Man: If women have right to choose, men should have right to deny support-DAILOL

On Nov 15, 10:08 pm, enigma wrote:

Tom Enright wrote
ups.com:

So you do not support "a woman's right to choose"?
Correct? Otherwise, you would support it for all people,
not just half the population.

of course. the man had the right to choose to keep his pants
on. if a man *chooses* to have unprotected sex, he *has* made
a choice. if that choice produces a child, he has no right to
whine & shirk the financial responsibility for raising that
child.

No, I'm talking about after he has sex. Just like the woman has a
right, he should too. Sometimes with equality comes responsibility.

The point of this thread is why women have a right to avoid
parenthood, but men do not. All that I am saying is that
men and women should be equal in this regard. However,
some people are clinging to centuries of stereotypes of the
roles of men and women.

nope, not at all. the only sure fire way to prevent pregnancy
is to not have sex. the possibility of pregnancy goes with
having sex. it's not rocket science. you can weasel word all
you want, but it doesn't change the fact that *yes, the man
made a choice* when he chose to indulge in sex.
lee

Fair enough. You are anti-abortion than, correct?

-Tom Enright

On Nov 15, 9:04 pm, Rosalie B. wrote:
Tom Enright wrote:
On Nov 14, 12:44 pm, Banty wrote:
In article om, Tom Enright
says...

Wrong, there is pay and reward for slavery. A slave receives food,
shelter and basic medical care. A slaveowner does not want his slave
to die, as he has spent money to purchase that slave. That is why in
the southern US in the 19th century Irish immigrants were often given
the most dangerous jobs. You wouldn't risk a slave . Slaves cost
money, the Irish are free.

Leaving aside this idea that supporting one's own child has no reward
(amazing...), you can think of it as a fine or payment for damages caused. Not
slavery; something owed that could have been avoided. Certainly in this kind of
case.

Isn't that the entire point of this thread? Women have the right to
avoid parenthood, shouldn't men have the same right?

Men absolutely have the right to avoid parenthood. All they have to
do is abstain from sex with a woman. Or use contraception.

Of course, but I'm talking about after sex. The rights of men and
women should be equal. What a woman decides to do with her body is
her 100% her choice and 100% her responsbility. To make someone else
responsible for her choices is irrational.

Women can avoid parenthood in the same way - abstain from sex or use
contraception. If a man and a woman have sex and the contraception
fails (or the man forces the woman and she doesn't have a chance to
use protection), then they both have a responsibility to the resulting
child, because they were both involved in creating said child.

(or the woman lies and says she is on BC or cannot get pregnant)

No, their responsibilities are not equal, because their rights are not
equal. Equal responsibility cannot exist with unequal rights. When
men are granted equality with women than you can make that statement.

The only option open to a woman at this point is to have the baby or
to have an abortion. But for many women both abortion and
contraception are against their religion. Since she carries the child
in pregnancy (men don't have the option to do that even if they wanted
to), she gets to say whether she has an abortion or not.

No, the woman can have an abortion, deliver the baby and keep the
child, put the child-up for adoption, raise the child on her own,
expect the government to pay for the child, expect the man to
pay...etc.

The man's choice is gone, once he has sex with her and she conceives.
It will do you no good to whine and complain about slavery. You had a
chance to make a choice and you blew it.

"The man's choice is gone" only because you say "it's gone."
Resolving the problem is simple, just agree that men and women have
equal rights and equal responsibilities. If a man chooses not to be a
parent, not to have responsibility he can decide that, just as the
woman can. Isn't that what "pro-choice" is all about? *

-Tom Enright

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:57:58 -0800 (PST), Tom Enright wrote:

On Nov 15, 8:40 pm, toypup wrote:


You don't work for the woman. You work for your boss. Your boss doesn't
own you. If the woman bears your child, you need to raise your child with
her. It's best done in person, but if not, you don't want to do that, you
owe the money at the very least.

So you do not support "a woman's right to choose"? Correct?
Otherwise, you would support it for all people, not just half the
population.

I support a woman's right to choose. Women *ARE* half the population. I
only support the right for that half, because it is her body. That's just
how it is.

The point of this thread is why women have a right to avoid
parenthood, but men do not. All that I am saying is that men and
women should be equal in this regard. However, some people are
clinging to centuries of stereotypes of the roles of men and women.

People are so worried about their own rights, everyone forgets the child,
and it is the child's rights that are of concern. Once a child is born,
s/he deserves both parents, no matter what went into the decision to have
him/her. For the good of the child, both parents need to be involved, both
physically, emotionally and financially. Unfortunately, if the father
wants to be absent, the only way to force involvement is financially.

wrote in

oups.com:

On Nov 15, 10:08 pm, enigma wrote:

Tom Enright wrote

legro ups.com:

So you do not support "a woman's right to choose"?
Correct? Otherwise, you would support it for all people,
not just half the population.

of course. the man had the right to choose to keep his
pants on. if a man *chooses* to have unprotected sex, he
*has* made a choice. if that choice produces a child, he
has no right to whine & shirk the financial responsibility
for raising that child.

No, I'm talking about after he has sex. Just like the
woman has a right, he should too. Sometimes with equality
comes responsibility.

how do you figure that? he hasn't got to carry the fetus for 9
months & he doesn't have to be physically involved in bringing
up the child if he doesn't want to, so the very least he can
do is contribute financially or materially (maybe child
support should be that dad supply all the kid's food,
clothing, shelter, education & material goods?) i doubt that
would be cheaper than child support currently.
i don't know anything about child support. i'm not married so
can't get divorced (although i gave *my* ex $40,000 lump sum
to get lost... but he's not related to my son & he's still
living in my parlor)

The point of this thread is why women have a right to
avoid parenthood, but men do not. All that I am saying
is that men and women should be equal in this regard.
However, some people are clinging to centuries of
stereotypes of the roles of men and women.

nope, not at all. the only sure fire way to prevent
pregnancy is to not have sex. the possibility of pregnancy
goes with having sex. it's not rocket science. you can
weasel word all you want, but it doesn't change the fact
that *yes, the man made a choice* when he chose to indulge
in sex. lee

Fair enough. You are anti-abortion than, correct?

not necessarily, no. i have a male friend whose exgirlfriend
had an abortion over his objections, but really, it *is* her
body. if she had carried to term, it has been successfully
fought in court that the mother *cannot* give the child up for
adoption to non-family though, IE the dad got custody.
lee

In article ,
says...

On Nov 15, 10:08 pm, enigma wrote:

Tom Enright wrote

ups.com:

So you do not support "a woman's right to choose"?
Correct? Otherwise, you would support it for all people,
not just half the population.

of course. the man had the right to choose to keep his pants
on. if a man *chooses* to have unprotected sex, he *has* made
a choice. if that choice produces a child, he has no right to
whine & shirk the financial responsibility for raising that
child.

No, I'm talking about after he has sex. Just like the woman has a
right, he should too. Sometimes with equality comes responsibility.

When you come back to us with a diagnosis of pregnancy, you can talk of
equality.

Banty

In article ,
says...

On Nov 15, 9:04 pm, Rosalie B. wrote:
Tom Enright wrote:
On Nov 14, 12:44 pm, Banty wrote:
In article om, Tom Enright
says...

Wrong, there is pay and reward for slavery. A slave receives food,
shelter and basic medical care. A slaveowner does not want his slave
to die, as he has spent money to purchase that slave. That is why in
the southern US in the 19th century Irish immigrants were often given
the most dangerous jobs. You wouldn't risk a slave . Slaves cost
money, the Irish are free.

Leaving aside this idea that supporting one's own child has no reward
(amazing...), you can think of it as a fine or payment for damages caused.
Not
slavery; something owed that could have been avoided. Certainly in this kind
of
case.

Isn't that the entire point of this thread? Women have the right to
avoid parenthood, shouldn't men have the same right?

Men absolutely have the right to avoid parenthood. All they have to
do is abstain from sex with a woman. Or use contraception.

Of course, but I'm talking about after sex. The rights of men and
women should be equal. What a woman decides to do with her body is
her 100% her choice and 100% her responsbility. To make someone else
responsible for her choices is irrational.

This is one place where my Banty's Life Fact of Life #1 come in.

"People are not obliged to act in your interests."

Once someone does something that is may be undone, or takes a risk, everyone
after that is not obligated to that person to fix it up or undo it.

If you didn't do you job one day, would you come back the next day and yell at
the guy that didn't do twice the work to cover you? He could have, you know.

Once you set up a situation like impregnanting someone, what happens after that
depends not just on your little plot in the world. There are imperatives and
intersts other than your little self. Maybe the woman finds she can't go
through with an abortion, whatever she thought before she was actually in the
situation. Maybe she finds that her family is so strongly opposed she'd lose
those connections. Maybe she decides this is one chance in life to have a child
(thought she was sterile, or she's in her forties). Maybe she decides her
obligation is to the helpless life within in her and not *your* capable self.

These may be good, bad, neutral, fair, or unfair, but someone who thinks that,
if they risk something and get themselves into a bind, everyone *else* who
possibly could patch it up for him, is obligated to, hasnt' grown up yet. It's
not abortion, or feminism, or a plot agaisnt him, it's *life*.

And the equality arguments you make fail, and will always fail, because of the
esential fact that WOMEN GET PREGNANT AND NOT MEN.

Banty

wrote:

On Nov 15, 9:04 pm, Rosalie B. wrote:
Tom Enright wrote:
On Nov 14, 12:44 pm, Banty wrote:
In article om, Tom Enright
says...

Wrong, there is pay and reward for slavery. A slave receives food,
shelter and basic medical care. A slaveowner does not want his slave
to die, as he has spent money to purchase that slave. That is why in
the southern US in the 19th century Irish immigrants were often given
the most dangerous jobs. You wouldn't risk a slave . Slaves cost
money, the Irish are free.

Leaving aside this idea that supporting one's own child has no reward
(amazing...), you can think of it as a fine or payment for damages caused. Not
slavery; something owed that could have been avoided. Certainly in this kind of
case.

Isn't that the entire point of this thread? Women have the right to
avoid parenthood, shouldn't men have the same right?

No - that's not it. The only choice to avoid parenthood is not to
have sex. Once you have sex with another person of the opposite sex,
the choice to avoid parenthood depends SOLEY on CHANCE. If the
roulette wheel stops on pregnancy, there's no more choice.

Men absolutely have the right to avoid parenthood. All they have to
do is abstain from sex with a woman. Or use contraception.

Of course, but I'm talking about after sex. The rights of men and
women should be equal. What a woman decides to do with her body is
her 100% her choice and 100% her responsbility. To make someone else
responsible for her choices is irrational.

Women can avoid parenthood in the same way - abstain from sex or use
contraception. If a man and a woman have sex and the contraception
fails (or the man forces the woman and she doesn't have a chance to
use protection), then they both have a responsibility to the resulting
child, because they were both involved in creating said child.

(or the woman lies and says she is on BC or cannot get pregnant)

Or simply is mistaken about whether she can get pregnant. Or because
the man lies and says he is sterile.

No, their responsibilities are not equal, because their rights are not
equal. Equal responsibility cannot exist with unequal rights. When
men are granted equality with women than you can make that statement.

Their rights are equal BECAUSE their responsibilities are equal. They
are both responsible for having sex.

The only option open to a woman at this point is to have the baby or
to have an abortion. But for many women both abortion and
contraception are against their religion. Since she carries the child
in pregnancy (men don't have the option to do that even if they wanted
to), she gets to say whether she has an abortion or not.

No, the woman can have an abortion, deliver the baby and keep the
child, put the child-up for adoption, raise the child on her own,
expect the government to pay for the child, expect the man to
pay...etc.

The only option for the woman is to have the baby or to have the
abortion. The support options are not relevant. If she has a severe
health problem and will die if she carries the baby to term, she has a
choice of whether to continue her life by having an abortion or to die
and leave a baby to the world.

The man's choice is gone, once he has sex with her and she conceives.
It will do you no good to whine and complain about slavery. You had a
chance to make a choice and you blew it.

"The man's choice is gone" only because you say "it's gone."
Resolving the problem is simple, just agree that men and women have
equal rights and equal responsibilities. If a man chooses not to be a
parent, not to have responsibility he can decide that, just as the
woman can. Isn't that what "pro-choice" is all about? *

No that's not it. But you are right in that pro-choice is ONLY for
women. A man's choice was at the initial point of having sex. Men
have the choice to have sex or not.

In article , Rosalie B. says...

wrote:


"The man's choice is gone" only because you say "it's gone."
Resolving the problem is simple, just agree that men and women have
equal rights and equal responsibilities. If a man chooses not to be a
parent, not to have responsibility he can decide that, just as the
woman can. Isn't that what "pro-choice" is all about? *

No that's not it. But you are right in that pro-choice is ONLY for
women. A man's choice was at the initial point of having sex. Men
have the choice to have sex or not.

And whatever the available choices, in *any* case, the woman have consequences
to herself.

What Tom wants, in the name of equality, is unequal. His wants the man with
*no* consequences to himself.

It can't be completely equal, because we're biological beings; we're not living
on a mathematical plane.

Banty