Sleep and older children

shinypenny wrote:

Contrast that to my college roomie, who *had* to work in high school.
Not for gas money and clothes and other wants, but to put aside money
to pay for her college education. Her parents didn't have a dime to
give her for that. She got a fair amount of scholarship money and the
rest was in loans. She worked at McD's - closing hours - all during
high school and socked away every last cent. Then continued to work
through college to pay for books and start making a dent in her loans.

During college my roomie and I would often talk about our very
different situations. She was envious that I had a free ride in
college, didn't have to work, got spending money to buy us pizzas and
keep gas in my car, and wouldn't have any loans to worry about after
graduation. I was impressed at how devoted she was to her goal of
getting an education, and how responsible she was, still managing great
grades despite all the long hours working.

Also I felt that because she had to pay her own way, she had more
confidence in why she was there getting a degree, compared to me. When
selecting classes, she was very meticulous, and wouldn't settle for
filler classes or bad professors, because she was paying for it
herself. I floundered for awhile, feeling like I wasn't sure why I was
there other than it was expected of me. I feel strongly, looking back,
had I been required to pay for at least part of my education, I
would've done things differently, taken a double major perhaps, and
making more out of the experience than I did.

I don't really believe that the two are as strongly
tied as you believe. I never worked a job in high school--
summers or school year--other than babysitting. However,
I hit the ground running in college. I got a lot more money
from scholarships than I ever could have saved with jobs
during high school that would have taken away from the
grades and activities that got me the scholarships. When
I got to college, I had to work during the school year and
during the summer, and I worked significant hours with a
double major in two unrelated and time consuming majors.
I was extremely careful about my classes and had pretty
much planned out my whole schedule (to the extent I was
able) when I got there. I knew what I wanted, and I got
right down to business. My freshman year I worked enough
to pay for all my books/fees/incidentals. By the next
year my work paid for that plus board plus some of my
tuition & room costs. By the next year I was paying
books/fees/incidentals/room/board and some tuition.
By my last couple years my parents had to contribute
very little, especially since I had been building
skills in my area so I could get a professional job
during the summers. My mom says it was crystal clear
to her from the get go that there would be no issues
with my focus and no need to get a job to "learn about
the real world" or "get motivated." I really don't
think that's all that unusual, and I think much of it
came from the emphasis my parents set on academics and
achievement and being a responsible part of the family.
A job is not the only way to acquire those skills and
motivations.

You might scoff at her thankless McD's job,

I do not scoff at her job. I have said before
that one of the assumptions underlying my position is that
my children do not *have* to work in order to support
the family or in order to go to college. They will be
expected to work *in* college (at least if they want to
continue to have the money for incidentals I expect
they'll want to have). However, just because they
don't have to get a high school job to pay for college
doesn't mean they don't have to *work* for college.
They just have other ways to spend their time and energy
that will likely have a much bigger financial return
on their investment when it comes time to go to college.
Heck, I don't know if the boys will continue to enjoy
dancing, but if they choose to continue, time spent
there may reap much bigger rewards in terms of
scholarships than time spent at McDs!

but in addition to truly
understanding the value of money, one thing it taught my roomie is
there was no way she was going to not get an education and resign
herself to a lifetime working minimum wage jobs. Meanwhile, here I was,
totally clueless that majoring in English was going to land me an
entry-level job barely making more than those at minimum wage. It also
taught her all kinds of valuable management skills (by college she was
the restuarant manager). And, the need to be on time (i.e., keep a good
sleep schedule so she could wake up to get there).

I don't deny the value of those things, only
that a job is the only way to get them.

Flash forward to when I graduated... and boom! Reality hit me. Despite
having allowance that was supposed to teach me how to manage money, I
knew absolutely nothing about budgeting or how much things cost. I
struggled for quite a few years learning how to manage my finances. It
was a really rude awakening. I remember when I got my first job and
wanted to move out of the house and into my first apartment. I asked my
dad to give me the bank statements so I could create a realistic budget
based on my spending patterns in college (entertainment, groceries, gas
money, clothing, eating out, etc). When I added it all up - gulp! - I
found I had been spending $14k annually on this stuff (all my dad's
money). That was the same amount as my salary at my first job!! Forget
adding in rent and car payment and insurance ....

When I graduated from college with my undergraduate,
I already had four years of professional work experience
under my belt, in addition to the work I had done during
the school year, and I had been managing my own finances
for years. Nevertheless, I'd never had any formal work
experience prior to college. I probably would have worked
the summer before college; however, my family moved during
that summer and made that problematic. I did not *get*
a car (or a driver's license) until after I had graduated
from college.

Of course there would need to be balance - I'd prohibit a job with too
many hours during the school year. But, frankly, I would really admire
my kids if in high school they opted for a summer job like Zorra had,
over just hanging out all summer long having fun (even if that fun *is*
with family).

I spent every summer working hard--just not at a paying
job. I went away to study music. I went away to Governor's
School. I was involved with other activities that supported
my interests and academics. All of those things made me a
very competitive college and scholarship applicant and, I
believe, made much more of a difference than a summer job
would have. If my kids don't have any interests and just
want to sit on their rumps all summer, sure, I'd prefer to
see them get a job. Even now, though, they spend significant
chunks of the summer working. If they want to do Nutcracker
(which they do), that requires three weeks of full day camp
in the summer to work on the repertoire. My parents couldn't
afford to send me to Interlochen, but if my kids continue to
be passionate about music and can make the cut to get in,
I want them to go--and the band program takes 6 weeks of the
summer. I don't believe in adolescence being all play and
no work. I just see a lot of other things as more valuable
work for an adolescent than flipping burgers. The sort of
job I'd be more likely to consider favorably would be a
job related to the child's career aspirations, but even that
would have to be carefully balanced.
I do not scoff at those who take jobs because they
need to do so to support their family or because that's
the only way for them to get to college. I have nothing
but admiration for those who do what it takes to get
ahead, and nothing but sympathy for the tradeoffs they
have to make to accomplish that. However, our kids
are privileged and not in that situation, so I have the
luxury of being able to take a step back and work with
them to create a more optimal solution. Around here,
most of the kids I know who are working are working
*only* for their own pocket money, and are aghast at
the notion that they ought to be putting some of it
away for college! That completely isn't worth losing
time for school and family over, in my book. I think
they deserve money, but if I can earn the same money
in less than a tenth of the time they can, then it's
a darned good tradeoff to me to give them a reasonable
allowance for pocket money, have more time for family,
and expect them to demonstrate their commitment and
responsibility in other ways.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

I do not scoff at her job. I have said before
that one of the assumptions underlying my position is that
my children do not *have* to work in order to support
the family or in order to go to college. They will be
expected to work *in* college (at least if they want to
continue to have the money for incidentals I expect
they'll want to have).

Not all kids CAN work while in college, unfortunately. I assumed my son
would get a part time job, but he's on a small campus (about 1200 kids)
in a small town (about 4000 people) without a car, and there ARE no
jobs. All of the campus jobs are for kids who have work-study money,
and, on paper, we're too well off for him to get that.

So he's got a summer job lined up, but it won't pay very well -- it is,
however, a research assistant, and will be a pretty impressive
opportunity for him.

Unfortunately, he didn't save money the way he should have from his
previous jobs. He understands that we're NOT providing him with a car
or extra cash -- he made decisions about spending his money on other
stuff, he's stuck with the consequences.

(Our FAFSA form for next year is unfortunate: we had to fill it out
while we were accumulating the cash for a downpayment on a house. Now
that we've BOUGHT the house, it looks different, so DH is trying to
figure out if we can ammend the form!)

However, just because they
don't have to get a high school job to pay for college
doesn't mean they don't have to *work* for college.
They just have other ways to spend their time and energy
that will likely have a much bigger financial return
on their investment when it comes time to go to college.
Heck, I don't know if the boys will continue to enjoy
dancing, but if they choose to continue, time spent
there may reap much bigger rewards in terms of
scholarships than time spent at McDs!

I am watching kids who have had jobs and kids who have not, who are
currently in college, and, frankly, that doesn't seem to be the deciding
factor in how seriously they take school or how focused they are. One
of my son's best friends at college is the daughter of a friend of mine;
she had a few summer jobs, but never had a job during the school year,
and her parents are able to provide her with a car and a substantial
spending-money allowance -- but she is incredibly focused, knows what
she wants, and is working hard at getting it.

I know -- it's only anecdotal -- but my observation of the kids I know
in college right now is that whether or not they have a job, or even
work towards scholarships, doesn't seem to be the deciding factor.

I wish I could tell you what WAS the deciding factor, but I don't see
any consistant patterns!
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article ,
dragonlady says...

In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

I do not scoff at her job. I have said before
that one of the assumptions underlying my position is that
my children do not *have* to work in order to support
the family or in order to go to college. They will be
expected to work *in* college (at least if they want to
continue to have the money for incidentals I expect
they'll want to have).

Not all kids CAN work while in college, unfortunately. I assumed my son
would get a part time job, but he's on a small campus (about 1200 kids)
in a small town (about 4000 people) without a car, and there ARE no
jobs. All of the campus jobs are for kids who have work-study money,
and, on paper, we're too well off for him to get that.

There was a semester I was on food stamps (back then they let you do that as a
student..) although I had been working one way or another since I was 16. Even
then in the '70s, the on-campus jobs were slated for work-study students, and I
wasn't one on paper (they want to see my family of orgin's last tax return, and
that can make a lag of almost two years!), and all the off-campus jobs dried up
due to a recession.

Banty


--

In article ,
Banty wrote:

In article ,
dragonlady says...

In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

I do not scoff at her job. I have said before
that one of the assumptions underlying my position is that
my children do not *have* to work in order to support
the family or in order to go to college. They will be
expected to work *in* college (at least if they want to
continue to have the money for incidentals I expect
they'll want to have).

Not all kids CAN work while in college, unfortunately. I assumed my son
would get a part time job, but he's on a small campus (about 1200 kids)
in a small town (about 4000 people) without a car, and there ARE no
jobs. All of the campus jobs are for kids who have work-study money,
and, on paper, we're too well off for him to get that.

There was a semester I was on food stamps (back then they let you do that as
a
student..) although I had been working one way or another since I was 16.
Even
then in the '70s, the on-campus jobs were slated for work-study students, and
I
wasn't one on paper (they want to see my family of orgin's last tax return,
and
that can make a lag of almost two years!), and all the off-campus jobs dried
up
due to a recession.

Banty


The rules on these things keep changing, but when I was in college as an
undergraduate (1970-1973) I was able to establish myself as emancipated
from my parents when Dad lost his job and they moved away -- so from 19
on (my last 2-1/2 years) my financial aid package was based on MY
income.

Not sure it would have made a huge difference if it had been based on my
folks', but it helped a bit.

My oldest will be 24 soon, and I THINK after that the FAFSA is based on
HER income, so she'll probably qualify for decent aid when she's ready
to transfer to a 4 year school.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
many hours during the school year. But, frankly, I would really
admire
my kids if in high school they opted for a summer job like Zorra
had,
over just hanging out all summer long having fun (even if that fun
*is*
with family).

If my kids don't have any interests and just
want to sit on their rumps all summer, sure, I'd prefer to
see them get a job.

Yep, you pegged it. Those were my only two options -- get a job or
sit on my rump all summer. It's just really lucky my mom was even
able to pry my lazy butt out of bed even for that.

"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Banty wrote:

In article ,
dragonlady says...

In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

I do not scoff at her job. I have said before
that one of the assumptions underlying my position is that
my children do not *have* to work in order to support
the family or in order to go to college. They will be
expected to work *in* college (at least if they want to
continue to have the money for incidentals I expect
they'll want to have).

Not all kids CAN work while in college, unfortunately. I assumed my son
would get a part time job, but he's on a small campus (about 1200 kids)
in a small town (about 4000 people) without a car, and there ARE no
jobs. All of the campus jobs are for kids who have work-study money,
and, on paper, we're too well off for him to get that.

There was a semester I was on food stamps (back then they let you do that
as
a
student..) although I had been working one way or another since I was 16.
Even
then in the '70s, the on-campus jobs were slated for work-study students,
and
I
wasn't one on paper (they want to see my family of orgin's last tax
return,
and
that can make a lag of almost two years!), and all the off-campus jobs
dried
up
due to a recession.

Banty


The rules on these things keep changing, but when I was in college as an
undergraduate (1970-1973) I was able to establish myself as emancipated
from my parents when Dad lost his job and they moved away -- so from 19
on (my last 2-1/2 years) my financial aid package was based on MY
income.

Not sure it would have made a huge difference if it had been based on my
folks', but it helped a bit.

My oldest will be 24 soon, and I THINK after that the FAFSA is based on
HER income, so she'll probably qualify for decent aid when she's ready
to transfer to a 4 year school.

http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/fotw0607/help/fftoc01k.htm

dragonlady wrote:

In article ,
Banty wrote:

In article ,
dragonlady says...

In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

I do not scoff at her job. I have said before
that one of the assumptions underlying my position is that
my children do not *have* to work in order to support
the family or in order to go to college. They will be
expected to work *in* college (at least if they want to
continue to have the money for incidentals I expect
they'll want to have).

Not all kids CAN work while in college, unfortunately. I assumed my son
would get a part time job, but he's on a small campus (about 1200 kids)
in a small town (about 4000 people) without a car, and there ARE no
jobs. All of the campus jobs are for kids who have work-study money,
and, on paper, we're too well off for him to get that.

There was a semester I was on food stamps (back then they let you do that as
a
student..) although I had been working one way or another since I was 16.
Even
then in the '70s, the on-campus jobs were slated for work-study students, and
I
wasn't one on paper (they want to see my family of orgin's last tax return,
and
that can make a lag of almost two years!), and all the off-campus jobs dried
up
due to a recession.

Banty


The rules on these things keep changing, but when I was in college as an
undergraduate (1970-1973) I was able to establish myself as emancipated
from my parents when Dad lost his job and they moved away -- so from 19
on (my last 2-1/2 years) my financial aid package was based on MY
income.

Not sure it would have made a huge difference if it had been based on my
folks', but it helped a bit.

My oldest will be 24 soon, and I THINK after that the FAFSA is based on
HER income, so she'll probably qualify for decent aid when she's ready
to transfer to a 4 year school.

My oldest grandson dropped out of college when he was 18 (as a
freshman). His mom was in an exchange program and the rest of the
family went to England for 3 years. About the time they were due to
come back, he decided to go back to school. That was 3 years ago
(he's going to be 26 in September). He's considered an independent
adult - he'd been living on his own for three years and not claimed on
his parent's income tax forms.


grandma Rosalie

dragonlady wrote:
In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

I do not scoff at her job. I have said before
that one of the assumptions underlying my position is that
my children do not *have* to work in order to support
the family or in order to go to college. They will be
expected to work *in* college (at least if they want to
continue to have the money for incidentals I expect
they'll want to have).

Not all kids CAN work while in college, unfortunately.

True. I think that's one of the things you have
to weigh when figuring out which college to go to.
Certainly, if there were compelling other reasons
for my kid to go to a particular school but jobs
were scarce there, we'd have to figure out if we
could swing the pocket money too or whether another
choice would be preferable.

So he's got a summer job lined up, but it won't pay very well -- it is,
however, a research assistant, and will be a pretty impressive
opportunity for him.

Hopefully it will lead to more and better in
the future ;-) I had work study grants, but as soon
as I figured out that it was possible to get good
jobs without them, I refused them (because they'd make
up that money in other forms of aid and I could still
get a job). The work study really helped when I was
a freshman and no job experience, but after a year
gaining some experience and snooping around I was
able to find non-work study jobs. Better yet, with
a non-work study job I wasn't artificially limited
as to hours.

(Our FAFSA form for next year is unfortunate: we had to fill it out
while we were accumulating the cash for a downpayment on a house. Now
that we've BOUGHT the house, it looks different, so DH is trying to
figure out if we can ammend the form!)

I don't know if it's still the case, but I
did revise things some years. I can't recall if I
revised the FAFSA or if I worked through the school's
financial aid department to make the revisions. I
also always filled out an amended budget because the
"standard" budget was pretty low and I could easily
justify a larger budget (e.g., they usually budgeted
very little for transportation, but the cost of getting
me to school and back for the year and during breaks
when they closed the dorms was significantly higher).

I know -- it's only anecdotal -- but my observation of the kids I know
in college right now is that whether or not they have a job, or even
work towards scholarships, doesn't seem to be the deciding factor.

I think that kids vary, and you can usually get
a pretty good idea how they're likely to respond well
before they go off to college. Also, I tend to be very
practical, and whether or not a certain amount of work
(of one variety or another) is ideal sort of pales in
comparison to the practical matter of whether it's
*necessary* to get to go in the first place ;-) We'll
be able to help our kids significantly for college,
but they'll need to help out as well, especially if
they want to go somewhere pricer ;-) So, thinking
about what they can do to maximize the odds of getting
into and affording the school they want to go to will
likely be the overriding concern!

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 12:54:20 -0400, Ericka Kammerer
wrote:

I got a lot more money
from scholarships than I ever could have saved with jobs
during high school that would have taken away from the
grades and activities that got me the scholarships.

Not necessarily. I had a free ride - full tuition and room and board,
yet I worked as a waitress 4 days a week during my junior and
senior year. You assume that you cannot keep up your grades and
your test scores, but that was not true of many of the kids I knew in
high school. We worked many hours, yet managed to get our schoolwork
done too. What suffered was extra-curricular activities and possibly
family time, but not our grades.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

toto wrote:
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 12:54:20 -0400, Ericka Kammerer
wrote:

I got a lot more money
from scholarships than I ever could have saved with jobs
during high school that would have taken away from the
grades and activities that got me the scholarships.

Not necessarily. I had a free ride - full tuition and room and board,
yet I worked as a waitress 4 days a week during my junior and
senior year. You assume that you cannot keep up your grades and
your test scores, but that was not true of many of the kids I knew in
high school. We worked many hours, yet managed to get our schoolwork
done too. What suffered was extra-curricular activities and possibly
family time, but not our grades.

I don't assume that at all, but these days it's
hard to get a scholarship with grades alone. Those
extracurriculars are important, both if you want to be
admitted to competitive schools and if you want to be
more competitive for scholarship awards. I had above
a 4.0 GPA (from a good HS) and was awarded little
scholarship or grant money on that basis alone.

Best wishes,
Ericka