especially
if the kids are going in multiple cars all the time. I honestly think a
better solution to all of this is to design cars safer and design seat
belts
so that a shorter tween or teen could use them without the social stigma
of
a booster seat.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)



Seeing as how its only been... lets count.... 5 years since I LEFT middle
school, I think I know how things are in middle school. All must remember I
just became an adult.

And I was the good student and over achiever, straight A's, never any
trouble, talking about Harvard and scholarships, but they still knew
something was wrong. There are other signs, but one just had to pay
attention to them. And thankfully in my case, someone did.

I think people are more worried about protecting their kids from others when
they should be protecting them from themselves.

And yeah, I guess I am lucky Aries is still a toddler, because knowing what
I know about school and the people in it, means I can prepare him well to
handle it, and let him know he's ALWAYS got me to talk to, so it doesn't
come down to he's short and sitting in a booster and then kills himself
because of how "socially stigmatic" that is.

But then, I truly hope my son will always value his safety over what other
people that are meaningless in his lives, and will only be there a short
time, think of him. And taht's a value I intend to instill in him... wish
more parents would.

Cadie


---
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In article jr9Mc.168172$Oq2.161949@attbi_s52,
"Cadie" wrote:

--
Cadie, 19
Aries, 17.5 months
"Sue" wrote in message
...
"Cadie" wrote in message
But personally, I feel any teen or tween or kid who would commit suicide
over a booster seat (as so many of you seem to imply would happen)
needed
to be getting professional help a long time before they got to middle
school. Because OBVIOUSLY something else is going on. If everything
else
was fine, then a booster seat wouldn't be that big of a deal.

You hear all the time about kids who were over achievers and good
students,
who had everything going for them who commit suicide. The parents and
everyone around them had no clue that the child was on the verge of
suicide.
So I disagree that you would be able to intervene before a suicide took
place. And you never know sometimes what is going to set it off. Sometimes
you just never know. I think that you need to actually have a middle
schooler or teen before you start knowing what these kids go through with
their socal stigma if they are a just a little bit different. It's easy to
say I'll do this or that when you have a baby or toddler that you can
control every aspect of their life, but once you have an older child who
is
not always with you and is starting to have a life of their own, then it
becomes a little bit more difficult to start controling their every move,
especially what they sit on. Even if you had an inflatable seat to sit on,
it doesn't guarantee that they will sit on it if no one else is,
especially
if the kids are going in multiple cars all the time. I honestly think a
better solution to all of this is to design cars safer and design seat
belts
so that a shorter tween or teen could use them without the social stigma
of
a booster seat.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)



Seeing as how its only been... lets count.... 5 years since I LEFT middle
school, I think I know how things are in middle school. All must remember I
just became an adult.

And I was the good student and over achiever, straight A's, never any
trouble, talking about Harvard and scholarships, but they still knew
something was wrong. There are other signs, but one just had to pay
attention to them. And thankfully in my case, someone did.

I would add, however, that even when you're paying attention, some signs
can be missed.

My daughter was in treatment for depression in eighth grade, but even
the experts didn't realize she was suicidal until she tried. And a
friend of mine is currently going through the same thing with her son --
a little older (10th grade) but even though he was being seen, no one
saw any suicidal signs.

Yes, parents need to pay attention, but the face of adolescent
depression is NOT always easy to see, and not all suicidal kids talk to
anyone about it.

In my friend's case, it turned out her son DID talk to other kids about
it -- so one of the absolutely critical things we need to do is try to
convince our kids that their promises of secrecy MUST go out the window
when a friend discloses suicidal thoughts -- and especially if they
actually have a plan for it!


I think people are more worried about protecting their kids from others when
they should be protecting them from themselves.

And yeah, I guess I am lucky Aries is still a toddler, because knowing what
I know about school and the people in it, means I can prepare him well to
handle it, and let him know he's ALWAYS got me to talk to, so it doesn't
come down to he's short and sitting in a booster and then kills himself
because of how "socially stigmatic" that is.

But then, I truly hope my son will always value his safety over what other
people that are meaningless in his lives, and will only be there a short
time, think of him. And taht's a value I intend to instill in him... wish
more parents would.

Most of us try. My daughter is older now, and, even looking back, I'm
not sure there is a damned thing I could have done differently.
Fortunately, she's doing well now.

Cadie


---
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--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

--
Cadie, 19
Aries, 17.5 months
"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article jr9Mc.168172$Oq2.161949@attbi_s52,
"Cadie" wrote:

--
Cadie, 19
Aries, 17.5 months
"Sue" wrote in message
...
"Cadie" wrote in message
But personally, I feel any teen or tween or kid who would commit
suicide
over a booster seat (as so many of you seem to imply would happen)
needed
to be getting professional help a long time before they got to middle
school. Because OBVIOUSLY something else is going on. If everything
else
was fine, then a booster seat wouldn't be that big of a deal.

You hear all the time about kids who were over achievers and good
students,
who had everything going for them who commit suicide. The parents and
everyone around them had no clue that the child was on the verge of
suicide.
So I disagree that you would be able to intervene before a suicide
took
place. And you never know sometimes what is going to set it off.
Sometimes
you just never know. I think that you need to actually have a middle
schooler or teen before you start knowing what these kids go through
with
their socal stigma if they are a just a little bit different. It's
easy to
say I'll do this or that when you have a baby or toddler that you can
control every aspect of their life, but once you have an older child
who
is
not always with you and is starting to have a life of their own, then
it
becomes a little bit more difficult to start controling their every
move,
especially what they sit on. Even if you had an inflatable seat to sit
on,
it doesn't guarantee that they will sit on it if no one else is,
especially
if the kids are going in multiple cars all the time. I honestly think
a
better solution to all of this is to design cars safer and design seat
belts
so that a shorter tween or teen could use them without the social
stigma
of
a booster seat.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)



Seeing as how its only been... lets count.... 5 years since I LEFT
middle
school, I think I know how things are in middle school. All must
remember I
just became an adult.

And I was the good student and over achiever, straight A's, never any
trouble, talking about Harvard and scholarships, but they still knew
something was wrong. There are other signs, but one just had to pay
attention to them. And thankfully in my case, someone did.

I would add, however, that even when you're paying attention, some signs
can be missed.

My daughter was in treatment for depression in eighth grade, but even
the experts didn't realize she was suicidal until she tried. And a
friend of mine is currently going through the same thing with her son --
a little older (10th grade) but even though he was being seen, no one
saw any suicidal signs.

Yes, parents need to pay attention, but the face of adolescent
depression is NOT always easy to see, and not all suicidal kids talk to
anyone about it.

In my friend's case, it turned out her son DID talk to other kids about
it -- so one of the absolutely critical things we need to do is try to
convince our kids that their promises of secrecy MUST go out the window
when a friend discloses suicidal thoughts -- and especially if they
actually have a plan for it!


I think people are more worried about protecting their kids from others
when
they should be protecting them from themselves.

And yeah, I guess I am lucky Aries is still a toddler, because knowing
what
I know about school and the people in it, means I can prepare him well
to
handle it, and let him know he's ALWAYS got me to talk to, so it doesn't
come down to he's short and sitting in a booster and then kills himself
because of how "socially stigmatic" that is.

But then, I truly hope my son will always value his safety over what
other
people that are meaningless in his lives, and will only be there a short
time, think of him. And taht's a value I intend to instill in him...
wish
more parents would.

Most of us try. My daughter is older now, and, even looking back, I'm
not sure there is a damned thing I could have done differently.
Fortunately, she's doing well now.

Cadie


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care


Well, I guess my main point in my first email was that if a parent is saying
"Sitting in a booster seat in middle school could lead to suicide" (which SO
many have said), that obviously means they think they're depressed enough
that something will set them over the edge. So instead of taking away one
of the things that can cause it, try to fix it... because something else
will come along if you don't. Because a booster seat on it's own isn't
going to do it. So if mom is ALREADY thinking booster seat will cause major
depression, then she has to already be thinking something else is wrong...
and I think should take more appropriate action then just saving said child
from booster seat. Because next thing you know, it will be something like
the tennis shoes child is wearing, but mom doesn't see that as so socially
stigmatic as the booster, so make her wear them. If you're thinking your
child will get so depressed and/or suicidal over a booster seat then you
must be seeing something else going on. That's all I'm saying. Because a
booster seat alone, in a normally happy not depressed middle school aged
child is NOT going to bring them to the brink of suicide.

Cadie


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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In article YwaMc.12289$eM2.8955@attbi_s51,
"Cadie" wrote:

--
Cadie, 19
Aries, 17.5 months
"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article jr9Mc.168172$Oq2.161949@attbi_s52,
"Cadie" wrote:

--
Cadie, 19
Aries, 17.5 months
"Sue" wrote in message
...
"Cadie" wrote in message
But personally, I feel any teen or tween or kid who would commit
suicide
over a booster seat (as so many of you seem to imply would happen)
needed
to be getting professional help a long time before they got to middle
school. Because OBVIOUSLY something else is going on. If everything
else
was fine, then a booster seat wouldn't be that big of a deal.

You hear all the time about kids who were over achievers and good
students,
who had everything going for them who commit suicide. The parents and
everyone around them had no clue that the child was on the verge of
suicide.
So I disagree that you would be able to intervene before a suicide
took
place. And you never know sometimes what is going to set it off.
Sometimes
you just never know. I think that you need to actually have a middle
schooler or teen before you start knowing what these kids go through
with
their socal stigma if they are a just a little bit different. It's
easy to
say I'll do this or that when you have a baby or toddler that you can
control every aspect of their life, but once you have an older child
who
is
not always with you and is starting to have a life of their own, then
it
becomes a little bit more difficult to start controling their every
move,
especially what they sit on. Even if you had an inflatable seat to sit
on,
it doesn't guarantee that they will sit on it if no one else is,
especially
if the kids are going in multiple cars all the time. I honestly think
a
better solution to all of this is to design cars safer and design seat
belts
so that a shorter tween or teen could use them without the social
stigma
of
a booster seat.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)



Seeing as how its only been... lets count.... 5 years since I LEFT
middle
school, I think I know how things are in middle school. All must
remember I
just became an adult.

And I was the good student and over achiever, straight A's, never any
trouble, talking about Harvard and scholarships, but they still knew
something was wrong. There are other signs, but one just had to pay
attention to them. And thankfully in my case, someone did.

I would add, however, that even when you're paying attention, some signs
can be missed.

My daughter was in treatment for depression in eighth grade, but even
the experts didn't realize she was suicidal until she tried. And a
friend of mine is currently going through the same thing with her son --
a little older (10th grade) but even though he was being seen, no one
saw any suicidal signs.

Yes, parents need to pay attention, but the face of adolescent
depression is NOT always easy to see, and not all suicidal kids talk to
anyone about it.

In my friend's case, it turned out her son DID talk to other kids about
it -- so one of the absolutely critical things we need to do is try to
convince our kids that their promises of secrecy MUST go out the window
when a friend discloses suicidal thoughts -- and especially if they
actually have a plan for it!


I think people are more worried about protecting their kids from others
when
they should be protecting them from themselves.

And yeah, I guess I am lucky Aries is still a toddler, because knowing
what
I know about school and the people in it, means I can prepare him well
to
handle it, and let him know he's ALWAYS got me to talk to, so it doesn't
come down to he's short and sitting in a booster and then kills himself
because of how "socially stigmatic" that is.

But then, I truly hope my son will always value his safety over what
other
people that are meaningless in his lives, and will only be there a short
time, think of him. And taht's a value I intend to instill in him...
wish
more parents would.

Most of us try. My daughter is older now, and, even looking back, I'm
not sure there is a damned thing I could have done differently.
Fortunately, she's doing well now.

Cadie


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 7/16/2004


--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care


Well, I guess my main point in my first email was that if a parent is saying
"Sitting in a booster seat in middle school could lead to suicide" (which SO
many have said), that obviously means they think they're depressed enough
that something will set them over the edge. So instead of taking away one
of the things that can cause it, try to fix it... because something else
will come along if you don't. Because a booster seat on it's own isn't
going to do it. So if mom is ALREADY thinking booster seat will cause major
depression, then she has to already be thinking something else is wrong...
and I think should take more appropriate action then just saving said child
from booster seat. Because next thing you know, it will be something like
the tennis shoes child is wearing, but mom doesn't see that as so socially
stigmatic as the booster, so make her wear them. If you're thinking your
child will get so depressed and/or suicidal over a booster seat then you
must be seeing something else going on. That's all I'm saying. Because a
booster seat alone, in a normally happy not depressed middle school aged
child is NOT going to bring them to the brink of suicide.


I have to agree with that.

I know middle school age kids are often fragile. But it is no one thing
that "puts them over the edge" -- it is many, many things.

Under no circumstances would I sacrifice something I considered a
crucial safety issue over something that might invite stigma. On the
other hand, I'm not yet convinced that the push to put larger and larger
people in booster seats constitutes a crucial safety issue. Since my
kids are older, I haven't looked into it that much -- from this
(uneducated) view, it looks like overkill, but it may not be.

Come to think of it, since I do sometimes transport middle school age
kids (and sometimes a bit younger) in my van, this IS something I need
to learn more about.

Another task for my to-do list . . . thanks, guys.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

You have been mis-understanding me. I said I was bracing for arguements
from my 5.5 year old to stop using his high-back booster seat with belt
router. He is entering K this year. In my state the law for being in a
child safety restraint is 4 years old or 40 lbs. (Which he is more). I was
wondering when did others stop using the seat.

I do admit I believe waiting until a child is 80lbs is extreme. (I
mentioned myself as not being that heavy until middle school- hence that big
debate).

Personally, from all of this, I would love to see a change in how the
seatbelts are designed and the marketing of boosters to older children (yes,
even the cheap-o plastic backless ones...which you have to admit is like
sitting on those miserable chairs in school!)

You do have to admit, if something is the law, peoples perceptions change.
(Just think of the seatbelt laws in general).

However, on a side note, I was lucky we could afford to make changes and
drive a miserable gas-guzzling vehicle.
"julia" wrote in message
...


valerie ramano wrote:
Really you can fit 3 car seats in the back of your Camry?

I have done it on many occasions. It isn't even a struggle. There is
room.

I could not fit a
rear face Graco, a foward face Britax and a forward face Booster with
internal harness into my 1999 Nissan Altima...sence why we got a
minivan.

Good for you. Then you can keep your kids safe in your minivan, and you
shouldn't feel ashamed about it.

When I bought the Nissan in 1999 we only planned on 2 kids.

So, you had another kid, and got an appropriate vehicle. That was the
right thing to do.

But with all the complaining about keeping the kids in booster seats,
one would think that you didn't have a large enough vehicle. You do
have one, so what is the problem? Putting a seatbelt on a kid in a
booster does not take any more time or effort than putting a seatbelt on
a kid without one. The 5 point harness carseats for kids under 40
pounds do take an extra 10 seconds, but boosters just position the belt.
And no, I don't give a hoot about whether the kid feels "cool" or not.






"julia" wrote in message
...


Marty Billingsley wrote:

In article , julia

wrote:

valerie ramano wrote:


Very true on the motivation for keeping them in longer when the law
is

being

changed, or in our instance when you will be moving to a state with

higher

limits.

The issue was brought up last year in my state to raise, but was

defeated.

Many parents felt with larger families, they were being forced into

driving

larger SUVs or minivans, which are not as fuel efficent as smaller
passenger vehicles.

Now this I just don't get. If you have a large family (more than 5
total) then you need a minivan or SUV if you want to go somewhere all
together. The carseats or boosters have nothing to do with this. A
regular sized car has only 5 spots with seatbelts.


Yes, but if you have two car seats in the back seat of a small
passenger car, you can't fit a third person -- even a skinny kid --
between them. I've got a Ford Escort wagon and can't take more
than one passenger (other than my twins), and that person has to
be an adult because the front is the only seat available.

It is true that some cars are very skinny, but if you have kids, one of
the things you have to do when choosing a car is to take that into
consideration. I can fit 2 huge carseats plus a normal size adult in
the back of my Camry. I can also fit 3 large carseats with no problem
at all, and have done it many times when carpooling.

We selected the car with this in mind. There are definitely choices, so
I still say it is absolutely ludicrous to blame the boosters (which take
even LESS room and which the OP is complaining about) for the choice of
a less fuel efficient car. There are plenty of choices which don't
sacrifice the safety of your kid.

I'll even go one step further and say that if you cannot safely
transport your kids in your car because it is too narrow, then you
either need to choose a different car, or choose not to transport all
your kids at once--or, if you are so in love with a particular car that
you would sacrifice your kids' safety, then you need to have fewer kids.


If I had a third kid, while my first two are in car seats, I'd have
to get a bigger car. And that's not a huge family....

My Toyota Camry isn't big, and I tested many cars of that size that
could easily fit 3 carseats across. Once again, the boosters that would
be required by law fit even more easily.

Believe me, I tried with all my might to get the three seats to fit. I
*loved* my Nissan. I still get teary-eyed when I pass by the dealer where I
bought the minivan!

I live where I *have* to parallel park everyday. I hate finding a spave for
that damn van!
"Sophie" wrote in message
...

"valerie ramano" wrote in message
...
Really you can fit 3 car seats in the back of your Camry? I could not
fit
a
rear face Graco, a foward face Britax and a forward face Booster with
internal harness into my 1999 Nissan Altima...sence why we got a
minivan.
When I bought the Nissan in 1999 we only planned on 2 kids.

One of my rental cars was a Nissan Altima, I fit all my kids in the back.
The Dodge Intrepid had the most room (but was the least comfy for me).

In article ,
Donna Metler wrote:

With the new law, at least half my kids will be legally required to have
booster seats. Almost all of them really still should have them based on
size. So, as a director do I:

We have a similar law in VT. What our school does for driving field
trips is a combination of C and D.

C) Require that each child bring a booster seat with them on the days we're
performing (and pray they don't get left behind-also, how hard are they to
install/remove) and hope that all the kids have them (not all the parents
have cars, since this is a low-income area and public transit picks up only
about 2 blocks away).

D) Try to get donations of booster seats (would that even be safe? I'd have
no way of knowing the history) and try to store them between performances?

Belt-positioning booster seats (what you need at this age) are trivial
to move and install. You just put them on the seat and buckle the
normal seatbelt around them, with a little special positioning of the
shoulder belt into a positioner, sometimes.

History is (IMO, haven't done the research) much less relevant for
BPB's than for carseats with integrated harnesses. We've had several
donated over the years by families whose children have outgrown them,
which are used as backup for when one is forgotten or a family doesn't
have one.

Our school actually instituted this policy based on best practice
recommendations a few years before the law came into effect. I forget
the exact cutoffs we use, but it is based on size, not age (except
insofar as age requirements are codified into state law).

--Robyn

Hi -

My kids are 6 and 8, with birthdays rapidly approaching. My older boy
wieghs a bit over 60 pounds, my younger one about 45. They both know
that they stay in a booster until:

1. They hit 80 pounds and
2. When they sit in a regular seat in a car they can sti back
comfortably AND thier knees can bend comfortably over the front edge of
the seat.

Those are the two factors that make discarding the booster safe.

That said, my older son does go without a booster from time to time. My
younger son only rarely. The laws locally demand boosters until 8 years
or 80 pounds, although many parents ignore the laws.

The kids haven't complained yet, mostly becasue in the booster they can
see better out of the windows when we're driving.

--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

In article ,
Beth Kevles wrote:

Hi -

My kids are 6 and 8, with birthdays rapidly approaching. My older boy
wieghs a bit over 60 pounds, my younger one about 45. They both know
that they stay in a booster until:

1. They hit 80 pounds and
2. When they sit in a regular seat in a car they can sti back
comfortably AND thier knees can bend comfortably over the front edge of
the seat.

Those are the two factors that make discarding the booster safe.

Do you know why the weight matters?

I just used your second criterion (combined with the fact that our
vehicle's seatbelt crosses his shoulder properly in that seating
position) to allow my almost-11yo to quit using his booster, even
though he's nowhere near 80 lbs. He honestly never minded using
the booster until now, and would willingly go back to it if I learn
that there is a good reason, but I can't find any information about
why a minimum weight is suggested. Most info I have seen recommends
a multi-point test related to sitting without slumping (as your
point 2 gets at) and where the shoulder belt lies.

My 8yo is still in a booster, and will be for the forseeable future.

Our state has just recently required them up to 8yo as well.

--Robyn

My son is 7.5 and pretty big for his age (73 lbs and 54in) but I still have
him in a booster-the backless kind. He was in the kind with a back until
pretty recently ( I changed after he turned 7). I am going to keep him in it
until he is eight. I think he will be 80 lbs, or almost by then, plus he's
tall enough that the seatbelt is already at his shoulder anyway. Is the rule
80 AND 8 years old or one or the other? I have a friend with a very small 8
year old (under 50 lbs) and she lets him go with nothing which I think is a
mistake. We are in NY state, not sure what the law is here.


"Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang" wrote in
message ...

"valerie ramano" wrote in message
...
I would be very interested in hearing from those out there about when
your
child was allowed to sit in the car with just a seatbelt? What were
their
ages and approx. weights/heights?

Right now my ds is 5.5 and still in a booster. But I can honestly tell
you
there have been times he has been in a car (carpool for one) with just a
seatbelt (legal in my state). And quite honestly, I am not too certain
how
much longer he will willingly stay in one. Especially now he is
entering
elementary school.

Poll, parents?

Valerie



DD is 6.5 years old, about 48 inches and 45 lbs. She's still in her
booster
seat although she asked that the top portion (it's a high back booster) be
taken off. We agreed. Since the booster seat goes up to 80 lbs, we'll
probably keep her in it until she's tall enough so that the shoulder belt
doesn't rub against her neck.

She's never complained about being in a booster seat.

Jeanne