math class from Hell (aka Banty's nightmare)

Okay, I take it all back. Well, not really, but at least I have
experienced the other side first hand now. I was volunteering in my
son's classroom today (though he wasn't in there -- another peeve),
and I was flabbergasted at what the teacher wanted them to do.

She gave them three sheets -- probably almost 50 questions -- of math
problems like 9+7, 10+3, 4+8 and so on. For each problem she expected
them to write the answer plus a "clue" explaining how they got that
answer. So they couldn't say, "6+4 = 10, because I memorized that
answer." They had to say something like, "I knew 5+5 was 10, and so I
took one away from one five and gave it to the other." Over and over
the kids kept raising their hands and when I went over to help they'd
say, "I just know it in my head, I didn't do anything else to get the
answer." And I didn't know what to say to them because....well,
that's how I know it too. IME, you drill on those basic math facts
until you *don't* have to think about them, and then you use those
basic math facts to be able to do the harder questions more easily.

So I went to the teacher and told her that I feel powerless to help,
and why, and that it seemed that a lot of the kids were having the
same problem. She ended up going around to each one and saying
something like, "Okay, but now think of a *different* way you could
have solved it! It seems like she mostly wanted them to use their
doubles. So what the kids ended up doing was...well, here is a real
example I saw:

10+4 = 14
4+10 = 14

Clue: 10+10 - 6 = 14.

No one is going to convince me that doubling 10 and taking away 6 is
faster, easier, or easier to remember than adding four to 10 in the
first place. And no one is going to convince me that doing this work
in any way helped those kids.

The reason that I'm not quite willing to "take it all back" is that I
have seen other classes where they managed the same concepts in a much
better way. Where "I just knew it" is a valid answer. Where the
questions made more sense. I don't know if the school has adopted a
new and misguided policy since my daughter was in 3rd grade 3 years
ago, or whether it's just that this teacher is a bad teacher (I don't
like her, so I'm inclined to think badly of her anyway). I also don't
know if this is the way my son is being taught in his math class
(hence the peeve -- I volunteer in order to get to know my son's
class -- not to help out other kids. I know some moms prefer not to
be with their own children because it's too difficult, but that's
never been a problem for me.)

Grrr....

Bizby

bizby40 wrote:
Okay, I take it all back. Well, not really, but at least I have
experienced the other side first hand now. I was volunteering in my
son's classroom today (though he wasn't in there -- another peeve),
and I was flabbergasted at what the teacher wanted them to do.

My sympathies ;-)

The reason that I'm not quite willing to "take it all back" is that I
have seen other classes where they managed the same concepts in a much
better way. Where "I just knew it" is a valid answer. Where the
questions made more sense. I don't know if the school has adopted a
new and misguided policy since my daughter was in 3rd grade 3 years
ago, or whether it's just that this teacher is a bad teacher (I don't
like her, so I'm inclined to think badly of her anyway). I also don't
know if this is the way my son is being taught in his math class
(hence the peeve -- I volunteer in order to get to know my son's
class -- not to help out other kids. I know some moms prefer not to
be with their own children because it's too difficult, but that's
never been a problem for me.)

It would be interesting to know why. My guess is
that it's either a newer teacher (taught by different methods
and not enough experience to change) or that something has
changed (textbook, learning standards, pressures from SOLs,
etc.).
Anyway, I'm certainly not glad that you're having
to experience it, but I am glad that you posted about it.
I really do think that we're going to see more and more of
this unless something happens to stem the tide, and I
really don't think it's a good thing when it does happen.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"bizby40" wrote in message
...
She gave them three sheets -- probably almost 50 questions -- of math
problems like 9+7, 10+3, 4+8 and so on. For each problem she expected
them to write the answer plus a "clue" explaining how they got that
answer. So they couldn't say, "6+4 = 10, because I memorized that
answer." They had to say something like, "I knew 5+5 was 10, and so I
took one away from one five and gave it to the other." Over and over
the kids kept raising their hands and when I went over to help they'd
say, "I just know it in my head, I didn't do anything else to get the
answer." And I didn't know what to say to them because....well,
that's how I know it too. IME, you drill on those basic math facts
until you *don't* have to think about them, and then you use those
basic math facts to be able to do the harder questions more easily.

This is so different from the way they taught that to my now 7th grade
daughter. In 1st and 2nd grade they'd do addition and subtraction "facts".
And then they would drill, I think it was 50 problems in two minutes. So if
you didn't just know it you wouldn't finish.

In article , bizby40 says...


Okay, I take it all back. Well, not really, but at least I have
experienced the other side first hand now. I was volunteering in my
son's classroom today (though he wasn't in there -- another peeve),
and I was flabbergasted at what the teacher wanted them to do.

She gave them three sheets -- probably almost 50 questions -- of math
problems like 9+7, 10+3, 4+8 and so on. For each problem she expected
them to write the answer plus a "clue" explaining how they got that
answer. So they couldn't say, "6+4 = 10, because I memorized that
answer." They had to say something like, "I knew 5+5 was 10, and so I
took one away from one five and gave it to the other." Over and over
the kids kept raising their hands and when I went over to help they'd
say, "I just know it in my head, I didn't do anything else to get the
answer." And I didn't know what to say to them because....well,
that's how I know it too. IME, you drill on those basic math facts
until you *don't* have to think about them, and then you use those
basic math facts to be able to do the harder questions more easily.


Yep. Plus, IMO the only decent answer other than "it is", is "I counted on my
fingers", or "I lined up five matchsticks, then another five matchsticks,
counted them together, and came up ten". Because that's all that ten is!

So I went to the teacher and told her that I feel powerless to help,
and why, and that it seemed that a lot of the kids were having the
same problem. She ended up going around to each one and saying
something like, "Okay, but now think of a *different* way you could
have solved it! It seems like she mostly wanted them to use their
doubles. So what the kids ended up doing was...well, here is a real
example I saw:

10+4 = 14
4+10 = 14

Clue: 10+10 - 6 = 14.

Which really gives very little insight into ten, four, or fourteen. It's a kid
cooking up *something* the teacher might like.


No one is going to convince me that doubling 10 and taking away 6 is
faster, easier, or easier to remember than adding four to 10 in the
first place. And no one is going to convince me that doing this work
in any way helped those kids.

Yep.

The reason that I'm not quite willing to "take it all back" is that I
have seen other classes where they managed the same concepts in a much
better way. Where "I just knew it" is a valid answer. Where the
questions made more sense. I don't know if the school has adopted a
new and misguided policy since my daughter was in 3rd grade 3 years
ago, or whether it's just that this teacher is a bad teacher (I don't
like her, so I'm inclined to think badly of her anyway).

Well, given this misbegotten approach, another teacher may have handled it
*better*, but that's like a good actor making the most out of a bad script. And
the better teacher may have consciously diverted from some of the intended
curriculum to allow that "I just know it" is valid.

I remember as a student in elementary school being chided by a teacher for
remembering n X 9 as ((n x 10) - n) instead of knowing it rote. (I STILL do it
that way!) Now they've gone to the other extreme, requiring ALL students to
think in alternate ways. So they come up with contrived stuff.

Banty

Banty wrote:

I remember as a student in elementary school being chided by a teacher for
remembering n X 9 as ((n x 10) - n) instead of knowing it rote. (I STILL do it
that way!) Now they've gone to the other extreme, requiring ALL students to
think in alternate ways. So they come up with contrived stuff.

I can understand a motivation to make sure that
a kid has some other strategy other than rote memorization.
After all, a kid should have a way of figuring things
out if he can't recall it by rote. Still, these techniques
*really* don't seem helpful to me, especially if we're
talking about doing 50 problems that way.

Best wishes,
Ericka

I hear you, sister. I'm mom of three (15, 12 and 8) and I can't tell
you how many times I've had kids have homework meltdowns because of
incomprehensible GARBLE in textbooks, worksheets, and verbal
instructions from teachers.

Hub and I are both university educated adults, and if we can't figure
out the expectation, I'm not sure an 8 year old can (who is usually
weeping and wailing because they think they will be in trouble if they
don't finish the homework).

I've had to write notes a number of times saying the homework wasn't
completed because none of us could figure out what the kid was supposed
to do.

On top of that, our middle kid has an autism spectrum disorder, and
there can be NO ambiguity in the instructions he is given, since he
tends to take things very, very literally. Repeat after me, the kid
needs explicit direction. Do not assume he has a clue what your vague
instructions mean, or that he can just sort of interpolate what you
want.

Mary

wrote in message
ups.com...
I hear you, sister. I'm mom of three (15, 12 and 8) and I can't tell
you how many times I've had kids have homework meltdowns because of
incomprehensible GARBLE in textbooks, worksheets, and verbal
instructions from teachers.

Hub and I are both university educated adults, and if we can't
figure
out the expectation, I'm not sure an 8 year old can (who is usually
weeping and wailing because they think they will be in trouble if
they
don't finish the homework).

I've had to write notes a number of times saying the homework wasn't
completed because none of us could figure out what the kid was
supposed
to do.

Yes, this is the other problem I've had with this teacher. I think I
wrote about it on here. She expects that the kids will remember
enough about what they did during the day to be able to replicate it
at home, but that assumes that the kids are a) paying close enough
attention the first time, b) can remember what they did for the next 6
hours, and c) understood and did what they were supposed to correctly
in school.

Today was my first day volunteering in the class, and it was pretty
evident to me that my kid isn't the only one lost in that class....

Bizby

bizby40 wrote:

Grrr....

Ask Doug (in the other group) about this.

jen

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
bizby40 wrote:
questions made more sense. I don't know if the school has adopted
a new and misguided policy since my daughter was in 3rd grade 3
years ago, or whether it's just that this teacher is a bad teacher
(I don't

It would be interesting to know why. My guess is
that it's either a newer teacher (taught by different methods
and not enough experience to change) or that something has
changed (textbook, learning standards, pressures from SOLs,
etc.).

I'm not sure. She's only been at this school for 3 years, teaching
3rd grade for two. But she doesn't seem all that young to me. I'm
thinking she's 30ish. You know....Well, as I've said, I'm not crazy
about this teacher, so I may be biased, but I don't think that this
being "what she knows" is it. If she "knew it" so well, I think she
would do a better job of conveying what she wants to the kids (and any
adult volunteers who happened to be in the class :-).

Anyway, I'm certainly not glad that you're having
to experience it, but I am glad that you posted about it.
I really do think that we're going to see more and more of
this unless something happens to stem the tide, and I
really don't think it's a good thing when it does happen.

The thing is that I have seen this concept handled in better ways. I
really liked what his first grade teacher did with grouping. She
would put up a group of random dots on the overhead, and then ask,
"How many?" When the class got the answer she'd begin asking "Can
someone tell me how you got that?" So kid A might say, "I saw this
five, and this five, and there were three more." and kid B might say
"I just counted." and kid C might say, "I counted by 2s and then there
was one more." And there was no wrong answer. I thought that was
good because it let the kids all think about the problem in different
ways. Kids who were stuck counting every time might learn some tricks
to get the answer faster and easier.

The problem today was two-fold. First, the problems are too easy. A
first or second grader adding 6+5 might actually need to use a "trick"
like realizing that it was one more than 5+5. By 3rd grade, most kids
are at the point where they don't need to think about these easy
problems. Second, she insisted that every kid do this individually.
So there was no sharing of ideas, and every kid was expected to come
up with an answer (three whole worksheets of them!) whether or not
they actually used any tricks. Oh, and a third problem. It was
pretty obvious during the discussion that they kids weren't getting
it, and she sent them off to do it anyway.

I will sometimes use tricks when my daughter asks for help. She'll
say something like, "Does 7 go into 132?" And I'll say, "Well, we
know 7 goes into 14, so it must go into 140, so do you think it goes
into 132?"

I asked DS if they did the same assignment in his class, and he said
no (thank goodness)!

Bizby

"Cathy Kearns" wrote in message
t...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...
She gave them three sheets -- probably almost 50 questions -- of
math
problems like 9+7, 10+3, 4+8 and so on. For each problem she
expected
them to write the answer plus a "clue" explaining how they got that
answer. So they couldn't say, "6+4 = 10, because I memorized that
answer." They had to say something like, "I knew 5+5 was 10, and
so I
took one away from one five and gave it to the other." Over and
over
the kids kept raising their hands and when I went over to help
they'd
say, "I just know it in my head, I didn't do anything else to get
the
answer." And I didn't know what to say to them because....well,
that's how I know it too. IME, you drill on those basic math facts
until you *don't* have to think about them, and then you use those
basic math facts to be able to do the harder questions more easily.

This is so different from the way they taught that to my now 7th
grade
daughter. In 1st and 2nd grade they'd do addition and subtraction
"facts".
And then they would drill, I think it was 50 problems in two
minutes. So if
you didn't just know it you wouldn't finish.

That's what they did with my daughter too, although it was 30 problems
in 1.5 minutes. They were doing that with DS last year in 2nd. I
think this must have been the remedial class for them to be doing
these types of problems.

Bizby