Dealing with death

I know that rationally the
kids know that this will happen, and sometimes they hint at the subject
("How long do dogs usually live? Can a dog live to 20? to 18? Is our
dog's mom still alive?" etc.), but I'm so afraid that if I'm completely
frank with them that the kids, who sometimes think too much about things, if
you know what I mean, will spend th next three (?) years dreading his death
instead of enjoying him. Any insights you might be willing to give would
be greatly appreciated.


Julie, I believe that it is important to answer their questions -- and the
answers don't have to be the DEFINITIVE ones that you or I would want, but
honest ones. "How long do dogs usually live? Dogs like ours sometimes live to
be about 14, but I'm not sure. That's why we try to keep him healthy as we
can, and enjoy him as much as we can." I can only tell you what I'd be saying
-- "I wish I knew just how long anyone or anything would live, sometimes, but
then I'd be thinking about it like a birthday or holiday, counting down the
days, and I don't want to live like that." and "It's okay to sometimes think
about our dog dying, or grandma or grandpa, but I think it's good to think more
about the fun and good stuff... I think about losing our dog, and I know I'll
be sad, but I don't have to be sad now..." I don't think you ever want to tell
them they shouldn't think about things, because then they WILL, but they'll
learn to not tell you. If they seem to dwell on something, "push at it" to
find out why... "Why do you ask me about the dog or dying or (whatever) every
night before you go to bed?" Or..."Did something happen that makes you worry
about death?" And share your own thoughts and feelings, where appropriate --
I'd be telling 7 year olds that I sometimes think about losing people I love,
but I already have, and I know we feel really bad at first, but then the bad
feelings kind of get less, and the good memories take over. And sometimes,
when I think about someone I lost, or about losing someone -- I feel very sad,
but that feeling doesn't last forever. And most importantly to me, knowing
that I feel very sad about losses means that I have the good feelings about
that person, which is really a nice thing to have...
Hope this helps..
Grandmom Gwen

I'm so sorry to hear about your dog. That's such a difficult thing to go
through.

I hope your throat is feeling better.

Thank you Julie. To make matters much worse, my cousin was killed in a very
violent car accident yesterday afternoon so we are grieving his death now as
well. My family's very close and we grew up more like brother and sister than
cousins so it has hit me very hard. He was only 30.

Andrea
twin girls-Madison & Jordan
4 yrs. old

I'm so sorry to hear about your dog. That's such a difficult thing to go
through.

I hope your throat is feeling better.

Thank you Julie. To make matters much worse, my cousin was killed in a very
violent car accident yesterday afternoon so we are grieving his death now as
well. My family's very close and we grew up more like brother and sister than
cousins so it has hit me very hard. He was only 30.

Andrea
twin girls-Madison & Jordan
4 yrs. old

Gwen --

Thanks so much for answering my questions. I really appreciate it, and yes,
it is very helpful.

The only death we've had in the family since the kids were born has been my
grandmother, who died when the kids were only 3 months old, so of course
they had no awareness. They're not fixated on death, but one of my two gets
teary-eyed every time someone mentions someone going away to college (!),
and I am fearful that she would get fretful and fixate similarly on death if
we delve too deeply into the topic.

Again, thank you.

Julie
Mom to Erica & Chris, 07/97 (one of whom wants to attend college but live at
home while doing so!).

"GwenO MS" wrote in message
...
I know that rationally the
kids know that this will happen, and sometimes they hint at the subject
("How long do dogs usually live? Can a dog live to 20? to 18? Is our
dog's mom still alive?" etc.), but I'm so afraid that if I'm completely
frank with them that the kids, who sometimes think too much about things,
if
you know what I mean, will spend th next three (?) years dreading his
death
instead of enjoying him. Any insights you might be willing to give
would
be greatly appreciated.


Julie, I believe that it is important to answer their questions -- and the
answers don't have to be the DEFINITIVE ones that you or I would want, but
honest ones. "How long do dogs usually live? Dogs like ours sometimes
live to
be about 14, but I'm not sure. That's why we try to keep him healthy as
we
can, and enjoy him as much as we can." I can only tell you what I'd be
saying
-- "I wish I knew just how long anyone or anything would live, sometimes,
but
then I'd be thinking about it like a birthday or holiday, counting down
the
days, and I don't want to live like that." and "It's okay to sometimes
think
about our dog dying, or grandma or grandpa, but I think it's good to think
more
about the fun and good stuff... I think about losing our dog, and I know
I'll
be sad, but I don't have to be sad now..." I don't think you ever want to
tell
them they shouldn't think about things, because then they WILL, but
they'll
learn to not tell you. If they seem to dwell on something, "push at it"
to
find out why... "Why do you ask me about the dog or dying or (whatever)
every
night before you go to bed?" Or..."Did something happen that makes you
worry
about death?" And share your own thoughts and feelings, where
appropriate --
I'd be telling 7 year olds that I sometimes think about losing people I
love,
but I already have, and I know we feel really bad at first, but then the
bad
feelings kind of get less, and the good memories take over. And
sometimes,
when I think about someone I lost, or about losing someone -- I feel very
sad,
but that feeling doesn't last forever. And most importantly to me,
knowing
that I feel very sad about losses means that I have the good feelings
about
that person, which is really a nice thing to have...
Hope this helps..
Grandmom Gwen

Gwen --

Thanks so much for answering my questions. I really appreciate it, and yes,
it is very helpful.

The only death we've had in the family since the kids were born has been my
grandmother, who died when the kids were only 3 months old, so of course
they had no awareness. They're not fixated on death, but one of my two gets
teary-eyed every time someone mentions someone going away to college (!),
and I am fearful that she would get fretful and fixate similarly on death if
we delve too deeply into the topic.

Again, thank you.

Julie
Mom to Erica & Chris, 07/97 (one of whom wants to attend college but live at
home while doing so!).

"GwenO MS" wrote in message
...
I know that rationally the
kids know that this will happen, and sometimes they hint at the subject
("How long do dogs usually live? Can a dog live to 20? to 18? Is our
dog's mom still alive?" etc.), but I'm so afraid that if I'm completely
frank with them that the kids, who sometimes think too much about things,
if
you know what I mean, will spend th next three (?) years dreading his
death
instead of enjoying him. Any insights you might be willing to give
would
be greatly appreciated.


Julie, I believe that it is important to answer their questions -- and the
answers don't have to be the DEFINITIVE ones that you or I would want, but
honest ones. "How long do dogs usually live? Dogs like ours sometimes
live to
be about 14, but I'm not sure. That's why we try to keep him healthy as
we
can, and enjoy him as much as we can." I can only tell you what I'd be
saying
-- "I wish I knew just how long anyone or anything would live, sometimes,
but
then I'd be thinking about it like a birthday or holiday, counting down
the
days, and I don't want to live like that." and "It's okay to sometimes
think
about our dog dying, or grandma or grandpa, but I think it's good to think
more
about the fun and good stuff... I think about losing our dog, and I know
I'll
be sad, but I don't have to be sad now..." I don't think you ever want to
tell
them they shouldn't think about things, because then they WILL, but
they'll
learn to not tell you. If they seem to dwell on something, "push at it"
to
find out why... "Why do you ask me about the dog or dying or (whatever)
every
night before you go to bed?" Or..."Did something happen that makes you
worry
about death?" And share your own thoughts and feelings, where
appropriate --
I'd be telling 7 year olds that I sometimes think about losing people I
love,
but I already have, and I know we feel really bad at first, but then the
bad
feelings kind of get less, and the good memories take over. And
sometimes,
when I think about someone I lost, or about losing someone -- I feel very
sad,
but that feeling doesn't last forever. And most importantly to me,
knowing
that I feel very sad about losses means that I have the good feelings
about
that person, which is really a nice thing to have...
Hope this helps..
Grandmom Gwen

Wow, your post and Shirley's in the same day (well, for me anyway). I know
what you're talking about. My kids are almost 4. Our Newfoundland dog is
almost 10, as is our rescued Greyhound. My cat is nearly 17 years old. I
know that someday in the pretty near future, the pets are going to start
going.

I have no advice, but will be very interested to read the rest of this
thread. Loss of a pet can be worse in some ways to a child than a person.
I still remember painfully well when at 13 my beloved Guinea Pig died.
Thinking back, I think my parents did all the "right" things. Lots of
sympathy, hugs and kisses... we had a formal burying. I still remember the
love that I had for that animal!

Hopefully, at the age of 4 your kids will be able to bounce back quickly. I
remember a couple years ago when my uncle died. My cousin has twin boys who
are 10 months younger than Charlie and Jenna. The boys asked quite
frequently (they would have been about 3) where was Papa. They seemed to
sense that people were upset, but they were very resilient. Now (sadly,
because he was such a truly wonderful man), they hardly ask about Papa
anymore :~(

I think at this age, it may be harder on us adults. Good luck with this
difficult situation.

Lynn (Mommy to Charlie and Jenna 8/30/00)

"Andrea" wrote in message
...
Hi Everyone-

Last month our precious Lab died suddenly while the girls and I were in
Virginia visiting my parents. We are not really sure what happened to her.
She
was almost 10 years old, which is kind of old for a Lab, but not ancient.
DH
said that she stopped eating her food a couple days before she died. On
the
first day he thought maybe she was just missing the girls and me, but
after the
second day of not eating he made an appt. to take her to the vet, but she
died
in her sleep the night before the appt. She didn't show any other sign of
being
sick or hurt so we are not really sure why she died.

DH and I are absolutely heartbroken about her death. I told the girls
while we
were still in Virginia that Dixie had died and that we didn't why she had
died,
but that she was an old dog. They didn't seem upset about it, but ever
since
then Madison continues to bring up Dixie's death. We are open with
answering
her questions, but mostly she just makes statements about it.

Ten days ago I had a tonsillectomy and have been having a rough time since
then. I was in lots of pain for several days after the surgery and was in
bed
almost all the time. Then just when I was starting to feel better I
started
hemorrhaging one night and had to be taken to the ER where they did
emergency
surgery to stop the bleeding and I was also admitted to the hospital for
one
night. That second surgery and losing so much blood put me back into bed.
Needless to say I haven't been eating much *at all* because it's just been
too
painful.

In the last 10 days the girls have been shuffled between relatives while I
recuperate and I'm sure the whole thing's been very confusing for them.
Now we
think that Madison thinks I'm going to die because I haven't been eating
and
I've been in bed for so long. Her aunt told my DH that Madison kept
bringing up
Dixie's death and how Dixie stopped eating and then died. Since then we've
been
trying to reassure her that I'm going to be fine, but I really don't know
how
to explain Dixie's death to her and reassure her that I'm not going to
die, in
a way that will make sense to her.

Since our dog died while we were gone, DH buried her before we returned so
we
didn't have a funeral service for her. In hindsight I see that we should
have
had a little prayer service for her after we returned from Virginia so
that the
girls could have had some closure.

Any advice on how to explain all this and reassure a 4 year old would be
greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Andrea
twin girls-Madison & Jordan
4 yrs. old

Wow, your post and Shirley's in the same day (well, for me anyway). I know
what you're talking about. My kids are almost 4. Our Newfoundland dog is
almost 10, as is our rescued Greyhound. My cat is nearly 17 years old. I
know that someday in the pretty near future, the pets are going to start
going.

I have no advice, but will be very interested to read the rest of this
thread. Loss of a pet can be worse in some ways to a child than a person.
I still remember painfully well when at 13 my beloved Guinea Pig died.
Thinking back, I think my parents did all the "right" things. Lots of
sympathy, hugs and kisses... we had a formal burying. I still remember the
love that I had for that animal!

Hopefully, at the age of 4 your kids will be able to bounce back quickly. I
remember a couple years ago when my uncle died. My cousin has twin boys who
are 10 months younger than Charlie and Jenna. The boys asked quite
frequently (they would have been about 3) where was Papa. They seemed to
sense that people were upset, but they were very resilient. Now (sadly,
because he was such a truly wonderful man), they hardly ask about Papa
anymore :~(

I think at this age, it may be harder on us adults. Good luck with this
difficult situation.

Lynn (Mommy to Charlie and Jenna 8/30/00)

"Andrea" wrote in message
...
Hi Everyone-

Last month our precious Lab died suddenly while the girls and I were in
Virginia visiting my parents. We are not really sure what happened to her.
She
was almost 10 years old, which is kind of old for a Lab, but not ancient.
DH
said that she stopped eating her food a couple days before she died. On
the
first day he thought maybe she was just missing the girls and me, but
after the
second day of not eating he made an appt. to take her to the vet, but she
died
in her sleep the night before the appt. She didn't show any other sign of
being
sick or hurt so we are not really sure why she died.

DH and I are absolutely heartbroken about her death. I told the girls
while we
were still in Virginia that Dixie had died and that we didn't why she had
died,
but that she was an old dog. They didn't seem upset about it, but ever
since
then Madison continues to bring up Dixie's death. We are open with
answering
her questions, but mostly she just makes statements about it.

Ten days ago I had a tonsillectomy and have been having a rough time since
then. I was in lots of pain for several days after the surgery and was in
bed
almost all the time. Then just when I was starting to feel better I
started
hemorrhaging one night and had to be taken to the ER where they did
emergency
surgery to stop the bleeding and I was also admitted to the hospital for
one
night. That second surgery and losing so much blood put me back into bed.
Needless to say I haven't been eating much *at all* because it's just been
too
painful.

In the last 10 days the girls have been shuffled between relatives while I
recuperate and I'm sure the whole thing's been very confusing for them.
Now we
think that Madison thinks I'm going to die because I haven't been eating
and
I've been in bed for so long. Her aunt told my DH that Madison kept
bringing up
Dixie's death and how Dixie stopped eating and then died. Since then we've
been
trying to reassure her that I'm going to be fine, but I really don't know
how
to explain Dixie's death to her and reassure her that I'm not going to
die, in
a way that will make sense to her.

Since our dog died while we were gone, DH buried her before we returned so
we
didn't have a funeral service for her. In hindsight I see that we should
have
had a little prayer service for her after we returned from Virginia so
that the
girls could have had some closure.

Any advice on how to explain all this and reassure a 4 year old would be
greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Andrea
twin girls-Madison & Jordan
4 yrs. old

A couple of 'new' thoughts to add here. Since I just bought one for a hostess
gift (we had an interesting discussion on the topic about a month ago), there
are WONDERFUL books for you or grandparents or parents and kids to fill in
about family history, memories, events, etc. Because it's too late to do one
with my own mother for her grandchildren or great grandkids, I feel like we're
missing something important in our family history. My MIL is so incapacitated,
that not much is remembered any more. So I need to do MY OWN and get one from
my husband for the kids and grandkids. This isn't just a 'family tree' but
things like how we met, the pets we had when we were young, what we liked and
disliked in school, favorite foods, how we celebrated holidays...etc. As a
therapist, I almost always do a 'genogram' with clients, and I'm amazed at the
amount of information folks just 'don't know' about family history (good
insight into why we have the feelings and behaviors that bring us to therapy!).
The other (unrelated) thought is about all the pets we've had over the
years, and as much as we loved them, when the kids grew up and left home, we
had four dogs -- so we could have been 'footloose and fancy free' but had four
pets depending on us for companionship and care. I used to say, "when the last
dog goes...no more pets!" With each death, we were grief-stricken, and there
was no sense of 'counting down to freedom from pet-obligation' but still, in
the back of our heads, we knew we'd be more free to travel, stay out for a long
day, etc. So, the last dog died, and we had a long period of grieving (she
died unexpectedly, and a horrible death). We both thought the extreme sadness
was a result of the sudden loss. BUT...eventually, we realized that we
couldn't stand a house without a dog! So we made a decision to get one small
enough to travel with us (we vowed to NEVER leave an animal in a kennel again
-- our last dog died of kennel cough acquired in an excellent boarding kennel,
with strict rules about innoculations, etc), so we ended up with the funniest,
most enjoyable, human-like dog we've ever had. I call him my "change-of-life"
dog. He's a Border Terrior and I do sometimes thing about his life-expectancy,
and how much we'd miss him... this is a breed known to have a higher death rate
from traffic accidents than natural causes -- they are 'runners' so we have an
electric fence AND a chain link fence, and he's NEVER allowed off our premises
without a leash! So it's not just kids who worry about losing a pet...it's
natural about anything you love (or anyONE), but we need to tell the kids that
although we have these thoughts, we don't dwell on them...we enjoy the
day-to-day experiences with those we love!
Grandmom Gwen

A couple of 'new' thoughts to add here. Since I just bought one for a hostess
gift (we had an interesting discussion on the topic about a month ago), there
are WONDERFUL books for you or grandparents or parents and kids to fill in
about family history, memories, events, etc. Because it's too late to do one
with my own mother for her grandchildren or great grandkids, I feel like we're
missing something important in our family history. My MIL is so incapacitated,
that not much is remembered any more. So I need to do MY OWN and get one from
my husband for the kids and grandkids. This isn't just a 'family tree' but
things like how we met, the pets we had when we were young, what we liked and
disliked in school, favorite foods, how we celebrated holidays...etc. As a
therapist, I almost always do a 'genogram' with clients, and I'm amazed at the
amount of information folks just 'don't know' about family history (good
insight into why we have the feelings and behaviors that bring us to therapy!).
The other (unrelated) thought is about all the pets we've had over the
years, and as much as we loved them, when the kids grew up and left home, we
had four dogs -- so we could have been 'footloose and fancy free' but had four
pets depending on us for companionship and care. I used to say, "when the last
dog goes...no more pets!" With each death, we were grief-stricken, and there
was no sense of 'counting down to freedom from pet-obligation' but still, in
the back of our heads, we knew we'd be more free to travel, stay out for a long
day, etc. So, the last dog died, and we had a long period of grieving (she
died unexpectedly, and a horrible death). We both thought the extreme sadness
was a result of the sudden loss. BUT...eventually, we realized that we
couldn't stand a house without a dog! So we made a decision to get one small
enough to travel with us (we vowed to NEVER leave an animal in a kennel again
-- our last dog died of kennel cough acquired in an excellent boarding kennel,
with strict rules about innoculations, etc), so we ended up with the funniest,
most enjoyable, human-like dog we've ever had. I call him my "change-of-life"
dog. He's a Border Terrior and I do sometimes thing about his life-expectancy,
and how much we'd miss him... this is a breed known to have a higher death rate
from traffic accidents than natural causes -- they are 'runners' so we have an
electric fence AND a chain link fence, and he's NEVER allowed off our premises
without a leash! So it's not just kids who worry about losing a pet...it's
natural about anything you love (or anyONE), but we need to tell the kids that
although we have these thoughts, we don't dwell on them...we enjoy the
day-to-day experiences with those we love!
Grandmom Gwen

To make matters much worse, my cousin was killed in a very
violent car accident yesterday afternoon so we are grieving his death now as
well. My family's very close and we grew up more like brother and sister than
cousins so it has hit me very hard. He was only 30.

Oh my God, Andrea, that is horrible I am so very sorry about this tragic
loss. You and your family are in my prayers.

Ellen
--------
Erin 6/26/95
Bradley & Alex 10/5/00