teen & inappropriate peeing

In article ,
"Andrea Smith" wrote:

My niece has come to spend the summer with us. She lives several states
away on an Indian reservation
because when she was very young her mother married an american indian &
moved on to his reservation
with him. She does not at all look indian (blond hair/blue eyes) but has
been raised in that culture.

My niece is now 16 years old, & her mother has been called to active
military duty for 2 months overseas.
We have have noticed that my daughter is very open about peeing. Things
like leaving the door to the bath
room partially open when peeing, or peeing outside in the open.

For example, just yesterday we were coming home from a outdoor concert. All
she wore for the duration
of the concert was a bikini top & bottom. During the concert she needed to
pee so she got up,
went to some bushes about 20 feet away, squated and put her hand down to
pull her bikini to
one side and begain peeing!!!!! Later, For the ride home she put on shorts
over her bikini bottom. About half
way home (an hour drive) she was VERY insistant that we need to stop, so we
stopped at a highway view point.
There she jumped out of the vehicle, took about 3 steps, then pulled down
both her shorts and bikini (COMPLETELY
exposing her pubic area/butt) and peed!!!!!!!! She then stepped out of her
shorts and bikini bottom, and then
pulled up her shorts. When she got back in the car, we asked her why she
did that. Her response was that
she was so desperate to pee that she had badly wet her bikini and didn't
want to ride home in her wetness.

We suspect that living for years on a reservation has caused distorted
values. We instructed her that
in the future she is NOT to expose her private area for any reason, even if
it is to pee. She argued that
sometimes desperation makes her have to do those things and that people
understand and don't care anyway.
We explained to her that dropping her shorts or bikini, thus exposing her
pubic area and butt, are not
acceptable. She asked what she should have done at the view point during
the ride home. We explained
that she should have used a bathroom before we left, but that she could have
peed thru her shorts to the ground
and then used a towel or blanket to cover up her wet shorts. She then
yelled that she would be naked before
she would pee in her pants.

She claims that on the reservation she can pee with people around and they
don't care. She also claims
that on the reservation she can be naked for certain spiritual functions she
called "sweat lodge" and that
others don't care.

We think she is reacting and trying to cause trouble because she misses her
mother.

We can't imagine that any of this is as acceptable as she claims for a
person her age.

We are about at our wits end. I am nearly ready to send her to a child
psychologist. Any ideas here?



Assuming you are not a troll . . .

It is true that most Native cultures have a different attitude towards
bodily functions (and parts) than are traditional in Western cultures.
When I was pregnant, for example, it never occurred to me to put my
first morning urine sample in a paper bag to hide it on my way to the
doctor's appointment; it took me a while to realize that having my
(perfectly normal, perfectly sterile) urine in a glass container where
others could see it was something others found embarrassing. Once I
figured that out, I carried it in a paper bag. (I still don't get it;
everyone KNOWS what's in the bag -- why is that more OK? -- but I'm
willing to accept that it is a cultural thing and live with it, even
while finding it somewhat amusing.)

I don't know that your neice's behavior would be acceptable on the Rez,
or that it would not be; I couldn't begin to know without knowing WHICH
Rez, and which Native American culture -- there are significant
differences. Most would NOT have men and women both naked in the same
sweat lodge; however, nudity in a single sex sweat lodge is common.
I'm not personally familiar with any that accept casual nudity in mixed
gender setting on the part of people past puberty, but that doesn't mean
it doesn't exist. Most are certainly less hung up about nudity or
peeing or whatever.

If you are not a troll and are truely concerned about your neice, please
spend some time learning about the culture she has been raised in.
Living on a reservation doesn't cause "distorted values" (what a
terrible phrase!); it may, however, mean she has values that are
unfamiliar to you. If she's going to live in the predominantly white
culture now, she has to learn what that means, and learn the areas where
there are differences. You can help that by taking the time to study
and learn for yourself.

As a person who was raised "bi culturally", it was often confusing to me
to try to figure stuff out, and, even at my advanced age, I'm known to
mess it up. You can help by trying to learn about her culture without
using phrases like "distorted values" to describe the culture on the Rez.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

It sounds like this is her life from the reservation she lived on. I don't
think other people are going to care about seeing her pee in public. It
bothers you more than anyone else because you fear what others must think of
you that *your* niece does this in public. I have seen plenty of guys stop
their cars on the freeway, get out and pee on the side of the road. If you
gotta go, you go. I agree with your niece about not wanting to pee in her
pants, too. Imagine what our culture looks like to her. As long as she is
being respectful and nice to be with, I think that is all that matters. Her
mom will be home in two months and your niece will go back to what she calls
home. She probably does miss her mom, but she is not acting out. Rather, she
is just living her life the way she has only known. Maybe you can meet her
halfway, and ask her if she doesn't mind, she can pee anywhere she wants
outside but to be a little discreet about it (if it's on the road, maybe she
can go into some trees rather than stand out in public, etc.) If you send
her to a child psychologist or insist on her *not* to do what is considered
normal to her and the reservation, you will create quite a conflict with the
mother. Try to hang in there for two months. It will go by very quickly.

Susan
"Andrea Smith" wrote in message
...
My niece has come to spend the summer with us. She lives several states
away on an Indian reservation
because when she was very young her mother married an american indian &
moved on to his reservation
with him. She does not at all look indian (blond hair/blue eyes) but has
been raised in that culture.

My niece is now 16 years old, & her mother has been called to active
military duty for 2 months overseas.
We have have noticed that my daughter is very open about peeing. Things
like leaving the door to the bath
room partially open when peeing, or peeing outside in the open.

For example, just yesterday we were coming home from a outdoor concert.
All
she wore for the duration
of the concert was a bikini top & bottom. During the concert she needed
to
pee so she got up,
went to some bushes about 20 feet away, squated and put her hand down to
pull her bikini to
one side and begain peeing!!!!! Later, For the ride home she put on
shorts
over her bikini bottom. About half
way home (an hour drive) she was VERY insistant that we need to stop, so
we
stopped at a highway view point.
There she jumped out of the vehicle, took about 3 steps, then pulled down
both her shorts and bikini (COMPLETELY
exposing her pubic area/butt) and peed!!!!!!!! She then stepped out of
her
shorts and bikini bottom, and then
pulled up her shorts. When she got back in the car, we asked her why she
did that. Her response was that
she was so desperate to pee that she had badly wet her bikini and didn't
want to ride home in her wetness.

We suspect that living for years on a reservation has caused distorted
values. We instructed her that
in the future she is NOT to expose her private area for any reason, even
if
it is to pee. She argued that
sometimes desperation makes her have to do those things and that people
understand and don't care anyway.
We explained to her that dropping her shorts or bikini, thus exposing her
pubic area and butt, are not
acceptable. She asked what she should have done at the view point during
the ride home. We explained
that she should have used a bathroom before we left, but that she could
have
peed thru her shorts to the ground
and then used a towel or blanket to cover up her wet shorts. She then
yelled that she would be naked before
she would pee in her pants.

She claims that on the reservation she can pee with people around and they
don't care. She also claims
that on the reservation she can be naked for certain spiritual functions
she
called "sweat lodge" and that
others don't care.

We think she is reacting and trying to cause trouble because she misses
her
mother.

We can't imagine that any of this is as acceptable as she claims for a
person her age.

We are about at our wits end. I am nearly ready to send her to a child
psychologist. Any ideas here?

"Andrea Smith" wrote in message ...
My niece has come to spend the summer with us. She lives several states
away on an Indian reservation
because when she was very young her mother married an american indian &
moved on to his reservation
with him. She does not at all look indian (blond hair/blue eyes) but has
been raised in that culture.

So, if she looked more "Indian" would the behavior you describe be
more palatable to you? More acceptable?

You probably aren't aware of it but you started off with a racist
mindset. It's a good place for you to begin looking at YOU, rather
than her.

My niece is now 16 years old, & her mother has been called to active
military duty for 2 months overseas.
We have have noticed that my daughter is very open about peeing. Things
like leaving the door to the bath
room partially open when peeing, or peeing outside in the open.

I thought you were talkinga about your "neice". How did this become
"my daughter" or are you referring to your child rather than your
sister's child?

For example, just yesterday we were coming home from a outdoor concert. All
she wore for the duration
of the concert was a bikini top & bottom. During the concert she needed to
pee so she got up,
went to some bushes about 20 feet away, squated and put her hand down to
pull her bikini to
one side and begain peeing!!!!! Later, For the ride home she put on shorts
over her bikini bottom. About half
way home (an hour drive) she was VERY insistant that we need to stop, so we
stopped at a highway view point.
There she jumped out of the vehicle, took about 3 steps, then pulled down
both her shorts and bikini (COMPLETELY
exposing her pubic area/butt) and peed!!!!!!!! She then stepped out of her
shorts and bikini bottom, and then
pulled up her shorts. When she got back in the car, we asked her why she
did that. Her response was that
she was so desperate to pee that she had badly wet her bikini and didn't
want to ride home in her wetness.

I'm beginning to think this is nothing more than a voyeurs fantasy
that titillates you by the relating to others.

Surely there are places on the Web that provide surcease for your
kind?

We suspect that living for years on a reservation has caused distorted
values.

I suspect that those who live on reservations, upon seeing their own
people return after many years of absense, have a similar reaction to
those behaviors that have resulted from years of living OFF the
reservation.

Both views demonstrate a limitation of scope of awareness. I can cut
the isolated folks on the reservation a bit of slack, but hardly the
more sophisticated resident of a wider world.

You really do have a stick up your butt, don't you?

We instructed her that
in the future she is NOT to expose her private area for any reason, even if
it is to pee. She argued that
sometimes desperation makes her have to do those things and that people
understand and don't care anyway.

You reacted. You have no idea if this behavior has anything to do at
all with life on the reservation, do you?

We explained to her that dropping her shorts or bikini, thus exposing her
pubic area and butt, are not
acceptable. She asked what she should have done at the view point during
the ride home. We explained
that she should have used a bathroom before we left, but that she could have
peed thru her shorts to the ground
and then used a towel or blanket to cover up her wet shorts. She then
yelled that she would be naked before
she would pee in her pants.

She claims that on the reservation she can pee with people around and they
don't care. She also claims
that on the reservation she can be naked for certain spiritual functions she
called "sweat lodge" and that
others don't care.

Your racist assumptions are noted. In some tribes, bands, groups,
modesty is extreme, in others not. Assuming all are the same because
they are all "Indians" is not the best way to go here.

We think she is reacting and trying to cause trouble because she misses her
mother.

But you'll still try to address the peeing issue as something special,
won't you?

We can't imagine that any of this is as acceptable as she claims for a
person her age.

You aren't her, are you then? You don't know what is acceptable and
not for her.

We are about at our wits end. I am nearly ready to send her to a child
psychologist. Any ideas here?

Sure, admit you are just too full of yourself, address the issue
without your rank prejudice, and see if you can help her with her
losses you identified above.

Or admit that you are a silly little adolescent boy one hand typing at
the keyboard and congratulating yourself on fooling the adults.

Kane

On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:56:14 -0700, "Andrea Smith"
wrote:


My niece is now 16 years old, & her mother has been called to active
military duty for 2 months overseas.
We have have noticed that my daughter is very open about peeing. Things
like leaving the door to the bath
room partially open when peeing, or peeing outside in the open.

For example,
*snip!

This is not as rare as you may think. This is cultural differance
rather than a moral problem.

We suspect that living for years on a reservation has caused distorted
values.
I would view this as "differant values" rather than distorted.

Remember there are cultures where a woman may not even show her
face in public. Other cultures are permissive enough that no clothes
are required.

We think she is reacting and trying to cause trouble because she misses her
mother.
Of course, she is reacting to missing her mother and her home. She
may not be actively "trying" to cause trouble.

Remember that she is the child and needs your understanding. She
sounds pretty honest and open. She probably needs education about your
culture and values so she can gradually adjust.

We can't imagine that any of this is as acceptable as she claims for a
person her age.

This does seem impossible, doesn't it? But from my experience, it
is likely your niece is telling the truth as she knows it. (I have had
hundreds of foster children over 20+ years. Several Tribes have
entrusted me with their children. They are good children and grow to
be good adults with good values.)

Steve in Olympia

Stop looking at her pubes and let her pee. Although, I do hear that in some
states the laws are so backward that exposing yourself, even to pee on the
side of the road, is considered a form of sexual harassment. Tell her to go
behind a tree in that case; but let her pee. It's, after all, one of the
most natural functions of life.

AJPDLA

"Andrea Smith" wrote in message
...
My niece has come to spend the summer with us. She lives several states
away on an Indian reservation
because when she was very young her mother married an american indian &
moved on to his reservation
with him. She does not at all look indian (blond hair/blue eyes) but has
been raised in that culture.

My niece is now 16 years old, & her mother has been called to active
military duty for 2 months overseas.
We have have noticed that my daughter is very open about peeing. Things
like leaving the door to the bath
room partially open when peeing, or peeing outside in the open.

For example, just yesterday we were coming home from a outdoor concert.
All
she wore for the duration
of the concert was a bikini top & bottom. During the concert she needed
to
pee so she got up,
went to some bushes about 20 feet away, squated and put her hand down to
pull her bikini to
one side and begain peeing!!!!! Later, For the ride home she put on
shorts
over her bikini bottom. About half
way home (an hour drive) she was VERY insistant that we need to stop, so
we
stopped at a highway view point.
There she jumped out of the vehicle, took about 3 steps, then pulled down
both her shorts and bikini (COMPLETELY
exposing her pubic area/butt) and peed!!!!!!!! She then stepped out of
her
shorts and bikini bottom, and then
pulled up her shorts. When she got back in the car, we asked her why she
did that. Her response was that
she was so desperate to pee that she had badly wet her bikini and didn't
want to ride home in her wetness.

We suspect that living for years on a reservation has caused distorted
values. We instructed her that
in the future she is NOT to expose her private area for any reason, even
if
it is to pee. She argued that
sometimes desperation makes her have to do those things and that people
understand and don't care anyway.
We explained to her that dropping her shorts or bikini, thus exposing her
pubic area and butt, are not
acceptable. She asked what she should have done at the view point during
the ride home. We explained
that she should have used a bathroom before we left, but that she could
have
peed thru her shorts to the ground
and then used a towel or blanket to cover up her wet shorts. She then
yelled that she would be naked before
she would pee in her pants.

She claims that on the reservation she can pee with people around and they
don't care. She also claims
that on the reservation she can be naked for certain spiritual functions
she
called "sweat lodge" and that
others don't care.

We think she is reacting and trying to cause trouble because she misses
her
mother.

We can't imagine that any of this is as acceptable as she claims for a
person her age.

We are about at our wits end. I am nearly ready to send her to a child
psychologist. Any ideas here?