Sad story

Ilse Witch wrote:
It's a bizar catch 22: if only one of the midwifes would have accepted
her, her baby might have lived. But if not, she would most likely have
sued the midwife, indirectly sending insurance premiums rocketing and the
midwife out of business. Which the midwife probably realized and therefore
didn't accept her in the first place.

This is one thing that I've been thinking... People are probably
thinking that the midwives refused her out of fear of being sued. Well,
lawsuits don't happen as much in Canada as they do in the US (not sure
why - we just don't sue as much for some reason, even though we can), so
I just don't think that this was the reason. I would love to know the
reason, but I'm sure it probably wasn't that. Also, insurance rates
probably wouldn't have been affected as much, due to the huge behemoth
called health care.

It is really deeply sad for the mother (and father), and I hope she
manages to live with her decision in the long run. I know, there is no
guarantee that the baby would have lived in hospital, but I'm sure the
chances would have been greatly improved.

The whole thing is very sad. I wish we had more details. Would be
something to learn from.

OK. I can help jumping in.

Carol Ann writes:

: Because I am also one of those women who believes in using medical
: technology.

Even when medical studies show that it is inappropriate. Numerous
peer reviewed medical studies have shown that for a woman with no
known risks homebirth is always as safe, and sometimes safer than
hospital birth. Why rely on technology when it does not improve
outcome, but instead in some cases causes the outcome to be worse.

: I would not consider having a child without pain meds unless
: it was going to hurt my child.

Again, there are enough medical studies to show that pain meds do
just that. Lower apgar scores, more moribund behavior directly
after birth, more difficulty breastfeeding, as so on. These are
reasons enough for me (and thank god, for my wife, too)

: At 40, it's just too risky...IMHO.

Homebirth? Again, for a multipara with no contraindications, a
hospital birth at 40 is as risky or riskier than a homebirth.

Now, you still may personally feel more comfortable with a
hospital birth than a homebirth, but you can't use that reasons
to rationally justify it.

Larry

"Larry McMahan" wrote in message
...
Even when medical studies show that it is inappropriate. Numerous
peer reviewed medical studies have shown that for a woman with no
known risks homebirth is always as safe, and sometimes safer than
hospital birth.


Again, there are enough medical studies to show that pain meds do
just that. Lower apgar scores, more moribund behavior directly
after birth, more difficulty breastfeeding, as so on. These are
reasons enough for me (and thank god, for my wife, too)

: At 40, it's just too risky...IMHO.

Homebirth? Again, for a multipara with no contraindications, a
hospital birth at 40 is as risky or riskier than a homebirth.

Larrry, Larry... do you have any respectable cites for any of what you write
above?


Donna

"ModernMiko" wrote in message
...
"Iuil" wrote in message
...

"Carol Ann" wrote

I confess to being one of those women. I would NEVER consider
homebirth.


Can I ask why?

If it's because of the monitoring etc, you need someone to be actually
watching those monitors and prepared to act when necessary. I know one
woman whose baby died shortly after birth because, although she was in
hospital being continously monitored, no-one was actually reading the
monitor so when her baby did get intervention it was too late. And
despite
all the machines and doctors in the hospital, there was nothing that
could
be done for him :-(. Complacency can be just as fatal as anything else.

Jean


Unfortunately there can be bad outcome no matter which route you choose.
There are no guarantees in life. The best you can do is research options,
facilities, providers and go from there. I am like Carol Ann in that I do
not think I would ever have a homebirth. I completely support there being
a
choice but I think it's unfair to be looked down upon because I happen to
want to have my child in a hospital. I certainly would not look down on
someone who chose to have her child at home.

Exactly. And that's the feeling I get about a lot of the interventions. If
you accept them, you're somehow less of a woman or mother for doing
so-whatever the cause, whatever the reason. I don't think women should be
criticized for their choices. Especially when you may not know all the
story.

And, I don't think an OB should be required to take a patient for home birth
if he/she feels it's dangerous to the patient. There's a reason for
high-risk OB's and perinatologists-and that's because there are certain ob
situations which are out of the league for the typical OB. . I'm reasonably
certain no responsible OB or Midwife would take me as a home birth client
with my history. In fact, many OBs don't do high risk at all-or, as mine
does, does high-risk only with consultation with a perinatologist.

In this case, the mother was considered to be high risk enough that the OBs
and midwives who did home births didn't want to take the risk. I don't
think her choosing to ignore that advice and go with an unqualified person
is the fault of the OBs. They gave her their best judgement, and she refused
it.


--
JennL
DS 06/26/98
1 tiny angel 11/03
EDD December 4 2004

aka CatnipSlayer @ livin-it-up.net
--
Leader of the Cult of Worshippers of BiPolar Long-Haired Sexy Anime Guys
with Swords

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:18:41 -0400, "Donna"
wrote:
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!

Larrry, Larry... do you have any respectable cites for any of what you write
above?

www.homebirth.org.uk and www.aims.org.uk both have plenty cites for
the sort of things Larry has talked about.

Megan.
--
Seoras David Montgomery, 7 May 2003, 17 hours: sunrise to sunset (homebirth)

To e-mail use: megan at farr-montgomery dot com

The thing is, we don't know all the details. I can't imagine home birth being
soo important that I risk the life of my child, and possibly myself. I have had
5 children and 3 of those births were traumatic for me. I still would not
choose to do a homebirth. But..that is not saying I look down upon those who
do. I don't understand why she refused to listen the the dr's. I think it's
very sad her baby died, but this makes me very mad. Most moms would run out in
front of a bus to save their child, why not do a C-section if it was deemed
necessary? There are no guarantees in life--I realize that, but obviously a
C-section was necessary if the dr's thought so, and many midwives refused to
take her on. Sure you can deliver breech babies vaginally, and they can
survive( my grandma delivered a breech baby(my mom), vaginally, 61 yrs ago, ),
but when there is an increases risk for fetal mortality, why take that chance?
This is a human life we are talking about.

Show me where it is more safe to deliver a breech baby at home vaginally, vs'
in the hospital. I want to see the literature. Please post a link.. something.

Jolinda

Donna writes:

: "Larry McMahan" wrote in message
: ...
: Even when medical studies show that it is inappropriate. Numerous
: peer reviewed medical studies have shown that for a woman with no
: known risks homebirth is always as safe, and sometimes safer than
: hospital birth.

:
: Again, there are enough medical studies to show that pain meds do
: just that. Lower apgar scores, more moribund behavior directly
: after birth, more difficulty breastfeeding, as so on. These are
: reasons enough for me (and thank god, for my wife, too)
:
: : At 40, it's just too risky...IMHO.
:
: Homebirth? Again, for a multipara with no contraindications, a
: hospital birth at 40 is as risky or riskier than a homebirth.
:
: Larrry, Larry... do you have any respectable cites for any of what you write
: above?

You betch'ch, Donna. I would not make claims like that without!

Here, you can start with these, and when you work your way through
them I can give you some more. :-)

I'm sure other posters will also be willing to provide cites.

Happy reading,
Larry

Articles on the relative safety of homebirths attended by a Direct
Entry Midwife versus those attended by an OB in a hospital:

Abernathy, Thomas J and Dontia M Lentjes
"Planned and Unplanned Home Births and Hospital
Births in Calgary, Alberta, 1984-87", Public Health
Reports 104 373 (1989)
Planned home births: 61, Control group (Hospital): 33,777.
The article does not study neonatal mortality but relies on
other measures of birth outcome (Onset of respiration,
duration of labor, gestational age and birth weight)

Burnett IN, Claude A et al.
"Home Delivery and Neonatal Mortality in North
Carolina", J American Med. Assoc. 244 2741 (1980)
Planned home births attended by a midwife: 768, Control
group (Hospital) 242,245. Neonatal mortality: 4/ 1000
(12/1000 for the control group.

Campbell, Rona et al.
"Home Births in England and Wales, 1979: Perinatal
Mortality According to Intended Place of Delivery",
British Medical Journal 289 721 (1984)
lntended homebirths 5917, no control group,
NeonatalmorLality:4.1/1000.

Cunningham, John D
"Experiences of Australian Mothers who Gave Birth
Either at Home, at a Birth Centre, or in Hospital Labour
Wards", Soc. Sci. Med. 36 475 (1993)
The article studies the reported birth experiences of mothers
electing home births and compares them with mothers
electing births in other locations.

Declercq, Eugene R.
"Out-of-Hospital Births, U.S., 1978: Birth Weight and
Apgar Scores as Measures of Outcome", Public Health
Reports 99 63 (1984)
Midwife attended home births: 9,504, Control group
(Hospital): 3,268,805. The article doesn't use neonatal
mortality as a measure of birth outcome.

Durand, A. Mark
"The Safety of Home Birth: The Farm Study", Am. J
Public Health 82 450 (1992)
Midwife attended births: 1,707, Control group (Hospital):
14,033. Perinatal mortality 10/1000 (Control group
13/1000).

Fedrick, Jean and N R Butler
"Intended Place of Delivery and Perinatal Outcome",
British Medical Journal 763 (1978)
Home births: 156, Control group (Hospital): 14,033 Death
rate 8/1000 (Control group: 13/1000) The article concludes
that hospital births are safer than home births, however it
makes no accounting for birth attendant.

Hinds, M Ward, Gershon H Bergeisen and David T Allen
"Neonatal Outcome in Planned vs Unplanned
Out-of-Hospital Births in Kentucky", J. American Med.
Assoc. 253 1578 (1985)
Planned home births: 575, Control group unspecified.
Neonatal mortality: 4/1000 (Control group: 5/1000)

Mehl, Lewis E. et al.
"Outcomes of Elective Home Births: A Series of 1,146
Cases", J Reprod. Med. 19 281 (1977)
Perinatal mortality: 9.5/1000 (Control group: 20.3/1000)

Murphy, J F et al.
"Planned and Unplanned Deliveries at Home:
Implications of a Changing Ratio", British Medical
Journal 288 1429 (1984) Planned home births: 315, Control
group: 44,52 1, Neonatal mortality: 3.2/1000 (Control group:
10.7/1000)

Schneider, Dona
"Planned Out-of-Hospital Births, New Jersey,
1978-1980", Soc. Sci. Med. 23 1011 (1986)
Planned out-of-hospital births: 775. The article uses birth
weight as a measure of outcome. It examines the
demographic makeup of women electing home birth more
than it examines outcome.

Schramm, Wayne F et al.
"Neonatal Mortality in Missouri Home Births, 1978-84",
Am. J Public Health 77 930 (1987)
Planned, professional-attended home births: 1770. Neonatal
mortality: 5/1770 (Expected 3.92/1770)

Shearer, J M L
"Five Year Prospective Survey of Risk of Booking for a
Home Birth in Essex", British Medical Journal 291 1478
(1985)
Planned home births: 202, Control group (Hospital): 185. No
perinatal deaths in either group. Other factors show home
birth outcomes better than hospital births.

Shy, Kerkwood K., Floyd Frost and Jean Ullom
"Out-of-Hospital delivery in Washington State, 1975 to
1977", Am. J. Obtset. Gynecol. 137 547 (1980)
Home births: 1614, Control group: 157,868. Neonatal
mortality: 28/1614. The article concludes that home births
are more dangerous but doesn't account for birth attendant.
Of the 28 neonatal deaths, 15 were the result of prematurity,
Of these 12 births were unattended.

Sullivan, Deborah A. and Ruth Beeman
"Four Years' Experience with Home Birth by Licensed
Midwives in Arizona", Am. J Public Health 73 641 (1983)
The article traces the decline in the number of
complications in home births with time after Arizona began
licensing midwives.

Additional more general studies comparing the safety of home versus
hospital birth.

Janssen PA. Holt VL. Myers SJ
Licensed midwife-attended, out-of-hospital births in Washington
state: are they safe?
Birth. 21(3):141-8, 1994 Sep.

Woodcock HC. Read AW. Bower C. Stanley FJ. Moore DJ
A matched cohort study of planned home and hospital births
in Western Australia 1981-1987
Midwifery. 10(3):125-35, 1994 Sep.

Sakala C.
Health Policy Institute, Boston University, MA 02215
Midwifery care and out-of-hospital birth settings: how do they
reduce unnecessary cesarean section births?
Social Science & Medicine. 37(10):1233-50, 1993 Nov.

Declercq ER.
Merrimack College, North Andover, Massachusetts
Where babies are born and who attends their births: findings
from the revised 1989 United States Standard Certificate of Live Birth
Obstetrics & Gynecology. 81(6):997-1004, 1993 Jun.

van Steensel-Moll HA. van Duijn CM. Valkenburg HA. van Zanen GE.
Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, Erasmus University Medical
School, Rotterdam, The Netherlands Predominance of hospital deliveries
among children with acute lymphocytic leukemia:
speculations about neonatal exposure to fluorescent light
Cancer Causes & Control. 3(4):389-90, 1992 Jul.

Ford C. Iliffe S. Franklin O.
Department of Primary Health Care, Whittington Hospital, London
Outcome of planned home births in an inner city practice
BMJ. 303(6816):1517-9, 1991 Dec 14.

Mehl, L.E., Scientific Research on Childbirth Alternatives:
What It Tells Us About Hospital Practice, in Stewart & Stewart, eds.,
21st Century Obstetrics Now!, 2nd edition, Vol. 1, pp. 171-208,
NAPSAC International, Marble-IEIL 1978.

Outcomes of intended home births in nurse-midwifery practice:
a prospective descriptive study.
Murphy PA, Fullerton J
Obstet Gynecol 1998 Sep;92(3):461-470

Perinatal loss in planned and unplanned home birth. The Northern Region's
Perinatal Mortality Survey Coordinating Group. BMJ 1996;313:1306-9.

Home versus hospital deliveries: a prospective study on matched pairs.
Ackermann-Liebrich U, Voegli T, Guenther-Witt K, Kunz I, Zullig M, Schindler C,
et al. BMJ 1996;313:1313-8.

Outcome of planned home and planned hospital births in low risk pregnancies
in the Netherlands. Wiegers T A, Keirse M J N C, van der Zee J, Berghs G A H.
BMJ 1996;313:1309-13.

Prospective regional study of planned home birth. Davies J, Hey E, Reid W,
Young G.
BMJ 1996;313:1302-5.

"MCranEY05" wrote

Show me where it is more safe to deliver a breech baby at home vaginally,
vs'
in the hospital. I want to see the literature. Please post a link..
something.


Here's three to begin with:

http://www.aims.org.uk/Journal/Vol15...ryApproach.htm A
review of "A Day at the Breech" - a presentation given by the foremost
midwife in the UK pointing out the differences. Literature reference at the
end.

http://www.aims.org.uk/Journal/Vol14...BreechHome.htm Case
studies, again with references at end.

http://www.aims.org.uk/Journal/Vol12...swin2000.htm#1 A report on a study
comparing c/s vs managed vaginal delivery in hospital (*not* at home as is
commented on at the end)

HTH

Jean

"Iuil" wrote in message
...



"ModernMiko" wrote

Unfortunately there can be bad outcome no matter which route you choose.
There are no guarantees in life. The best you can do is research
options,
facilities, providers and go from there. I am like Carol Ann in that I
do
not think I would ever have a homebirth. I completely support there
being
a
choice but I think it's unfair to be looked down upon because I happen
to
want to have my child in a hospital. I certainly would not look down on
someone who chose to have her child at home.


Show me where I looked down on anyone? My DD was born in hospital, with
all
the technology available. But you can be damn sure that I made sure that
it
was being used properly!

Jean


That's the problem with the internet. I got a certain vibe from the way you
asked Carol Ann the question. If I was wrong, I apologize. Hard to tell when
you can't see facial expressions and hear someone.

--
JennL
DS 06/26/98
1 tiny angel 11/03
EDD December 4 2004

aka CatnipSlayer @ livin-it-up.net
--
Leader of the Cult of Worshippers of BiPolar Long-Haired Sexy Anime Guys
with Swords

I already did not want a homebirth but that is because I have only known 3
people to have homebirths and all but one had to be rushed to the hospital
due to complications and the 3rd should have been but refused it even though
she was hemoraging.. after that she was denied the option of a homebirth.

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Xavier due 10/17/04
"Carol Ann" wrote in message
news
: Sadly the baby had major complications during delivery and passed
away.
: How
: sad.
:
: Sad and so unnecessary. Unfortunately, it's these types of stories that
: people remember and think of when they hear the words homebirth and
midwife.
:
:
: JennP.

I confess to being one of those women. I would NEVER consider homebirth.


~Carol Ann
Mom to Morgan 3.24.04
http://tinyurl.com/2l78p Pictures