alternatives to 100% breastfeeding

"Vicky Bilaniuk" wrote in message
.. .
OK, I hate to say this, but practically everything I read on this ng
about breastfeeding is actually turning me away from it. (perhaps
it's
good that I read all of this *before* diving into the situation, so I
thank everyone, even though this is probably not the reaction that
some
of you would rather see)

Remember that people pretty much only post to get help when they're
having trouble. What you are reading is not necessarily any indication
of what you would experience. Many people have no trouble with
breastfeeding at all -- after all, it is evolutionarily necessary that
we be able to nurse our babies. Round-the-clock nursing during growth
spurts is admittedly pretty much routine, but they generally last for
only a couple days at a time. If you anticipate them and know that's
what's going on it makes it easier to tolerate because you know it's
only temporary. I'm currently 100% nursing and I think it's really nice
when the baby gets hungry, I just feed him, instantly. I don't even
have to get up, I just stay sitting right where I am. I just hate
washing dishes and have less than no desire to add a lot of bottles to
the dishwashing chore. YMMV on what you think is easier.

One more question: how long would it take to basically pump yourself
dry?

This would depend entirely on how much you supplement. The more you use
formula, the less breastmilk your body will produce, and the sooner you
would "dry up". Some people who have not used any formula have fed
pumped EBM for over a year, but that requires more work and dedication
than just breastfeeding would, IMO. When Jaden was 3 months old he
suddenly refused to nurse on my left side. I pumped on that side for a
few weeks to keep up supply in the hope he would go back to it but that
didn't happen, so I quit pumping. (It's been no trouble at all to feed
him exclusively from my right side.) I found pumping to be incredibly
tedious and would have loved to be able to just nurse directly instead
of pump. It is so much easier to nurse, IMO. I don't want to
discourage you from pumping if that is what you want to do, I'm just
saying, don't assume it will be easier than nursing. Give nursing a
try, because you won't know how it is for *you*, unless you do.

If I don't breastfeed and instead pump for
the first couple of months, or something, I can go on
the drugs sooner rather than later,

Why? If the drugs are truly contraindicated for breastfeeding, it won't
be safe to use your EBM either.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 3, and Jaden, 6 months

I'm sorry, but someone has to be the bad guy. I'll do it. Hope you all can
see this for the truth that it is, and not hate me.

Unless you are incredible committed to pumping - round the clock, likely -
you will end up giving your little one artificial milk at some point.
Please reconsider!
Formula feeding will affect your child for life. Presenting this issue as a
"personal decision" does not give proper weight to the negative impact of
artificial feeding. Would you consider smoking around your baby, putting
baby to sleep on his stomach, or deliberately exposing your little one to
germs? Of course not! But artificial feeding has PROVEN, LIFELONG effects
on a very small being who cannot defend itself. This decision should not be
taken lightly (just because you are "turned away").

Babies fed artificial milk have lower IQ's than babies given human milk.
Artificially fed babies have a higher incidence of infection, anemia,
diarrhea, meningitis, diabetes, gastroenteritis, asthma, constipation,
allergies, celiac disease, Crohn's disease, dental and speech problems,
childhood cancer, pulmonary disease, cataracts, high cholesterol, and many
more. Artificially fed babies are three to four times as likely as breastfed
infants to suffer from ear infections and lower respiratory infections, and
sixteen times more likely to be sick during the first two months of life.

As for medications, I'll cut and paste from promom.com.
"Over the years, many, many, many women have been wrongly told to stop
breastfeeding. The decision about continuing breastfeeding when the mother
must take a drug, for example, involves more than consideration of whether
the medication appears in the mother's milk. It also involves taking into
consideration the risks of formula feeding for the baby, which are
substantial, the risks of not breastfeeding for the mother, which are
substantial, and other issues as well.

Breastfeeding and Maternal Medication

Most drugs appear in the milk, but only in very tiny amounts. Although a
very few drugs may still cause problems for infants even in tiny doses, this
is not the case for the vast majority. Mothers who are told they must stop
breastfeeding because of a certain drug should ask to be prescribed an
alternative medication which is acceptable for breastfeeding mothers. In
this day and age, it is rarely a problem to find such an alternative. If the
prescribing physician does not know how to proceed, s/he should get more
information. If the prescribing physician is not flexible, the mother should
seek another opinion.

Most drugs may be considered safe for the mother to take and continue
breastfeeding if:
1. they are commonly prescribed for infants. Examples are amoxycillin,
cloxacillin, most antibiotics.
2. they are considered safe in pregnancy. Drugs enter directly into the
baby's bloodstream when used during pregnancy. The baby generally gets much
higher doses at a much more sensitive period during pregnancy, than during
breastfeeding. This is not an absolute, however, as during pregnancy, the
mother's liver and kidneys will get rid of the drug for the baby.
3. they are not absorbed from the stomach or intestines. These include many
drugs which are given by injection. Examples are gentamicin, heparin,
lidocaine or other local anaesthetics used by dentists.

The following frequently used drugs are also generally safe during
breastfeeding: acetaminophen (Tylenol, Tempra), alcohol (in reasonable
amounts), aspirin (in usual doses, for short periods), most antiepileptic
medications, most antihypertensive medications, tetracycline, codeine, most
nonsteroidal antiinflammatory medications, prednisone, thyroxine,
propylthiouracil (PTU), warfarin, tricyclic antidepressant medications,
sertraline (Zoloft), paroxetine (Paxil), other antidepressants,
metronidazole (Flagyl), Nix, Kwellada.

Medications applied to the skin, inhaled or applied to the eyes or nose are
almost always safe for breastfeeding.

You can still breastfeeding after general, regional or local anaesthesia. As
soon as you are up to it. Medications you might take afterwards for pain are
almost always permitted. Immunizations given to the mother do not require
her to stop breastfeeding (including with live viruses such as german
measles, Hepatitis A and B).

Get reliable information before stopping breastfeeding. Once you have
stopped it may be very difficult to restart, especially if the baby is very
young.

I hope you can make the right decision for your child - and yourself (have
you looked at breast cancer rates lately?!?)
Hannah

BTW, your DH can lactate if he desires . . .


"Vicky Bilaniuk" wrote in message
.. .
OK, I hate to say this, but practically everything I read on this ng
about breastfeeding is actually turning me away from it. (perhaps it's
good that I read all of this *before* diving into the situation, so I
thank everyone, even though this is probably not the reaction that some
of you would rather see) I would like to know more about the
alternatives. So, we've got 100% bottle feeding, or supplementing
breastmilk with formula.

Someone posted and said that she had pumped at first until her supply
ran dry. I forget who that was and am too brain dead to do a google
search (my apologies - really not feeling well these days). I'm hoping
that she's reading and can post and give more details. I would like to
know more about her experiences. I also know that Daye pumped for the
first 6 weeks.

One more question: how long would it take to basically pump yourself
dry? I am not implying that if I did this, I would be in a hurry (if I
were in a hurry I would just put up with the initial engorgement and
never pump at all). I am just curious about how much one might be able
to expect to get. Maybe Daye can help out here. Was it extremely
difficult to get 6 weeks out of pumping?

I'm leaning more and more towards the idea of pumping and bottle feeding
(using EBM and formula as needed). Personal reasons, as well as a skin
condition that has been haunting me for a long time (was going to see
specialists about it and how to deal with it during BFing - will have to
go on nasty drugs after baby and breastfeeding are all done), are the
driving factors, here. I never wanted to breastfeed, but DH managed to
get me to change my mind. However, reading about other peoples'
experiences is making me go back to what I originally wanted (probably
much to DH's annoyance, but if he complains, I'll tell him to grow
breasts and do it himself). If I don't breastfeed and instead pump for
the first couple of months, or something, I can go on the drugs sooner
rather than later, and with supplementing, hopefully I won't experience
some of the things I've read about here regarding breastfeeding a
newborn. I don't want to lose my mind. I've lost enough of it already.
;-)

I know I'm being bitchier than normal, but I can't help it. My
apologies for the tone of this post.

Vicky,
You must of course make the decision that's right for you.
I found the early weeks of breastfeeding very hard, but was so glad I'd
persisted later on.

Just check your skin condition can't be treated with breastfeeding friendly
drugs, most can.

Finally if you are thinking about mixed feeding please be aware of what one
bottle can do.:
http://www.drjaygordon.com/bf/supplement.htm

You can then make your decision with the full facts to be right for your own
family.
Serenity

"Luna" wrote in message
link.net...
I'm sorry, but someone has to be the bad guy. I'll do it. Hope you all
can
see this for the truth that it is, and not hate me.

Unless you are incredible committed to pumping - round the clock, likely -
you will end up giving your little one artificial milk at some point.
Please reconsider!
Formula feeding will affect your child for life. Presenting this issue as
a
"personal decision" does not give proper weight to the negative impact of
artificial feeding. Would you consider smoking around your baby, putting
baby to sleep on his stomach, or deliberately exposing your little one to
germs? Of course not! But artificial feeding has PROVEN, LIFELONG
effects
on a very small being who cannot defend itself. This decision should not
be
taken lightly (just because you are "turned away").

Babies fed artificial milk have lower IQ's than babies given human milk.
Artificially fed babies have a higher incidence of infection, anemia,
diarrhea, meningitis, diabetes, gastroenteritis, asthma, constipation,
allergies, celiac disease, Crohn's disease, dental and speech problems,
childhood cancer, pulmonary disease, cataracts, high cholesterol, and many
more. Artificially fed babies are three to four times as likely as
breastfed
infants to suffer from ear infections and lower respiratory infections,
and
sixteen times more likely to be sick during the first two months of life.

I don't hate you, but I think your argument will have the opposite of your
intended effect. Lots of us do things that are not recommended, though we
may not want to admit to it. FWIW, there are plenty of BF'ers who smoke or
put babies to sleep on their tummies or expose them to germs. The OP no
doubt knows the statistics.

To the OP, I didn't think I'd BF for more than 6 wks and I did it for 21
months with my first. Why not try it to see how you do and wean when you
need to for your meds? You may find you enjoy it more than you think.
Maybe not, but you never know until you try.

Vicky Bilaniuk wrote:
OK, I hate to say this, but practically everything I read on this ng
about breastfeeding is actually turning me away from it.

Bottom line: do what works for you.

That said, m.k.p is about solving problems, and breastfeeding problems
here tend to involve newborns! Their mothers haven't yet gotten into
m.k.bf.

I have been posting for help with my breastfeeding problems, and not
saying much about the successes. That's because I have almost zero
time for any non-emergency posting. So, for the record, and to offer
you a little reassurance that, whatever you decide, you will be able
to deal with it: on the whole my breastfeeding problems have been of
very short duration and easily solved. In some cases, just passage
of time is enough to fix them; each new day brings a new problem and
more often than not a new solution to yesterday's problem. I have
been exhausted and frustrated to tears, but in retrospect that had a
lot more to do with my lack of sleep (trying to be supermom, trying
to resume too much of my old life too soon) and not really due to the
problems per se. So don't be too quick to abandon breastfeeding for
the sake of avoiding problems: it won't work! You will have them in
either case, and you will solve them.

Hang in there.

Pologirl

Jill wrote:

"Vicky Bilaniuk" wrote
I'm leaning more and more towards the idea of pumping and bottle feeding

(using EBM and formula as needed). Personal reasons, as well as a skin
condition that has been haunting me for a long time (was going to see
specialists about it and how to deal with it during BFing - will have to
go on nasty drugs after baby snip, etc


Hey, that's ok-- you don't have to justify your decision, it's a personal
one, and no one should judge you for making it. My midwife was telling me
that she thinks a lot more people would give breastfeed a try or stick to
it, if bf advocates wouldn't jump on them for not making a 100%, no-choice,
all bf all the time decision etc. The midwife told me she actually has quite
a few patients who use both formula and bf too, and are succesful and happy
and have no problems.

I can't help you since I am clueless about bf-ing and have so much to learn
and no experience! But just wanted to say that my midwife did mention that a
lot of people do what you are asking about, with no problems. And that your
decision is a personal one and is the best decision for you

Thanks, Jill. Actually, I have a midwife appointment coming up in a
couple of days, so maybe I'll ask her about it. They've got a lot of
reading material there, too.

Clisby wrote:

Why would pumping rather than BF allow you to take the drugs sooner? I
think I'm missing something here.

It's assuming that I would stop sooner, rather than going for, say, a
whole year. I read in many other posts that pumping doesn't get as much
milk out, and I've also read (here - but I forget who posted it) that
you can actually lose your supply if you exclusively pump. Perhaps the
trick is to taper down on purpose, over time.

ModernMiko wrote:

"Plissken" wrote in message
news:kqZbc.23494$oR5.22717@pd7tw3no...

"ModernMiko" wrote in message
. ..

| I hope I don't get jumped on for this since it's out of the norm but

I'll

| tell you what I did with DS. I was going through a rough time with some
post
| partum depression and DS was in the hospital for a week after he was

born

(I
| was sent home after 2 day). What worked and worked very well for me was
| pumping and then feeding him that milk with a bottle. It allowed my
husband
| to get up and feed him some times so I could get some rest and it

allowed

my
| dad to feed him while I was at school. All the while he got the benefits
of
| breastmilk. We also made sure that he had plenty of cuddling and skin
| contact. I pumped for 18 months altogether. First six months, he was fed
| exclusively the EBM, and little by little the EBM was cut out from

months

| 15-18. I used a Medela Pump In Style. As a grad research asst, I was

lucky

| to have my own office (with a lock) so I pumped a couple of times a day
when
| I was at school and had an insulated pack with a few cold packs that

kept

| the milk fresh until I got home. It worked very well for me. I'll

probably

| try breastfeeding with this baby but its nice to know that I have what I
| think is a perfectly reasonable alternative as a back up. Pumping that
much
| that long took effort sometimes but I'm happy I did it. I wanted to give
him
| BM if I could. My SIL tried to make me feel bad about not being "pure"
| breastfeeder but she tends to be holier-than-thou on a lot of things.
|

Wow! Good for you for pumping for so long Jenn! I am truly impressed. I

had

to pump for DD for 4 weeks before she learned to latch on and I know it's
not an easy thing to do especially in those early months.

Nadene



Thanks Nadene. Once I got a system in place, it wasn't too bad although I
was ready to give it up by the time I did.


Thank you for sharing your story. I need to hear more about what other
people have done.

Vicky Bilaniuk wrote:
Clisby wrote:

Why would pumping rather than BF allow you to take the drugs sooner?
I think I'm missing something here.


It's assuming that I would stop sooner, rather than going for, say, a
whole year. I read in many other posts that pumping doesn't get as much
milk out, and I've also read (here - but I forget who posted it) that
you can actually lose your supply if you exclusively pump. Perhaps the
trick is to taper down on purpose, over time.


Well, you can breastfeed without committing to a year; you could nurse
the baby for several months and then taper off, supplementing with
formula. I suggest that for 2 reasons: First, you might not dislike
breastfeeding or have a hard time with it; and second, I think pumping
and bottlefeeding is the hardest way to feed a baby.

I pumped for my first child for 2.5 months. I found breastfeeding to
be really difficult, but I always regretted not sticking it out with my
daughter. I did breastfeed my son (still do). In my experience, BF
is not as easy as formula-feeding, but it's a heck of a lot easier than
pumping and bottlefeeding.

Another factor to consider is that a baby is better than a pump for
building up your milk supply. If you try breastfeeding and really
dislike it, I would bet you'd have better luck pumping if you had
breastfed for 2-3 months first.

Clisby

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Vicky Bilaniuk wrote:
I'm leaning more and more towards the idea of pumping and bottle
feeding (using EBM and formula as needed). Personal reasons, as well
as a skin condition that has been haunting me for a long time (was
going to see specialists about it and how to deal with it during BFing
- will have to go on nasty drugs after baby and breastfeeding are all
done), are the driving factors, here. I never wanted to breastfeed,
but DH managed to get me to change my mind. However, reading about
other peoples' experiences is making me go back to what I originally
wanted (probably much to DH's annoyance, but if he complains, I'll
tell him to grow breasts and do it himself). If I don't breastfeed
and instead pump for the first couple of months, or something, I can
go on the drugs sooner rather than later, and with supplementing,
hopefully I won't experience some of the things I've read about here
regarding breastfeeding a newborn. I don't want to lose my mind.
I've lost enough of it already. ;-)


Hmm...I'm a little confused. It seems to me you've
got two separate issues going on here, and I'm not sure I
understand all the interactions. Issue #1 is breastmilk
vs. formula. Do I understand correctly that the drugs you
wish to take are a problem with breastmilk, such that once
you start taking them, whenever that is, you will no longer
be able to feed the baby breastmilk?

That is correct.

Issue #2 (at least for
the breastmilk situation) is breast vs. bottle. Does
the skin condition affect breastfeeding directly, or is

Yes. I have the condition on various parts of my body, including my
breasts. It is a very personal issue that I HATE VERY MUCH. I was
hoping it would be gone by now, but since I've had the problem for 10
blinking years, I suppose I could not have gotten so lucky. I've tried
everything. The drug I can use after birth and/or breastfeeding is
basically the drug of last resort (if it doesn't work, then I'm just
going to have to live with the problem for the rest of my life). Lots
of side effects, apparently. My doc (and heck even the dermatologist
I've seen) was reluctant to use it before. I have a hope that it will
work, though, because I've used a derivative of it before and it seemed
to have an effect. Had to stop because it's a known teratogen.
Normally you only take the drug for maybe a month, but I was on it for
months and months, so I obviously need something stronger.

it just that the drugs you would take for it are problematic
in the breastmilk? I guess I'm confused because you say

I hate to be confusing but the truth is that I just don't feel
comfortable talking to anyone about this, much less a public forum. I
didn't give many details because of this. I will talk to the midwife
about it in great detail, trust me, but for now I would really like to
hear about other peoples' experiences. My dr, of course, already knows
everything, but the only suggestion he's been able to make is to see
this other doc who has special experience with skin problems on breasts
during breastfeeding (although he doesn't know if she has experience
with my specific problem, but there's only one way to find out), and of
course the drugs later to finally get rid of this idiotic problem.

you can take the drugs sooner if you pump than if you
breastfeed, but I don't understand how that would be
the case.

Sorry - I was implying that I would only pump for the first little
while, and then stop with the breastmilk altogether.

Second, I'm a little confused as to your goal.
It sounds like you want to feed *some* breastmilk? What,
specifically, do you want to accomplish? Do you just want

I don't know! I'm so confused! People keep pulling me in different
directions, but no one ever seems to really care about what *I* want.
What I think I want is EBM supplemented with formula. I've always said
I wanted this. DH of course wants me to do 100% breastfeeding. He
could probably join the militants and be an active member. ;-) It's
funny - he's normally very sweet and accomodating, but sometimes he gets
very stubborn about certain things, and this seems to be one of them.
He won't actually say anything when the baby comes - I mean, I *know* I
will be able to do whatever works best for the baby and I without him
really complaining, but the guilt factor will be there, which I don't
want. I keep trying to talk to him about this because I want it cleared
up ahead of time (otherwise there will be resentment), but he never
wants to agree fully to anything. I don't know - maybe it's just me and
I'm totally not understanding him. Maybe he's being is usual
accomodating self but I'm expecting something else, subconsciously.
Some of the people here have made me feel like I would be horribly bad
if I didn't 100% breastfeed, so that's probably "feeding" this problem.

to give breastmilk as long as it's easy? Or is there a
period of time that you want to be able to give breastmilk?

I want to be able to give breastmilk at first because I really do
believe that it will probably help build up the child's immune system,
and possibly other things too. I don't know how long would be useful,
though. Daye did 6 weeks. Is that a good period of time? I realize
that people all have differing opinions on this, though. I also realize
that the very political organization called the WHO advocates 2 years.
I don't believe anything the WHO says, though (I find them to be very
untrustworthy).

Or what? I'm thinking that how you'd want to approach this
would depend on precisely what your goals are. For instance,
if you want to, say, be able to take the drugs by, oh,
three months postpartum, then probably the easiest thing
to do is ditch the idea of pumping, breastfeed, introduce
a bottle of formula fairly early (because you obviously
won't have a fit if nipple confusion results, but you'd
be in trouble if the baby refused a bottle), and see how
long your supply holds up and how long you want to wait
to take the drugs.

This sounds like an interesting idea. Thank you.

Anyway, I guess I don't understand how pumping
and feeding EBM in a bottle helps you out? Pumping just

It keeps the baby away from the skin problem. That said, though, I
don't even know if pumping would be safe. I guess I'll have to wait and
see. I'm on a pregnancy-safe drug at the moment that seems to at least
be keeping the problem with the breasts under control (having no effect
elsewhere, though, and unfortunately the problem elsewhere is getting
worse), but it's not *gone*, so I'm just going to have to play the wait
and see game. I don't want the baby to come into contact with the
affected areas (I have my reasons).

really seems the hard way to go about this, because it
takes longer to pump than to nurse in the first place,
and even when you're done, you still haven't fed the
baby! Everyone is different, but in my case, it takes
about 10 minutes, max, to nurse, but it takes a good
20 minutes to pump enough for a feeding, and then around
15 minutes to feed that much to the baby in a bottle.
So when I think of ease, 10 minutes sounds waaaaaay
better to me than 35+ minutes to accomplish the same
thing, and that's before I've washed out the pump and
the bottles. I think in your situation, I'd be far more
tempted to nurse and feed formula in a bottle, given
that the drugs will eventually make EBM not an option
anyway? You may compromise your supply by supplementing,
but that doesn't seem like it would be the end of the
world to you, and you'd get much more of a break
supplementing with formula than trying to pump and
feed all the time. Or am I missing something here?
(That's not to say I don't admire women who pump and
feed EBM exclusively, for whatever reason. It just
doesn't sound like you're particularly hell bent on
avoiding formula and that you'd need to be on formula
full time by the time you start taking the drugs, so
I'm not sure I see the problem with introducing formula
for the bottle feedings rather than EBM.)

My other issue is time. I'm simply not heroic enough to breastfeed for
45 minutes out of every hour. How can one stay awake for that
long???!!! Do people go to bed? When someone says "every 1 to 2 hours"
I immediately wonder where sleeping time enters in. I would die of
exhaustion if I couldn't go to sleep. Everyone would. I cannot pull
all-nighters. I realize that some people deal with this problem by
co-sleeping, but even if I did that, I know I would stay awake - that's
just *me*. This is the type of stuff that turns me off of 100%
breastfeeding (but not off of breastfeeding completely, mind you - I
think I failed to make that distinction before - sorry). Wouldn't
supplementing with formula make everyone's life a little easier during
those periods where the baby wants to eat constantly?

I had reservations about 100% breastfeeding right from the start, but I
was willing to do it anyway. I guess the fact that my horrifyingly
idiotic skin problem simply isn't going away is just adding to the
problem, making me now more reluctant (and add the DH factor and I guess
I've got three issues going on, here). I just don't know what to do.
It's all very depressing. I'm really peed off about the skin problem.
It hit me only last week that it wasn't going to be gone by the time I
give birth. I feel like such an idiot. I can't believe I actually
thought it would be gone, all of a sudden, when I've been fighting it
for 10 years. I was obviously too focussed on simply getting the baby
in the first place.

Anyway, I'm not making any firm decisions right now. I just need more
info to help me later, although I think I'll need to at least decide
what pump to get. If I want a PIS, for e.g., I will have to either
order it or go hunting around in Toronto, since I've never seen anything
other than the Isis pumps in the stores in my city.

There is one final thing that I will add, and only to help make it more
obvious to people why I refuse to let the baby come into contact with
the affected areas. It's contagious. It only seems to affect people
with weaker than normal immune systems, though (so DH has no problems
with it and has no qualms about touching me, and the "weaker than normal
immune system" thing definitely describes me perfectly). I imagine that
a newborn would be at greater risk than, say, my DH, though. I will not
allow my baby to get this, and I don't care what other people think (I'm
thinking particularly of those who *know* about the problem and who
still expect me to breastfeed).

I think I'm going on and on far too much about this. I'm driving myself
nuts. I think I need to wait and talk to the midwife and most likely
that other doctor.

OK, that's it from me. :-) I've said far too much.