dumb things from DH's mouth

Robert Powell wrote:

We're simple not stupid. We love you, we want to help, but to do it
we need
your help.

Tell us what you want, we'll do it!

Tell us why you're doing something and we'll understand!

You get frustrated, we get frustrated. End the frustration cycle I
say,
parents of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your
frustrations!

Bob, do you think sometimes that men give up because they are told so
many times that they're doing something wrong? I've seen this with my
friends and relatives. "Well, I could unload the dishwasher for her,
but I'll just put something back in the wrong place and get yelled at,
and it's easier to avoid getting yelled at by not unloading the
dishwasher at all than it is to risk making a mistake and getting
yelled at..." Especially with men, because they hate to be yelled at
so much, I think it cuts men more deeply than we women realize.

I've made a serious effort since we first moved in together to make
sure that my husband doesn't get criticized for doing things around the
house. Whenever he does the slightest little thing, I practically
throw a ticker tape parade. If he puts something back in the wrong
place, so what? I'd rather have to hunt for the whisk a little than
empty the dishwasher myself! Consequently, I have a husband who does
the lion's share of the laundry, who cleans up the dinner dishes every
night, who picks up after himself (mostly), and who makes my life at
home easier instead of more difficult - even when I'm not pregnant!

I'm thinking of one woman in particular who I know, she criticizes
every little thing that her husband does - even washing his hands in
the kitchen sink! And consequently he doesn't help in the house - he
mows the lawn and does all the outdoor, garage type things, but I can't
see him ever vacuuming or doing laundry. She acts like he's a big kid
that she has to take care of, and she rarely acknowledges the things
that he *does* do for the two of them. It's very sad. Sometimes he
reminds me of a puppy that has been beaten... He walks on eggshells,
in constant fear that he's going to inadvertantly step in it again.

Anyway, this is pretty tangential to your post (which was lovely, by
the way, and very true), but I started musing...

Amy

snip
Bob, do you think sometimes that men give up because they are told so
many times that they're doing something wrong? I've seen this with my
friends and relatives. "Well, I could unload the dishwasher for her,
but I'll just put something back in the wrong place and get yelled at,
and it's easier to avoid getting yelled at by not unloading the
dishwasher at all than it is to risk making a mistake and getting
yelled at..." Especially with men, because they hate to be yelled at
so much, I think it cuts men more deeply than we women realize.
snip

Completely - I fall back on my analogy of being the ole family dog. If you
chastise the dog he won't do it again. If I'm told off for not mopping the
floor correctly, I won't do it again. It hurts to be told off by somebody
you love. If I'm told, "Thanks, I appreciate what you've done, but you've
missed the corners." I'll do it again and next time get the corners as well.

I've made a serious effort since we first moved in together to make
sure that my husband doesn't get criticized for doing things around the
house. Whenever he does the slightest little thing, I practically
throw a ticker tape parade. If he puts something back in the wrong
place, so what? I'd rather have to hunt for the whisk a little than
empty the dishwasher myself! Consequently, I have a husband who does
the lion's share of the laundry, who cleans up the dinner dishes every
night, who picks up after himself (mostly), and who makes my life at
home easier instead of more difficult - even when I'm not pregnant!

Sounds like your DH and I are cut from the same cloth or at least came from
the same mill. Me, I'm an amateur chef, so DW doesn't go near the kitchen
normally anyway, apart from loading/unloading the dishwasher; since she
became pregnant, that's my job as well. As far as I'm concerned DW has one
job at the moment, growing a baby inside her - the rest of the stuff,
cleaning, cooking and other day to day chores are mine.

Oh, with the exception of the ironing - I can't do ironing, useless at it,
believe me I've tried. Still DW needs to do something while watching
Desperate Housewives doesn't she. *grin*

If after doing all my chores I still get muttered at for daring to not put
her dishes away immediately because I'm done-in and, prefer to have half an
hour sit down before doing so - the damn dishes can stop there forever!
*grin*

I'm thinking of one woman in particular who I know, she criticizes
every little thing that her husband does - even washing his hands in
the kitchen sink! And consequently he doesn't help in the house - he
mows the lawn and does all the outdoor, garage type things, but I can't
see him ever vacuuming or doing laundry. She acts like he's a big kid
that she has to take care of, and she rarely acknowledges the things
that he *does* do for the two of them. It's very sad. Sometimes he
reminds me of a puppy that has been beaten... He walks on eggshells,
in constant fear that he's going to inadvertantly step in it again.

NOT the recipe for a happy marriage. It sounds like a reversal of those
1950s marriages mentioned earlier in the thread. What you're discribing is
abuse, nothing less. Constantly running down a partner, regardless of
gender, belittling them and attacking their self worth is emotional and
mental abuse, it may not show scars like physical abuse but the scars are
there none-the-less. (Ooh I've gone all Dr Phil on you - sorry!).

Ultimately her behaviour is self-defeating. The woman you describe is going
to grow old very lonely, because even if her partner doesn't leave her, she
will end up living with somebody who she can not communicate with and who
may love her, but will never like her or respect her.

Anyway, this is pretty tangential to your post (which was lovely, by
the way, and very true), but I started musing...


Muse away, muses are good.

regards

Bob

wrote:
Melania wrote:

Oh, and by the way, divorce rates have been dropping steadily since
1981. http://www.divorcereform.org/03statab.html Basically, couples
who
married in the 1960s and 1970s *who thought the lifestyle you
advocate
worked* realized it wasn't working (yes, especially the women) and
finally, due to the feminist movement, felt they could end an
unhappy
marriage. In the past 25 or so years, men and women have learned to
enter marriage more honestly, more equally, with fewer idealistic
notions of how "perfect" everything is going to be - - and the
dropping
divorce rate shows that this is in fact working.

She shoots, she scores!!! The crowd goes wild! Outstanding reply,
Melania. Really, really brilliant. Wish I'd thought of it.

High fives!

Amy

Thank you, thank you . . . I knew I'd read an article somewhere about
the myth of ever-increasing divorce rates, and have been wanting to
crack out some stats ever since this farce began.

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

wrote:
Robert Powell wrote:

We're simple not stupid. We love you, we want to help, but to do it
we need
your help.

Tell us what you want, we'll do it!

Tell us why you're doing something and we'll understand!

You get frustrated, we get frustrated. End the frustration cycle I
say,
parents of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your
frustrations!

Bob, do you think sometimes that men give up because they are told so
many times that they're doing something wrong? I've seen this with
my
friends and relatives. "Well, I could unload the dishwasher for her,
but I'll just put something back in the wrong place and get yelled
at,
and it's easier to avoid getting yelled at by not unloading the
dishwasher at all than it is to risk making a mistake and getting
yelled at..." Especially with men, because they hate to be yelled at
so much, I think it cuts men more deeply than we women realize.

Amy, I couldn't agree more with this. Often, the wife isn't yelling at
all, but criticizing in such a dismissive way ("Oh, you never do this
right!") that the husband takes it as yelling. The irony here is that
women feel exactly the same way when we try to show incentive and doing
"men's work" that we sort of understand but not completely and got
anything other than support (and, if necessary, a very gentle "what if
you try it this way?").

I've made a serious effort since we first moved in together to make
sure that my husband doesn't get criticized for doing things around
the
house. Whenever he does the slightest little thing, I practically
throw a ticker tape parade. If he puts something back in the wrong
place, so what? I'd rather have to hunt for the whisk a little than
empty the dishwasher myself! Consequently, I have a husband who does
the lion's share of the laundry, who cleans up the dinner dishes
every
night, who picks up after himself (mostly), and who makes my life at
home easier instead of more difficult - even when I'm not pregnant!

I think of my grandfather and great-grandfather, and dh's grandfather,
all of whom did the dishes after dinner religiously, often getting the
kids in to help. My grandfather did most of the baking. When I was home
to visit, my dad surprised me by saying, "I put your laundry in the
dryer - except the stuff to hang up, of course, which is upstairs."
Once he took over laundry duty, evidentally, he became the king of
conscientious laundry habits!

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

Robert Powell wrote:
Snip
Sheesh......at least when kids say the darndest things it's cute.
Not so
cute from a grown up.

snip

In defence of DHs everywhere - we're lame, look we know we're lame,
there's
no need to rub it in okay! *grin*

Me I've learnt more in the past 5 months about pregnancy than I ever
wanted
to know - do I know as much DW? No, do I want to - HELL NO!! That
stuff is
scary.

Yet for all the books, videos TV shows and listings in these
newsgroup, do I
have any real idea what it is to be both a father and husband?

Nada, nowt, bumpkiss, not a sausage, the result of any number
subtracted
from itself, Sweet Fanny Adams, not a clue - in summary... no! The
husband
bit alone is difficult enough now we're just supposed to know how to
be a
father as well?

I think I really lucked out, Bob - dealing with a newborn seemed
hardwired into dh's brain. He naturally seemed to know how to hold,
soothe, and care for the baby, while I was the one floundering. But it
wasn't out of a book or a video or something; it was just a natural
ability.

Further in, with developmental stuff, health issues, etc., since I'm
the at home parent, I became the one who knows more - more hands on
experience, more research done. The two of them still have a great
bond, though. The other thing is that I'm not very good at playing with
children. I try, but I have to make the effort, whereas dh just slips
effortlessly into it. I know my brother is going to be a great dad -
he's amazing with babies, but he can also carry on a conversation
forever with a 4yo, 6yo, 8yo, 10yo - where I awkwardly ask lame stuff
like, "so, how's school going?"

snip
The role we knew before pregnancy, as men we were used to it, it was
comforting we understood it, but we had time to get to know you, it
was a
gradual process, we learnt as we went along - are we supposed to like
your
mother or not, are you a cat person, dog person or animal person,
flowers
and, chocolates are they special treats or necessities of life, foot
rubs,
shoulder rubs, either neither or both? These are all things we had
the time
to find out about you for ourselves, it allowed us to go from
boyfriends to
husbands or life partners - whatever your relationship, in time we
became
reliable enough to be fathers.

We don't have that luxury of time now!

The baby is here, your needs and theirs are here and we don't have
the time
to learn what how to answer those needs. The roles have changed, you
are not
the same woman you were before the birth, now as well as wife, you're
also a
mother. We understood the needs of wife, we don't understand the
needs of
mother combined with wife.

Yet instead of telling us what's now expected of us, we're supposed
to just
know - presumably by some sort of osmosis, I don't know, again you
won't
tell us. Dag-nammit!

We're simple not stupid. We love you, we want to help, but to do it
we need
your help.

Tell us what you want, we'll do it!

Tell us why you're doing something and we'll understand!

This is crucial. It really is that simple. We should never assume that
our spouse somehow magically knows what we need or want, or wish was
done. I see women doing it all the time and it's frustrating as hell to
see it in someone else's relationship. I'm a pretty forthright person,
and I usually just say what I want, but I admit sometimes I get that
twinge of "but he should just *know*". And he shouldn't. There's no
reason to. Granted, the longer two people are together and know one
another, you do learn to anticipate the other's needs and reactions,
but we should consider that a wonderful bonus in our relationship, not
the rule of how it should go. I get to experience the other side of the
equation daily now, with a semi-verbal toddler walking up and pulling
on me and announcing "I Want!" and then waiting expectantly for
something to materialize. Strange phrases leap from my mouth, like "I'm
not a mind reader, you know!!"

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

Robert Powell wrote:

Completely - I fall back on my analogy of being the ole family dog.
If you
chastise the dog he won't do it again. If I'm told off for not
mopping the
floor correctly, I won't do it again. It hurts to be told off by
somebody
you love. If I'm told, "Thanks, I appreciate what you've done, but
you've
missed the corners." I'll do it again and next time get the corners
as well.

It sure has been my experience that your analogy is true - for men and
for women, but men seem to be much more sensitive to criticism than
women (men talk less, and sometimes seem to value words more).

I hate to admit this, but I read Dr. Laura's book (no one's going to
like me anymore!) about the stupid things wives do to mess up their
husbands or something, and the one grain of truth that really stood out
was that men NEED to hear that they're good providers and that they're
respected and loved, in the same way that women need to be cuddled.
Since reading it, I have made a serious effort to tell my husband often
(like several times a week) that I am proud of him, that he's
intelligent, that he's successful, that he takes good care of me, that
he's a great husband, etc. Our marriage was terrific to begin with,
but it has been even better since I've put this on my to-do list. I
know that he has been happier since I started doing this, too. And
it's all true, it's stuff that I just assumed that he knew before.
Even if I know I'm pretty, it's still nice to hear. Same goes for him,
with the whole "proud of you" routine.

Girls! Homework: For the next three days, at dinner, tell your
husband that you're proud of him and be specific - tell him why.
Report back with results.

Robert, you get a homework pass today.

Sounds like your DH and I are cut from the same cloth or at least
came from
the same mill. Me, I'm an amateur chef, so DW doesn't go near the
kitchen
normally anyway, apart from loading/unloading the dishwasher; since
she
became pregnant, that's my job as well.

Bending over is getting harder and harder... I'll probably be handing
that duty over to my husband any day now...

As far as I'm concerned DW has one
job at the moment, growing a baby inside her - the rest of the stuff,

cleaning, cooking and other day to day chores are mine.

Wow. That's so refreshing after all the 1950s posts I've been
exchanging with goth guy. I was afraid that my husband was some sort
of mutant!

Oh, with the exception of the ironing - I can't do ironing, useless
at it,
believe me I've tried. Still DW needs to do something while watching
Desperate Housewives doesn't she. *grin*

Ha! I suck at ironing. We do very little, but what we do gets done by
my husband!

NOT the recipe for a happy marriage. It sounds like a reversal of
those
1950s marriages mentioned earlier in the thread. What you're
discribing is
abuse, nothing less. Constantly running down a partner, regardless of

gender, belittling them and attacking their self worth is emotional
and
mental abuse, it may not show scars like physical abuse but the scars
are
there none-the-less. (Ooh I've gone all Dr Phil on you - sorry!).

I agree with you completely. Sometimes I wish those two would just get
divorced and give the rest of us some peace! (They're relatives, so we
can't just distance ourselves...).

Ultimately her behaviour is self-defeating. The woman you describe is
going
to grow old very lonely, because even if her partner doesn't leave
her, she
will end up living with somebody who she can not communicate with and
who
may love her, but will never like her or respect her.

I agree completely. Their relationship is really sad. Seeing them
always makes me appreciate my husband so much...

Amy

Melania wrote:

Amy, I couldn't agree more with this. Often, the wife isn't yelling
at
all, but criticizing in such a dismissive way ("Oh, you never do this
right!") that the husband takes it as yelling. The irony here is that
women feel exactly the same way when we try to show incentive and
doing
"men's work" that we sort of understand but not completely and got
anything other than support (and, if necessary, a very gentle "what
if
you try it this way?").

Yep. It's really sad that we often don't give them the same
consideration, isn't it?

One thing that has stuck with me since I was about 20 - I read
something that said, "Why is it that we treat the stranger who checks
us out at the grocery store with more courtesy than the people we're
supposed to love most in the world?" Every time I find myself getting
short with my husband, I remember that, and I remind myself to say
"please" and "thank you" and to use a friendly tone of voice, and to
ask instead of demanding, etc...

I think of my grandfather and great-grandfather, and dh's
grandfather,
all of whom did the dishes after dinner religiously, often getting
the
kids in to help. My grandfather did most of the baking. When I was
home
to visit, my dad surprised me by saying, "I put your laundry in the
dryer - except the stuff to hang up, of course, which is upstairs."
Once he took over laundry duty, evidentally, he became the king of
conscientious laundry habits!

That's awesome! And what a lucky Mom you have!!

Amy

wrote:
Robert Powell wrote:

Completely - I fall back on my analogy of being the ole family dog.
If you
chastise the dog he won't do it again. If I'm told off for not
mopping the
floor correctly, I won't do it again. It hurts to be told off by
somebody
you love. If I'm told, "Thanks, I appreciate what you've done, but
you've
missed the corners." I'll do it again and next time get the corners
as well.

It sure has been my experience that your analogy is true - for men
and
for women, but men seem to be much more sensitive to criticism than
women (men talk less, and sometimes seem to value words more).

I hate to admit this, but I read Dr. Laura's book (no one's going to
like me anymore!) about the stupid things wives do to mess up their
husbands or something, and the one grain of truth that really stood
out
was that men NEED to hear that they're good providers and that
they're
respected and loved, in the same way that women need to be cuddled.
Since reading it, I have made a serious effort to tell my husband
often
(like several times a week) that I am proud of him, that he's
intelligent, that he's successful, that he takes good care of me,
that
he's a great husband, etc. Our marriage was terrific to begin with,
but it has been even better since I've put this on my to-do list. I
know that he has been happier since I started doing this, too. And
it's all true, it's stuff that I just assumed that he knew before.
Even if I know I'm pretty, it's still nice to hear. Same goes for
him,
with the whole "proud of you" routine.

Isn't it the height of irony that goth '50s guy (I'll stop calling him
that when a name appears . . . ) is ranting "you are terrible lazy
dependent fat-ass ingrates" to a group of women who don't fit the 50's
stereotype BUT who put a great deal of importance on respecting, caring
for, and communicating with their husbands? I can't stand when women
sit around and bitch about their husbands being oversized children, or
about how all men are dogs. If this was that kind of forum, I wouldn't
be here, and I doubt many others would either. Maybe there's an
alt.men-are-pig-dogs group out there or something, but this isn't it.

(and I don't hate you for having read Dr. Laura's book - I admit I
avoid her stuff because of her homophobia, so I haven't read it and
couldn't comment!!)

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

Melania wrote:

Isn't it the height of irony that goth '50s guy (I'll stop calling
him
that when a name appears . . . ) is ranting "you are terrible lazy
dependent fat-ass ingrates" to a group of women who don't fit the
50's
stereotype BUT who put a great deal of importance on respecting,
caring
for, and communicating with their husbands?

Oh, absolutely! I've noticed that as a group, MKPers are very
respectful of their husbands. We may complain occasionally when they
say or do silly things, but doesn't everyone? Most of my complaining
is when my husband says *hilarious* things - I appreciate his sense of
humor, but I have got to get it through his head that I don't want to
laugh during a transvaginal ultrasound!! Luckily we're done with
those... I thought I was going to die, it hurt so bad...

I can't stand when women
sit around and bitch about their husbands being oversized children,
or
about how all men are dogs. If this was that kind of forum, I
wouldn't
be here, and I doubt many others would either.

I sure wouldn't. I never have anything to say in those sorts of
conversations - my husband is fantastic! I've known him for 17 years,
we've been friends for a long time, we've been together for 8 years,
and we've been married for 4. I can't imagine spending that much time
with someone I didn't respect!

Still, if he's going to leave his socks in the middle of the living
room floor, I'm going to tease him over it. I suspect that he does it
now because it's become a running joke.

Maybe there's an
alt.men-are-pig-dogs group out there or something, but this isn't it.

Damn straight!

(and I don't hate you for having read Dr. Laura's book - I admit I
avoid her stuff because of her homophobia, so I haven't read it and
couldn't comment!!)

98% of the time I listen to her because I disagree with most of what
comes out of her mouth, and it's more fun to yell at her than it is to
concentrate on my driving (hee...), but every once in a while, she
really hits it. I thought a lot of her book was crap, but I really
took that part about praise to heart, and it has made a huge
difference.

I like you. I think we'd be friends in real life if you lived here.

Amy

snip
I sure wouldn't. I never have anything to say in those sorts of
conversations - my husband is fantastic! I've known him for 17
years,
we've been friends for a long time, we've been together for 8 years,
and we've been married for 4. I can't imagine spending that much
time
with someone I didn't respect!

Well, exactly! I've known dh for 15 years, we were friends long before
we dated, we dated for 2, we lived together for 4, and now we've been
married for almost 6. That's 12 years with a person, as well as having
known him for 3 before. There's got to be mutual respect.

Still, if he's going to leave his socks in the middle of the living
room floor, I'm going to tease him over it. I suspect that he does
it
now because it's become a running joke.

So many things become like that, don't they? There's something about
having almost grown up with someone (IIRC, you're 28 or thereabouts,
right?) that means you have all kinds of inside jokes and unspoken
understandings.

Maybe there's an
alt.men-are-pig-dogs group out there or something, but this isn't
it.

Damn straight!

(and I don't hate you for having read Dr. Laura's book - I admit I
avoid her stuff because of her homophobia, so I haven't read it and
couldn't comment!!)

98% of the time I listen to her because I disagree with most of what
comes out of her mouth, and it's more fun to yell at her than it is
to
concentrate on my driving (hee...), but every once in a while, she
really hits it. I thought a lot of her book was crap, but I really
took that part about praise to heart, and it has made a huge
difference.

I like you. I think we'd be friends in real life if you lived here.

Amy

I have been thinking the same thing about you, Amy!!

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)