Help! Toddler left in car question

"P. Tierney" wrote in message
news:B6SUd.77573$tl3.5658@attbi_s02...

"nimue" wrote in message
...
snip

P. Tierney

So you would leave your 2 year old alone in the car, out of your
sight, for
15-20 minutes?

My first post in this thread on the subject indicated that I would
not, of course. I've not seen a single parent (or otherwise) on this
newsgroup supporting such an idea.

Okay. I just wanted to make that clear. I just spoke to my friend and
she
EXPLODED all over me and didn't want to hear it. It was very unpleasant.
I
was surprised she called me today -- I wasn't expecting to hear from her
until tomorrow at the earliest. Anyway, she sees NOTHING wrong with what
she did and she got VERY angry. FURIOUS. I tried very hard to be mild
and
caring, but no matter what I said, she just reacted and got angrier and
angrier. It was very unpleasant and I am feeling kind of down about it
now.

It's hard to say from a distance, but regardless of how you
expressed yourself, the other parent may have considered it
demeaning or patronizing.

I would stick to just doing the right thing instead of saying it.
You can't get her to change with your words, I don't think, but
in the same situation in the future, I'd insist on staying by the car
and, if asked why, I might say, "Look, it's the law that we can't
leave kids in the car in this state, so I can't check the property with
you. You go ahead."

I agree. You can't go back in time of course, but that's what I would have
done the first time it happened. It's pretty much impossible to tell
someone that they are a bad parent, no matter how lovingly you try to do it,
without them getting angry and defensive. It's the kind of conversation
that you don't have unless you think it really is important enough to lose
the friendship over.

That said, just because she was defensive when she was put on the spot, does
not mean that she didn't hear you. She might very well stop doing it
because of what you said.

And finally, please don't write off the friendship just yet. You
embarrassed her. It's natural for her to act combatatively. Call her again
in a few days to chat about something else. Don't mention this again. Or
if you do, just apologize for the way it came out. There is no need to
reiterate the message or to make her admit you're right.

I was once on the opposite end of a similar situation. DD is 9. I
mentioned to a friend that I thought when she was 10, she'd be old enough to
stay home alone if I ran to the local grocery store or post office (these
are both less than 5 minutes away, and as it's not where I do my main
grocery shopping, a trip to either place is normally less than 20 minutes
round trip). She told me that if I were to do that, I need to tell DD not
to tell anyone, as it is illegal and CPS could get involved if anyone ever
found out.

I was *flabbergasted*!!! I've always thought of myself as a conscientious
parent, to think that I'd even *considered* doing something illegal....
Well, there are a lot of things that are bad parenting that are not illegal,
so to do something *so* bad that there was a law against it... So I
immediately began researching state law, and after an exhaustive search
discovered that there is no stated minimum age for a child to be left alone.
After that I started searching local statutes and even social services
rules. The only thing I ever found were "guidelines." One place did say no
child should be left alone at all until they are 12. Another said that
children ages 8-10 could be left alone for up to 1.5 hours in the daytime.

Anyway, all this is beside the point. The *point* is that I know how it
made me feel, so I can understand how this mom might have felt.

Bizby

dragonlady wrote:
In article ,
"nimue" wrote:

Okay. I just wanted to make that clear. I just spoke to my friend
and she
EXPLODED all over me and didn't want to hear it. It was very
unpleasant. I
was surprised she called me today -- I wasn't expecting to hear
from her
until tomorrow at the earliest. Anyway, she sees NOTHING wrong
with what
she did and she got VERY angry. FURIOUS. I tried very hard to be
mild and
caring, but no matter what I said, she just reacted and got angrier
and
angrier. It was very unpleasant and I am feeling kind of down
about it now.

When my kids get this angry at me when I call them on something, I
know
it's because they KNOW they were in the wrong, and are angry at
having
been caught . . .

When *I* get this angry at dh, my mom, etc., over something it's
because I know I was wrong and I'm scrambling to mount a defense. Now
that I'm aware of it, I've been working on it. IME the knee-jerk,
furious, "I've done NOTHING wrong, how DARE you suggest it" response is
compensating for the suspicion in one's own mind that one has made a
mistake.

dragonlady has hit the nail on the head here.

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you
care

"P. Tierney" wrote in message
news:WDNUd.76846$tl3.2376@attbi_s02...

"nimue" wrote in message
...
Stephanie Stowe wrote:
"Cathy Kearns" wrote in message
om...

"toypup" wrote in message
om...

"Billy bob" billybob@bobshome wrote in message
u...
Its takes one minute for someone to take your child. (yup less then
that
even)

I think there are a lot of situations reported where the child was
unintentionally taken by a car thief. You know, the child was in
the back
seat and the thief didn't know it.

Define "a lot". And what percentage are car jackings (where a parent
was in the car or standing by the car) versus parents wandering away.
From what I've heard on the news, I'd guess one or two a year in the
entire US, and I'd say most of those are car jackings. Note, I'm not
saying you should leave children in cars, I'm just tired of folks
fear mongering about imagined dangers, instead of the obvious ones,
like
a child overheating in a parked car.



The car theft thing is on my mind as part of why I do not leave the
kids in the car, as if I needed too many reasons. For me, it is not
so much the likelihood, which is pathetically small. But *what if?*
As I said to my DH, who just paled upon thinking about it, the
consequences are so horrifyingly small that a vanishingly small
chance is just not small enough.

THAT is good parenting. In fact, THAT is a good way to think in general.
This is why my friend gets into trouble so often. She just doesn't think
of
the worst possible consequences.

If you go by the worst possible consequences, then how can you
do *anything*. I wouldn't walk down the sidewalk with my kid
that ruled me -- after all, a car *could* veer off the road and take
us all out, or an adductor could easily knock me unconscious with a
blunt object, taking my kids away. It does happen, you know.

She just thinks the world is a much safer place than I do.

I know it is a pretty safe place. Things will always happen
to people somewhere, here included. But a bit of perspective
is always a good idea.


P.
Tierney


Everybody places the line in a different place. It is certainly not good for
anyone to live in such fear that you are not really living. This one is a no
brainer for me since leaving the child in the car is not a super good idea
in many instances for everyone.

"Cathy Kearns" wrote in message
om...

"Stephanie Stowe" wrote in message
...

"Cathy Kearns" wrote in message
om...

"toypup" wrote in message
om...

"Billy bob" billybob@bobshome wrote in message
u...
Its takes one minute for someone to take your child. (yup less then
that
even)

I think there are a lot of situations reported where the child was
unintentionally taken by a car thief. You know, the child was in the
back
seat and the thief didn't know it.

Define "a lot". And what percentage are car jackings (where a parent
was in the car or standing by the car) versus parents wandering away.
From what I've heard on the news, I'd guess one or two a year in the
entire US, and I'd say most of those are car jackings. Note, I'm not
saying you should leave children in cars, I'm just tired of folks fear
mongering about imagined dangers, instead of the obvious ones, like
a child overheating in a parked car.



The car theft thing is on my mind as part of why I do not leave the kids
in
the car, as if I needed too many reasons. For me, it is not so much the
likelihood, which is pathetically small. But *what if?* As I said to my
DH,
who just paled upon thinking about it, the consequences are so
horrifyingly
small that a vanishingly small chance is just not small enough.

That's a good reason for not leaving your child. You acknowledge that
it's
vanishingly small, but not small enough. I can certainly see that.

I am with you on making things seem what they are not. I do not see the
value in it. But even if temperature is not a problem, I still would not
leave my kids.

I'm just against the argument of not leaving your kids because "there are
a lot of situation reported where the child was unintentionally taken..."
It's too easy to disprove, there aren't "a lot", so it's not persuasive.


I do not disagree with you. Just lending my thinking.

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 04:00:08 GMT, "P. Tierney"
scribbled:


A blanket rule for the individual family, I meant to say.

It is a blanket rule for us. My dh has left dd1 in the car, and he
knows I don't like it. I don't lecture or get mad, but he agrees he
shouldn't. If it's just to appease me, that's fine by me!

But
some have seemed to imply that no one should ever do it.

Tbh, I don't think it's a good idea. But I acknowledge my feelings
are based on my own (dis)comfort level. I guess those that choose to
do it will just have to live with the fact that people don't think
they should do it. Just like a million other things we all choose to
do wrt our kids.

Or maybe it was stated, I'd have to go back and check.

And the "one minute" thing isn't mine, but someone else's.
I realized, however, that it's also my rough limit, depending
on the circumstances -- give or take.

Okay.

Nan


I have a tendency to make myself "rules" or what really amount to habits, so
that I can think about them in the calm and apply them in the busy. Most of
the time when I might be evaluating the safety of leaving my children in the
car are times when my judgement is less good. So basically, when we are out
and about, I simply do not leave them in the car, period. I make a decision
is the thing I want to do important enough that I will wake DD (I don't even
consider it if DS is asleep) or not.

Now, where I live I have no doubts about the safety of leaving the kids in
the car for a couple of minutes in the driveway. When it comes right down to
it, I am faced with a situation in which I *must* leave on of the kids in
the car when both of them fall asleep in the car. I have to carry them in.
(You cannot wake up 4yo DS if has fallen all the way asleep. It is just Not
Possible.) My main concern is the e-brake letting go and the car careening
down the drive. But there does not seem much I can DO about it. If they both
fall asleep, and DD cannot walk up the stairs even if I woke her up, and DS
cannot be awakened....

SNIP

Actually, the gas station is one place I never leave kids in the car
(thank goodness for pay at the pump!) I've heard too many stories of
car-jackings, and gas stations seem to be the most popular locations.
And if I do leave kids in the car, I never leave the car running - that
really makes me paranoid, both from a car-jacking point, and from a
"what if the kid gets out of the carseat" point.

I've never heard of carjackings at gas stations, but at places like
stoplights. In the latter situation, the keys are in a running car,
making it possible. If you go pay for gas, you probably take your
keys with you. I do, at least. Anyway, I don't see how paying at
the pump would prevent a carjacking.



P. Tierney




Steph, the wacky Mom... I used to have a keyless entry doo dad for the car.
I would pull it off the ring, leave the car running (for heat or AC
depending) and lock the car with the keyless doo dad while pumping gas. And
I live in Fairfax VT. I do not do this in Fairfax, but I have done it in The
Big Town of Burlington!

P. Tierney wrote:
"Irene" wrote in message
oups.com...

Actually, the gas station is one place I never leave kids in the
car
(thank goodness for pay at the pump!) I've heard too many stories
of
car-jackings, and gas stations seem to be the most popular
locations.
And if I do leave kids in the car, I never leave the car running -
that
really makes me paranoid, both from a car-jacking point, and from a
"what if the kid gets out of the carseat" point.

I've never heard of carjackings at gas stations, but at places
like
stoplights. In the latter situation, the keys are in a running car,
making it possible. If you go pay for gas, you probably take your
keys with you. I do, at least. Anyway, I don't see how paying at
the pump would prevent a carjacking.


Maybe I just hear different news stories than you do? I think a lot of
people actually leave the car running when they get gas (even though
you aren't supposed to). Besides, you don't need keys to steal a car.
;-) I know that paying at the pump doesn't completely protect me from
carjacking, but at least it makes me feel better - especially since
it's less likely that someone could sneak into the car while I'm not
looking, and attack me when I get back in. We all have our areas of
paranoia - that's one of mine. ;-)

Irene

Stephanie Stowe wrote:
SNIP

Actually, the gas station is one place I never leave kids in the
car
(thank goodness for pay at the pump!) I've heard too many stories
of
car-jackings, and gas stations seem to be the most popular
locations.
And if I do leave kids in the car, I never leave the car running -
that
really makes me paranoid, both from a car-jacking point, and from
a
"what if the kid gets out of the carseat" point.

I've never heard of carjackings at gas stations, but at places
like
stoplights. In the latter situation, the keys are in a running
car,
making it possible. If you go pay for gas, you probably take your
keys with you. I do, at least. Anyway, I don't see how paying at
the pump would prevent a carjacking.



P. Tierney




Steph, the wacky Mom... I used to have a keyless entry doo dad for
the car.
I would pull it off the ring, leave the car running (for heat or AC
depending) and lock the car with the keyless doo dad while pumping
gas. And
I live in Fairfax VT. I do not do this in Fairfax, but I have done it
in The
Big Town of Burlington!

I'm not sure how old your kids are, but now that ds is big enough to
get out of his carseat on his own, there is *no way* I will leave him
in the car with it running longer than, say, to put the books in the
library drop. (It's a funky driveway - theoretically possible to do
without getting out, but not terribly easy to maneuver close enough so
I don't bother). Ds *knows* he's not to get out of the carseat when
the car is on, but if it's stopped and I'm out of my seat, he'll try to
push that limit.

Irene

Nikki wrote:
wrote:

Twenty minutes is way too long. Even if the temperature is fine,
there are no conceivable carjackers, and the car has been left so
it
is safe as houses, a small child waking up alone in a car would
probably be confused and scared.

bad parent alert

I'm very conscious of the weather so if it is warm I don't leave mine
in the
car at all. If it is to cold I don't either.

When we lived in the country I'd leave mine napping in the car for an
hour
or more. In town I've left Luke napping in the car for up to 30
minutes.
This Saturday we got back from an outing very late and Luke stayed
sleeping
in the car while I took Hunter in and put him in bed. That probably
took
15-20 minutes. Honestly, I'd probably leave him in there longer if
he was
sleeping but I'm afraid the neighbors would call the law. My drive
way goes
up and behind the house. Neither have shown the least bit of anxiety
if
they wake up in the car.

Okay, I'm probably overgeneralizing from my own experiences. My son
would be okay with waking up in the car and my not being there for a
minute or two, but if he woke up right after I went inside and then was
in the car alone for twenty minutes, it's highly likely he'd be
hysterical when I got back. Also, he's not a deep sleeper.

Anyway, that wouldn't really be *unsafe*, just very inconsiderate.
It'd be much more worrisome with a kid whose tendencies when left alone
ran more towards squirming out of the straps and playing with the gear
shift.

I don't know, I don't think cars are as unsafe as the official
bulletins say as long as you realize that they can heat up fast and so
on (I think the official rules/recommendations are pretty draconian to
try to reach people with no common sense at all). However, I'm very
sensitive to the fact that if I left my child alone in a car and any
kind of freak accident happened - meteor strike, whatever - I'd have to
contend not only with the sorrow of a freak accident but with the fact
that I might be criminally prosecuted.

Beth

Nikki wrote:
wrote:

Twenty minutes is way too long. Even if the temperature is fine,
there are no conceivable carjackers, and the car has been left so
it
is safe as houses, a small child waking up alone in a car would
probably be confused and scared.

bad parent alert

I'm very conscious of the weather so if it is warm I don't leave mine
in the
car at all. If it is to cold I don't either.

When we lived in the country I'd leave mine napping in the car for an
hour
or more. In town I've left Luke napping in the car for up to 30
minutes.
This Saturday we got back from an outing very late and Luke stayed
sleeping
in the car while I took Hunter in and put him in bed. That probably
took
15-20 minutes. Honestly, I'd probably leave him in there longer if
he was
sleeping but I'm afraid the neighbors would call the law. My drive
way goes
up and behind the house. Neither have shown the least bit of anxiety
if
they wake up in the car.

Heh, heh - when both of them are sleeping in the car in nice weather,
that's when I park in the garage and work in the front garden. ;-)
I'll run in the house for a few minutes (go to the bathroom, throw
perishables in the fridge, stuff like that) but not more than that.
I've never gotten any flack from the neighbors about the gardening -
actually, they usually tell me to take advantage of my break!

Irene