UPDATE: playgroup fiasco

"Anonymama" wrote:

In article Ra9Df.1258$ap3.532@trndny03,
"Stephanie" wrote:

"Banty" wrote in message

I still can't get over it - nobody has ever called me a Stepford Wife
before!

Banty



I'm so ignorant, I don't even know what it is.

It's a reference to a 1974 movie (later remade) where the husbands of
uppity women in a nice American suburb replace their wives with demure,
passive robots. Here's Banty and some friends, happily shopping:

http://www.bergen-filmklubb.no/images/The_Stepford_Wives.jpg

I prefer the book to the movies (especially the latest movie, which was just
awful.)

rj

In article Ra9Df.1258$ap3.532@trndny03,
"Stephanie" wrote:

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Nan says...

On 28 Jan 2006 04:42:12 -0800, Banty wrote:

In article .com, -L.
says...


Banty wrote:
ROTFL!

Oh, man, I've been called a stepford wife. :-D

Banty

It's not funny. It's pathetic. Really.

It's just that it's such a - new and unexpected experience!

Banty

*snort*
Gotta love it when someone lacks the imagination to come up with
anything better than a Hollywood reference.


I still can't get over it - nobody has ever called me a Stepford Wife
before!

Banty



I'm so ignorant, I don't even know what it is.



Is this dating those of us who knew right away? I know the movie was
remade, but the remake was (imho) pretty awful, and not widely seen, so
maybe you have to be old enough to have seen the original (very creepy!)
movie to really get this.

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"bizby40" ) writes:
I'm sorry to say this Catherine, but this is shockingly
bad advice, and not what I would have expected from
you. A public confrontation pitched to be purposely
overheard? Making eye-contact with the other
parents to try to sway them to your side? "Sincerely"
using sign-language when she has seen her speak
with other parents and knows that she is not actually
hard of hearing? I can't believe you would advocate
for such rude behavior!

Oh, about the sign language: I actually meant
using it only if she really is sincere, that is, if
she really believes the person might be deaf.
If she's seen her speak quietly with others, obviously
understanding and not reading lips, then I wouldn't
suggest using the sign language or asking about deafness.

One possibility is that the woman is hard of hearing
and can lipread some people but not others, and just
socializes with the ones she's able to lipread.
This would be a case where a bit of sign language
might help. She may be trying to pretend not to
be deaf, though.

About the other stuff: you're entitled to your
opinion. I'm not convinced that it's bad advice.

In the absence of some evidence of racism, I
think the woman is entitled to be unfriendly if
she wants.

I disagree. I think it's wrong of her to be
unfriendly if it's for racial reasons, whether or
not there is evidence that that is the reason.

A loud confrontation is not necessarily bad IMO.
I don't mean very loud, shouting; I just mean
loud enough that others can overhear. A
confrontation can bring information out into the
open. Sometimes that's good.

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
To "-L.":

I guess it's either some sort of discrimination, or a social
thing like shyness.

Suppose it's a social thing. Maybe she and her family are
the quiet type. Maybe they like to come to the playgroup and
interact with two or three other children but large numbers are
just overwhelming to them. Maybe she can't think of any more
polite way to turn people away than just ignoring them. (I'd
have trouble with that myself.) Maybe she thinks it's rude
to stand there holding out a toy for minutes at a time when the
other person is obviously not interested.

I don't let it go on that long. If she doesn't respond to him, I
usually steer him away. I think he has only approached her maybe 3
times altogether.

Maybe she thinks
the best way to teach a 2-year-old not to do this is to
continue ignoring him.

Possibly.

Possibly your children
are too energetic for her or have been seen being a bit
aggressive (hitting, grabbing), possibly while you weren't
looking??

He's never unattended and he is *far* from agressive. He's a total
follower - will approach other kids, sit next to them and watch what
they do long before he tries to interact. The only people he has ever
tried to hit is DH and I when he didn't want to do something.



Possibly she looks for certain specific personality
types and relates to them and ignores everyone else??
Maybe her kids have privately told her they're afraid of,
or don't like, your child for some reason??

I can't see how - we have only been around them once when this first
happened and then a couple more times.


If it's a racial thing: Here's an idea for how to handle it
but I don't know whether it's a good idea or not. You could
approach her and say fairly loudly (loud enough for others
to hear) something like "Excuse me -- I'd like to find out
whether you're interested in chatting with me occasionally?"
If she doesn't answer, you can say loud enough for others
to hear (but not shouting), "I feel ignored by name."
"I feel excluded by name." "I feel it's reasonable at
least to get an answer from you, yes or no, whether you're
interested in chatting." "Excuse me: are you hard of hearing?"
(said in front of her, using sign language at the same time,
but politely and sincerely)
You can look around and try to make eye contact with others
while saying these things. There is the possibility that she (or
even possibly others in the room) will respond with open
racial hatred.

Not likely. hardly anyone one will openly be racist anymore - at least
not here in Portland.


If you're prepared for this possibility, you
may be able to remain calm and look dignified, saying
something like "I feel I'm being subjected to racism."
They may just be making themselves look bad in front of
any reasonable people in the room. I think that saying
calmly "I believe racism is wrong." "I believe I have
a right to ..." looks better than getting upset, and can
gain you some respect.

I hope this is helpful. No guarantees. I hope you
figure out a way of handling it that works for you.

I think I will ask my friend if she has noticed the same behavior with
herm (the ignoring lady) and any other kids. My little guy is funny
in that he likes to approach the adults, sit by them, and hand them
toys. Maybe she just doesn't want to "cross a line" by interacting
with him. Some people are weird about letting their kids interact with
adults - she may feel this way. I don't mind that he does this as long
as the adult doesn't mind - and everyone else loves him (or seems to)
and thinks he's cute in the way he does it.

-L.

"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...
"bizby40" ) writes:
In the absence of some evidence of racism, I
think the woman is entitled to be unfriendly if
she wants.

I disagree. I think it's wrong of her to be
unfriendly if it's for racial reasons, whether or
not there is evidence that that is the reason.

It is wrong to be unfriendly for racial reasons, even if one doesn't give
evidence of the reason. However, I think it would be wrong to confront
someone about racism when the person is merely unfriendly on the grounds
that it might be racism. People have the right to be unfriendly.

Personally, if a person were racist against me, I think nothing I do in the
way of confrontation would do anything to change them. In fact, I would
probably be reaffirming their beliefs.

I did meet a guy with a swastika on his forehead once. Since I was in a
service type industry, I pretended not to notice and served him like I did
everyone else, with a friendly smile. The guy was sweet, at least on that
level. You'd think with a swastika on his forehead, he'd have wanted
someone else to serve him or maybe have been unkind. Nope, it was like it
wasn't there.

"-L." wrote in message
ups.com...

Catherine Woodgold wrote:

Possibly she looks for certain specific personality
types and relates to them and ignores everyone else??
Maybe her kids have privately told her they're afraid of,
or don't like, your child for some reason??

I can't see how - we have only been around them once when this first
happened and then a couple more times.

But personality type is easy to spot from the first meeting. I mean, you
may not really know someone, but you can spot the aggressive person, the shy
person, the social butterfly, etc.

In article ,
"toypup" wrote:

"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...
"bizby40" ) writes:
In the absence of some evidence of racism, I
think the woman is entitled to be unfriendly if
she wants.

I disagree. I think it's wrong of her to be
unfriendly if it's for racial reasons, whether or
not there is evidence that that is the reason.

It is wrong to be unfriendly for racial reasons, even if one doesn't give
evidence of the reason. However, I think it would be wrong to confront
someone about racism when the person is merely unfriendly on the grounds
that it might be racism. People have the right to be unfriendly.

Personally, if a person were racist against me, I think nothing I do in the
way of confrontation would do anything to change them. In fact, I would
probably be reaffirming their beliefs.

I did meet a guy with a swastika on his forehead once. Since I was in a
service type industry, I pretended not to notice and served him like I did
everyone else, with a friendly smile. The guy was sweet, at least on that
level. You'd think with a swastika on his forehead, he'd have wanted
someone else to serve him or maybe have been unkind. Nope, it was like it
wasn't there.



One of the problems with tats is that they're so permanent. Maybe the
guy changed his attitude.

(Or maybe I work to hard at trying to see the positive possibilities.)

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

toypup wrote:

I can't see how - we have only been around them once when this first
happened and then a couple more times.

But personality type is easy to spot from the first meeting. I mean, you
may not really know someone, but you can spot the aggressive person, the shy
person, the social butterfly, etc.

I can't see how I could make that judgement being around a person only
once. I mean, we are all there supposedly for the same reason - so our
kids can play and so we can talk to other Moms (that's sort of the
charter). I assume everyone is nice and friendly unless proven
otherwise. This woman is the only one who is unfriendly (at least to
us). In fact, most Moms sort of go out of their way to welcome
newcomers or people they haven't met before. It's an exceptionally
welcoming group. The only other time there was another African
American child there, this lady wasn't there, so I couldn't see how she
reacted to him. I have no idea if her reaction is based in racism or
not, but I can't think of any other reason she would act that way
toward him.

Also, I never would label a child agressive unless I saw them blatantly
smacking another child or something. DS is *far* from aggressive - he
is a bit stand-offish at first and very gentle, especially with other
kids. He's the epitome of the easy-going kid, has a sweet expression
nearly all the time, etc. I get complimented all the time on what a
sweet boy he is - even by strangers who just see him casually.

The whole thing is just weird. The only other thing I can think of is
that she has been coming to this playgroup for a long time and we are
fairly new to it. It is possible that she doesn't like the fact that
more people are joining (thus the playspace is becoming more crowded),
or something.

-L.

toypup wrote:

It is wrong to be unfriendly for racial reasons, even if one doesn't give
evidence of the reason. However, I think it would be wrong to confront
someone about racism when the person is merely unfriendly on the grounds
that it might be racism. People have the right to be unfriendly.

You're right - they do, but it sort of defeats the purpose of going to
a playgroup that is set up for kids to meet and play, and for Moms to
socialize.



Personally, if a person were racist against me, I think nothing I do in the
way of confrontation would do anything to change them. In fact, I would
probably be reaffirming their beliefs.

Unless they said something loud enough for me to hear it, I wouldn't
confront someone. The worst I have had with DS is someone sneering at
us. I just sneered back. With DH we have had more blatant things
happen. Luckily we live in a liberal area where multiethnic people are
everywhere and interracial marriages are common. That's one main
reason we moved from North Carolina - simply too many racist assholes.


I did meet a guy with a swastika on his forehead once. Since I was in a
service type industry, I pretended not to notice and served him like I did
everyone else, with a friendly smile. The guy was sweet, at least on that
level. You'd think with a swastika on his forehead, he'd have wanted
someone else to serve him or maybe have been unkind. Nope, it was like it
wasn't there.

Well, you had something he needed...funny how that changes people's
tunes...

-L.
(posting from my other account)

"toypup" ) writes:
It is wrong to be unfriendly for racial reasons, even if one doesn't give
evidence of the reason. However, I think it would be wrong to confront
someone about racism when the person is merely unfriendly on the grounds
that it might be racism. People have the right to be unfriendly.

I don't think it would be wrong to ask someone whether they're
racist if that seems a likely possibility, but I think it would
be poor strategy and perhaps rude. I suggested using the word "racism" in
response to open racial hatred -- I meant stuff that would
obviously be considered racism by anyone in the room.

Personally, if a person were racist against me, I think nothing I do in the
way of confrontation would do anything to change them. In fact, I would
probably be reaffirming their beliefs.

That may be. I believe everyone is open to influence.
Usually the effect of influence is slight. For example,
someone might go from having a poor opinion of everyone
of a certain race to admitting that some people of that
race do good things sometimes. Later on, influenced by
someone else, they may shift further in their opinion.

I believe that sometimes stating someone's beliefs
explicitly helps them see how ridiculous those beliefs
are. I think racists often have not so much beliefs
as feelings. If you can state their beliefs: "You believe
that carrying on a conversation with me would be
harmful to you." they might notice that the beliefs don't
make any sense. It may be rare to have the opportunity
to do this effectively but I think it can happen.

Simply interacting normally with the person may help.
I think it's a lot easier to be racist if you don't
personally or closely know anyone in the group you're
racist against. (One reason racists try not to
get to know people?)