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What about circumcision and pain relief for baby



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 11th 03, 06:15 AM
CBI
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Default What about circumcision and pain relief for baby



"Deirdre" wrote in message
...
http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ...r/horror.shtml

Please research this more in the time that's left. Your son will thank

you.

Doing some research is a good idea. Sites like medscape, webmd, the
AMA(http://www.ama-assn.org/), or the AAP (http://www.aap.org/) would
probably be better sources than a site that uses the word "horror" twice
just in the URL.

--
CBI, MD


  #22  
Old December 11th 03, 06:17 AM
PF Riley
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Default What about circumcision and pain relief for baby

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:46:57 +1300, "ChrisScaife"
wrote:

Dear Tanya,
In anglo-saxon countries circumcision is frowned upon.

Our religion teaches that God created us in his own image. To change it is
to criticise God.


Just curious... do you believe that God has a penis?

Our science teaches that we evolved to survive and all parts of us have a
purpose, even if we do not understand them.


We evolved to survive, not to thrive. Put down that cheeseburger!

PF
  #23  
Old December 11th 03, 06:21 AM
PF Riley
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Default What about circumcision and pain relief for baby

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:06:51 -0500, "Liz" wrote:

Circumcision was designed to reduce a boy's sexual appetite by reducing the
amount of pleasure sexual stimulation can provide him. According to Father
Magazine, depending on the cut, 20 to 80% of the sexually sensitive tissue
is removed.


Bull****. How the hell do you know even WHO "designed" circumcision, a
practice dating back thousands upon thousands of years, let alone WHY.

Some folks argue that circumcision cures a tight foreskin, but today the
usual medical treatment for a tight foreskin is stretching, not
circumcision.


No, the "usual medical treatment" for phimosis is topical steroids. Do
not "stretch" a foreskin.

PF
  #24  
Old December 11th 03, 06:24 AM
PF Riley
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Default What about circumcision and pain relief for baby

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 02:11:59 GMT, "Slave"
wrote:

Please read these before you do the circumcision!
Remember one important thing, its his reproductive organ and not yours.

"First do no harm"


When a surgeon cuts you open to remove your appendix, isn't he
"harming" you by cutting through your abdominal wall? What would you
think if he was preparing the scalpel and then said, "Wait, I must
first do no harm! Reverse the anesthetic! The operation is canceled!"

More and more parents are choosing NOT to have it done because the have
become informed.


Good for them.

The foreskin is a functioning sexual organ and doesn't
separate from the penis until the child is 9mos-3yrs old.


Sometimes even later.

So this tells you
that is has to be ripped away from the head of the penis before its cut off.


It's called "lysis of adhesions."

Most doctors DO NOT use pain medications.


Bull****.

They strap the child in a
"circumstraint" and cover his face with a cloth.


Bull****.

PF
  #25  
Old December 11th 03, 06:27 AM
Chotii
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Default What about circumcision and pain relief for baby


"PF Riley" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 02:11:59 GMT, "Slave"
wrote:



They strap the child in a
"circumstraint" and cover his face with a cloth.


Bull****.


I couldn't speak to the face-cloth, but when I was an inpatient for 2 months
during my recent pregnancy, I often had ultrasounds performed in the same
room the doctors use for circumcisions. The circumstraint was in that room,
straps and all.

--angela


  #26  
Old December 11th 03, 06:37 AM
Circe
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Default What about circumcision and pain relief for baby

"T" wrote in message
et...
I am having sons circumcision tomorrow. I had one other question.
They do not use pain killer because of swelling, is there something that

the
doc can use that will not swell. I heard of a cream that they can put on

to
minimize pain.

From the AAP's most recent policy statement on infant circumcision:

"
ANALGESIA

There is considerable evidence that newborns who are circumcised without
analgesia experience pain and physiologic stress. Neonatal physiologic
responses to circumcision pain include changes in heart rate, blood
pressure, oxygen saturation, and cortisol levels.36-39 One report has noted
that circumcised infants exhibit a stronger pain response to subsequent
routine immunization than do uncircumcised infants.40 Several methods to
provide analgesia for circumcision have been evaluated.

Eutectic Mixture of Local Anesthetics (EMLA Cream)

EMLA cream, containing 2.5% lidocaine and 2.5% prilocaine, attenuates the
pain response to circumcision when applied 60 to 90 minutes before the
procedure. Compared with placebo groups, neonates who had EMLA cream applied
spend less time crying and have smaller increases in heart rate during
circumcisions.41-43 The analgesic effect is limited during the phases
associated with extensive tissue trauma such as during lysis of adhesions
and tightening of the clamp.42,43

Ideally, 1 to 2 g of EMLA cream is applied to the distal half of the penis,
which then is wrapped in an occlusive dressing. There is a theoretic concern
about the potential for neonates to develop methemoglobinemia after the
application of EMLA cream, because a metabolite of prilocaine can oxidize
hemoglobin to methemoglobin. When measured, blood levels of methemoglobin in
neonates after the application of 1 g of EMLA cream have been well below
toxic levels.42-46 Two cases of methemoglobinemia in infants occurred after
3 g of EMLA cream was applied; in 1 of these cases, the infant also was

receiving sulfamethoxazole.47,48 EMLA cream should not be used in neonates
who are receiving other drugs known to induce methemoglobinemia.

Dorsal Penile Nerve Block (DPNB)

DPNB is very effective in reducing the behavioral and physiologic indicators
of pain caused by circumcision. Compared with control subjects who received
no analgesia, neonates with DPNB cry 45% to 76% less,39,49-51 have 34% to
50% smaller increases in heart rate,50,52 and have smaller decreases in
oxygen saturation during the procedure.39,52 Additionally, DPNB lidocaine
attenuates the adrenocortical stress response compared with control subjects
who received no injections or injections of saline.49 The technique of Kirya
and Werthmann is used most commonly to perform the block.53 A 27-gauge
needle is used to inject the 0.4 mL of 1% lidocaine, to be administered at
both the 10- and 2- o'clock positions at the base of the penis. The needle
is directed posteromedially 3 to 5 mm on each side until Buck's fascia is
entered. After aspiration, the local anesthetic is injected. Systemic
lidocaine levels obtained with use of this technique demonstrated peak
concentrations at 60 minutes, well below toxic ranges.52 Several studies
evaluating the efficacy of DPNB reported bruising as the most frequent
complication.49,50,54,55 Hematomas were rarely seen and caused no long-term
injury.50,56 A single report of penile necrosis may have been secondary to
the surgical technique rather than to the DPNB.57

Subcutaneous Ring Block

A subcutaneous circumferential ring of 0.8 mL of 1% lidocaine without
epinephrine at the midshaft of the penis was found to be more effective than
EMLA cream or DPNB in a recent study.43 Although all treatment groups
experienced an attenuated pain response, the ring block appeared to prevent
crying and increases in heart rate more consistently than did EMLA cream or
DPNB throughout all stages of circumcision. In another study, after a
subcutaneous injection of lidocaine had been given at the level of the
corona, it was noted that fewer infants cried during the dissection of the
foreskin, placement of the bell, and clamping of the Gomco, compared with
those infants with a DPNB.58 Additionally, the cortisol response was
diminished in the subcutaneous group compared with the DPNB group.58 No
complications of this simple and highly effective technique have been
reported.

Others

Sucrose on a pacifier has been demonstrated to be more effective than water
for decreasing cries during circumcision.59 Acetaminophen may provide
analgesia after the immediate postoperative period.60 Neither technique is
sufficient for the operative pain and cannot be recommended as the sole
method of analgesia. A more physiologic positioning of the infant in a
padded environment also may decrease distress during the procedure.61

In summary, analgesia is safe and effective in reducing the procedural pain
associated with circumcision and, therefore, adequate analgesia should be
provided if neonatal circumcision is performed. EMLA cream, DPNB, and a
subcutaneous ring block are options, although the subcutaneous ring block
may provide the most effective analgesia."

You can read the whole thing at http://www.aap.org/policy/re9850.html. And
if your son's surgeon is unwilling to do what the AAP recommends with regard
to analgesia during circumcision (which is to use it), you should
*certainly* find another surgeon who *will* do the surgery according to best
established practice.

Also, why is it best practice to NOT do circumcision. I figure since my
first son is circ. I should have 2nd son also.


This is about the weakest justification I can imagine for doing something
which you now know is not the best practice. For heaven's sake! If your
first child was born before the Back to Sleep campaign to prevent SIDS came
into existence, would you insist on putting your next baby to sleep on his
belly to be "fair"? Do you feel you have to make every parenting mistake
with your second child that you made with your first in the interest of
equality?

The best practices in child care and medicine are always changing as more
information is gained. If you *know* that circumcision is no longer
recommended by medical professionals, why would you do it again?

My first boy is circumcised because, at the time he was born, my husband
felt it was best and I didn't have a strong enough opinion on the matter to
disagree. My second boy is intact because neither my husband or I thought it
was the right thing to do any more. I wouldn't have *considered* having my
youngest son's penis altered just to make them "match," any more than I'd
consider having the youngest's hair dyed so it would be the same color as
his brother's.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [a quarter to 2] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"Custom fabracation" -- Auto body shop sign

Daddy: You're up with the chickens this morning.
Aurora: No, I'm up with my dolls!

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman


  #27  
Old December 11th 03, 07:16 AM
C&J
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Default What about circumcision and pain relief for baby


"Chotii" wrote in message
...

"PF Riley" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 02:11:59 GMT, "Slave"
wrote:



They strap the child in a
"circumstraint" and cover his face with a cloth.


Bull****.


I couldn't speak to the face-cloth, but when I was an inpatient for 2

months
during my recent pregnancy, I often had ultrasounds performed in the same
room the doctors use for circumcisions. The circumstraint was in that

room,
straps and all.

--angela


They also used straps on me when doing my surgery.
They even used them on my DD when she was 2 weeks old in order to administer
her IV.

Crystal
37 weeks 5 days & counting!!




  #28  
Old December 11th 03, 08:28 AM
Slave
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Posts: n/a
Default What about circumcision and pain relief for baby

Ok PF Riley,

"First do no harm" is the doctors creedo. Removing an appendix would be an
emergency! Circumcisions are not an emergency merely a cosmetic
afterthought. It means exactly what is says, FIRST do no harm. Why harm an
innocent child when not necesary? Your answer to that was plain dumb.
Sorry to be rude but your comments to my post and others was pretty rude.
Don't need to cuss either. They do strap a child in a circumstraint,
obviously you didn't look and the website link. Betcha if they didn't that
baby would jump out of its skin and the doctor would end up cutting the
whole thing off.

--




"Readers are plentiful; thinkers are rare."
~ Harriet Martineau

"PF Riley" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 02:11:59 GMT, "Slave"
wrote:

Please read these before you do the circumcision!
Remember one important thing, its his reproductive organ and not yours.

"First do no harm"


When a surgeon cuts you open to remove your appendix, isn't he
"harming" you by cutting through your abdominal wall? What would you
think if he was preparing the scalpel and then said, "Wait, I must
first do no harm! Reverse the anesthetic! The operation is canceled!"

More and more parents are choosing NOT to have it done because the have
become informed.


Good for them.

The foreskin is a functioning sexual organ and doesn't
separate from the penis until the child is 9mos-3yrs old.


Sometimes even later.

So this tells you
that is has to be ripped away from the head of the penis before its cut

off.

It's called "lysis of adhesions."

Most doctors DO NOT use pain medications.


Bull****.

They strap the child in a
"circumstraint" and cover his face with a cloth.


Bull****.

PF



  #29  
Old December 11th 03, 09:22 AM
john
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What about circumcision and pain relief for baby

"Chotii" wrote in message

The reason they amputate the foreskins of newborns and not 3 or 5 or 7 year
old kids is because older kids can tell you how much it hurts, and that they
don't want their penis cut. All a baby can do is cry. If you wouldn't
subject your older child to this, with or without pain killer, why would you
subject your newborn to it?


Should have been outlawed long ago. Bit like the way they wean babies
around 3 months before they can really complain

Lucky we never had external ******** at that age--you can bet they
would be chopping them off too
  #30  
Old December 11th 03, 09:40 AM
Kereru
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Posts: n/a
Default What about circumcision and pain relief for baby


"Chotii" wrote in message
...

"T" wrote in message
et...
I am having sons circumcision tomorrow. I had one other question.
They do not use pain killer because of swelling, is there something that

the
doc can use that will not swell. I heard of a cream that they can put

on
to
minimize pain.

Also, why is it best practice to NOT do circumcision. I figure since my
first son is circ. I should have 2nd son also. I know they are doing

the
circs now but taking less foreskin off.


Please don't say "circumcision", it's a euphemism, a neat, tidy way of
saying something that's awful to talk about straight out. Please say "They
are going to amputate my son's foreskin tomorrow". That's the honest

truth.
That is what they will do. They will peel his foreskin away from his

glans,
where it adheres like your fingernails adhere to your fingers, crush it

all
around to keep it from bleeding too much, and then cut it off. That's
amputation.

The reason they amputate the foreskins of newborns and not 3 or 5 or 7

year
old kids is because older kids can tell you how much it hurts, and that

they
don't want their penis cut. All a baby can do is cry. If you wouldn't
subject your older child to this, with or without pain killer, why would

you
subject your newborn to it?

What has the fact that you had this done to your first child, got to do

with
doing it to baby #2? Children can be different. They can have
different-colored eyes and hair, different color skin even. Why not
different penises?

The best reason NOT to do circumcision is it is *his* sexual organ, not
yours. *He* will be the one using it later in life, not you. It should be
*his* choice to alter his body, not yours (as long as there's no medical
problem that needs correction for the sake of his immediate health). The
head of the penis is intended to be covered except when erect. The head of
the penis is a mucous membrane, meant to be moist, shiny, and exceedingly
sensitive - not dry, dull, and exposed. Cutting away its natural cover
*may* be necessary under certain circumstances, but these are unusual,

*not*
the norm.

There's another reason not to do it: there is no way to know how much the
individual's penis will grow at puberty. The doctor will remove what looks
like the right amount, but when the boy grows into a man, his penis can

grow
larger than what the remaining skin can accommodate. Such boys may wake in
the mornings with their sheets bloody, because the skin of the penis has
torn in the night. Such boys may have skin so tight it becomes abraded

and
even bloody from friction during intercourse. Such boys may well have a
smaller, shorter penis than nature has designed for them, because the

tight
skin won't allow full expansion during erection. Is this really what you
want for your son? Do you even want to risk it?

Please consider the reality of your choice, because this is what you're
choosing. Maybe it will turn out okay. Maybe it won't. But *YOU* won't be
the one who has to live with it. He will.

--angela



Here's how I decided

Compare the potential pain and suffering that having a foreskin would be
*likely* to cause (virtually nil) with the pain potential pain and suffering
cause by a circumcision (almost certainly a lot in the short term and a
possibility of more in the long term) and it's pretty simple. In the absence
of a real medical reason or religious belief I see no reason why anyone
would decide to circumcise.

And that's all I have to say about that :-)

Judy Mum to two boys with untouched penises



 




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