Stubborn 4 year old boy.

Beliavsky wrote:
On Feb 18, 7:43 pm, Dom wrote:
I have a 6yo and 4yo, both boys. The younger is extremely stubborn,
and his mother and I are finding it near impossible to get him to do
anything he doesn't want to do. We have tried rewards/bribery,
punishments like removing favourite toys, exclusion, encouragement,
and nothing seems to work. He seems to find satisfaction in resisting
our directions regardless of the consequences or benefits.

Any ideas? We have had professionals tell us they have never seen a
child as stubborn. How can we make him more compliant, but not break
his spirit?

You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so it seems you have
ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive spanking of a child for
severe misbehavior will have bad long-term consequences. Some research
supporting this belief is at http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/ .
[snip]

OTOH, there is a certain temperament which would respond to a spanking
by saying "that didn't hurt". I think it tends to go with stubborness.

I think most of the advice the OP has had is spot on. With a stubborn
child, you have to decide what matters to you and really enforce that.
With the things that you aren't willing to have an hour-long tantrum
over, you don't even make an issue to begin with.

As far as the speech therapy appointment goes, I wouldn't start trying
to get the boy to agree to be good before hand. I might talk about the
appointment by saying what I was going to do - "I'm going to say
'hello', do you think she'll say 'hello' back?"

What I have found is that eventually they will realise that if you
always stick to what you say, they will give in sooner. This takes
*years* of consistancy.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

"Dom" wrote in message
...
I have a 6yo and 4yo, both boys. The younger is extremely stubborn,
and his mother and I are finding it near impossible to get him to do
anything he doesn't want to do. We have tried rewards/bribery,
punishments like removing favourite toys, exclusion, encouragement,
and nothing seems to work. He seems to find satisfaction in resisting
our directions regardless of the consequences or benefits.

Any ideas? We have had professionals tell us they have never seen a
child as stubborn. How can we make him more compliant, but not break
his spirit?

This has been highlighted after attempting speech therapy, and wasting
an entire 1 hour assesment, because he would not attempt the
activities.

Having taken my 4 year old to speech therepy recently, I think that's not
uncommon. They certainly commented that they had children who refused to say
anything so they couldn't assess them.
I know that my #2 tends to be more stubborn when she's lacking attention or
feeling unsettled. Sometimes an afternoon on her own with mummy or daddy
doing something that's a little bit of a treat can work wonders.
Debbie

Penny Gaines wrote:

Beliavsky wrote:
On Feb 18, 7:43 pm, Dom wrote:
I have a 6yo and 4yo, both boys. The younger is extremely stubborn,
and his mother and I are finding it near impossible to get him to do
anything he doesn't want to do. We have tried rewards/bribery,
punishments like removing favourite toys, exclusion, encouragement,
and nothing seems to work. He seems to find satisfaction in resisting
our directions regardless of the consequences or benefits.

Any ideas? We have had professionals tell us they have never seen a
child as stubborn. How can we make him more compliant, but not break
his spirit?

You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so it seems you have
ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive spanking of a child for
severe misbehavior will have bad long-term consequences. Some research
supporting this belief is at http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/ .
[snip]

OTOH, there is a certain temperament which would respond to a spanking
by saying "that didn't hurt". I think it tends to go with stubborness.

I was spanked as a child, and so I thought that was an appropriate way
to do things. But with my stubborn child that was exactly the way she
reacted and that's why I decided that it wasn't an effective method.

I think most of the advice the OP has had is spot on. With a stubborn
child, you have to decide what matters to you and really enforce that.
With the things that you aren't willing to have an hour-long tantrum
over, you don't even make an issue to begin with.

As far as the speech therapy appointment goes, I wouldn't start trying
to get the boy to agree to be good before hand. I might talk about the
appointment by saying what I was going to do - "I'm going to say
'hello', do you think she'll say 'hello' back?"

I have not had a child in speech therapy but maybe there is some
reason that he fears the outcome. Possibly he thinks he will be
rejected by you if he doesn't do well.

My stubborn child was also very competitive, but if she was anxious
about the outcome and thought she might not be successful, she would
talk herself out of trying.

Also it might be that there is a mismatch in personality between the
tester and the testee.

I would really want to want to ask him questions (put so that he has
to say something other than yes or no). What did you like about ..."
and if he says 'nothing', then ask What did you not like?

What I have found is that eventually they will realise that if you
always stick to what you say, they will give in sooner. This takes
*years* of consistancy.

Absolutely

With regard to the speech therapist ... when our children were small and
needed similar assessments, we NEVER told them they were being "tested".
Instead, we told them they were going to meet a nice grownup who would
play or talk with them for a bit. If the child recognized the problem,
then we'd add that the grownup would see what the best ways were to help
the child with the problem. (One child was scared of heights, heights
as low as 4 inches, and was eager to be less scared so he could play
with his friends on the playground.)

Even a 4-year old can have come to associate bad things with the word
"test", and knows that a test can be "failed".

The suggestions that Dorothy made were excellent. Our other son really
benefited from the Molly Bang book (When Sophie Gets Angry). We read it
together and talked about it a LOT. He also benefited, at the age of
four, from having a goal (being allowed to take tae kwon do classes)
that was only attainable once he managed to control his temper. By
that, I don't mean become less angry, but I do mean control how he
responded to his anger.

Good luck,
--Beth Kevles
-THE-COM-HERE
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the GMAIL one if you would
like me to reply.

On Feb 19, 1:17 am, Beliavsky wrote:

"Nonabusive" is defined as about 2 open-hand swats to
the buttocks
when a parent is not angrily out of control.

I hope the NG doesn't rise to the bait on this one. Regardless of
spanking's general role, this kid does not sound like someone who'd be
terribly impressed by 2 open handed swats to the bottom. Absolute
consistency, picking battles very carefully, and teaching him how to
get control of his emotions when he's angrily out of control sounds
like a far more fruitful approach.

Kate, ignorant foot soldier of the medical cartel
and the Bug, 4 and a half
and something brewing, 4/08

On Feb 19, 7:09*am, enigma wrote:
Beliavsky wrote
oups.com:

On Feb 18, 7:43 pm, Dom wrote:
Any ideas? *We have had professionals tell us they have
never seen a child as stubborn. *How can we make him more
compliant, but not break his spirit?

You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so it
seems you have ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive
spanking of a child for severe misbehavior will have bad
long-term consequences.

*i don't think you think much at all. you form an opinion &
then look for *anything* that supports your opinion, even if
you have to deliberately misread it to validate your thoughts.
*the OPs child is not severely misbehaving, he's *stubborn*.
there's a huge difference.

I guess thinking differently from you is the same as not thinking at
all. Are there any situations where you think spanking is justified?

In article , enigma says...

Beliavsky wrote in

oups.com:

On Feb 18, 7:43 pm, Dom wrote:
Any ideas? We have had professionals tell us they have
never seen a child as stubborn. How can we make him more
compliant, but not break his spirit?

You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so it
seems you have ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive
spanking of a child for severe misbehavior will have bad
long-term consequences.

i don't think you think much at all. you form an opinion &
then look for *anything* that supports your opinion, even if
you have to deliberately misread it to validate your thoughts.
the OPs child is not severely misbehaving, he's *stubborn*.
there's a huge difference. since they are having him eveluated
by a speech therapist, there are, most likely, communication
difficulties that the child is having. you may have no idea
just how frustrating that can be to a child, and it's a
frequent cause of acting out behavior.

Notice - his source is from an institution that proudly touts itself as
providing "biblically based education". And the link is taken from a compiled
list of "critiques of anti-spanking research".

So often if one pokes into Beliavsky's posts, one finds agenda-laden sources.

Banty

In article , Welches says...


"Dom" wrote in message
...
I have a 6yo and 4yo, both boys. The younger is extremely stubborn,
and his mother and I are finding it near impossible to get him to do
anything he doesn't want to do. We have tried rewards/bribery,
punishments like removing favourite toys, exclusion, encouragement,
and nothing seems to work. He seems to find satisfaction in resisting
our directions regardless of the consequences or benefits.

Any ideas? We have had professionals tell us they have never seen a
child as stubborn. How can we make him more compliant, but not break
his spirit?

This has been highlighted after attempting speech therapy, and wasting
an entire 1 hour assesment, because he would not attempt the
activities.

Having taken my 4 year old to speech therepy recently, I think that's not
uncommon. They certainly commented that they had children who refused to say
anything so they couldn't assess them.
I know that my #2 tends to be more stubborn when she's lacking attention or
feeling unsettled. Sometimes an afternoon on her own with mummy or daddy
doing something that's a little bit of a treat can work wonders.
Debbie



Yes. My son got speech therapy, and he basically shut down during the
evalutation, as the evaluator pushed a bit hard. He also shut down during his
first visual examination, because the optometrist started by pointing a sharp
pencil close to his face, intending to ask him to follow it as she moved it side
to side. Of course, he didnt' know that, and was startled and just went
straight to my lap.

The solution in both cases was to find someone *else* with a different manner.
He's never been a particularly difficult child, and when he was he would just
shut down (not do anything) rather than tantrum. But I would either decide it's
not so important after all, or I would try to identify what was triggering him
and change that. A time or two I did have to simply make him follow through.

Four is also a particularly difficult age for this sort of thing. My son would
get upset if I took the 'wrong' route to do errands, for example.

Banty

In article ,
Beliavsky says...

On Feb 19, 7:09=A0am, enigma wrote:
Beliavsky wrote innews:1d8ca197-3ea0-46fb-a402-d2940f4=

oups.com:

On Feb 18, 7:43 pm, Dom wrote:
Any ideas? =A0We have had professionals tell us they have
never seen a child as stubborn. =A0How can we make him more
compliant, but not break his spirit?

You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so it
seems you have ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive
spanking of a child for severe misbehavior will have bad
long-term consequences.

=A0i don't think you think much at all. you form an opinion &
then look for *anything* that supports your opinion, even if
you have to deliberately misread it to validate your thoughts.
=A0the OPs child is not severely misbehaving, he's *stubborn*.
there's a huge difference.

I guess thinking differently from you is the same as not thinking at
all. Are there any situations where you think spanking is justified?

I'm actually not anti-spanking - to me any useful tool in the parenting toolbox
is a good thing. In the right hands, though.

Take a look at Akuvikate's post. This isn't a boy that spanking would like work
with, and that can very plausibly make the issue worse.

What Enigma is said is spot on - you want to talk about the hammer you like, so
you think everything is a nail.

Plus you dont' seem to have much ability to evaluate your sources.

Banty

Beliavsky wrote in

oups.com:

On Feb 19, 7:09*am, enigma wrote:
Beliavsky wrote

glegr oups.com:

On Feb 18, 7:43 pm, Dom
wrote:
Any ideas? *We have had professionals tell us they have
never seen a child as stubborn. *How can we make him
more compliant, but not break his spirit?

You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so it
seems you have ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive
spanking of a child for severe misbehavior will have bad
long-term consequences.

*i don't think you think much at all. you form an opinion
& then look for *anything* that supports your opinion,
even if you have to deliberately misread it to validate
your thoughts. *the OPs child is not severely misbehaving,
he's *stubborn*. there's a huge difference.

I guess thinking differently from you is the same as not
thinking at all. Are there any situations where you think
spanking is justified?

my son is 7.5 years old and i can honestly say that there has
never been a situation where i felt the need to spank him. he
is not the most compliant child & he has autistic tendancies,
which can be more than slightly annoying. but hit him? nope.
there are always better & easier solutions than a smack.
lee



--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.