MAINTENANCE OF CHILD SUPPORT RECORDS

"frazil" wrote in message
...

Live Wire Cycles NY/LI wrote in message
...
This question is a very good one! *KEY* if you will.......
I want to have respect for all you good people out there by
answering,
but please respect my decision not to! (read between the lines) .. I
didn't
make a false statement by any means!
........................

George, most of us are happy to provide our opinion. But you also must
understand that, our experience results in a tendency to not be trusting.
Also our opinion is based on our experiences and our experiences alone. To
my knowledge, no one here is a lawyer, let alone a family law lawyer.
===
Good point, frazil!
===
And
lastly our opinions and our ability to respond is limited by the
information
you provide us. Even an attorney in the state of jurisdiction can't tell
you what will happen. They can only give you an opinion, based on their
knowledge of state law, prior court decisions, and the facts as you
present
them. The less anyone knows of these things the less valuable their
opinion
will be.
===
N'uther good point! Nice work, frazil :-)
===
===

A Lawyer reviewed and this agreement today and states that it goes back to
the original date of the divorce! SUPPORT VACATED!
(c)
That the provision of the Stipulation of Settlement dated Aug 4th, 1984
and of the judgement of divorce which provides that the defendent pay to
the plaintiff the sum of $25.00 per week as and for the support and
maintenance of the child, XXXXXXXXXXX is vacated, nunc pro tunc. Signed by
my ex and myself!

This agreement modifying custody and support is a certified copy! The lawyer
was representing her!

"gini52" wrote in message
...

"frazil" wrote in message
...

gini52 wrote in message
...

"Layne Barlow" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 04:10:11 GMT, "Live Wire Cycles NY/LI"
wrote:

MAINTENANCE OF CHILD SUPPORT RECORDS

My New York Divorce was effective Oct 4, 1984 and my ex had custody
for
approximately 34 months thereafter. The support order was vacated
on
Aug.
1,
1987 after I took custody (handicapped child). I never asked for
support
nor
received any. My ex has seen the child about 8 times in all these
years.
My
ex NOW (almost 20 years later) is claiming that she has never been
paid
support and has filed clam with a collections agency located in
Texas!
The
child and I have always resided in New York. The mother resides in
PA
now
as
she has recently moved there from New Jersey.

Question: How long do you have to maintain records of child
support?

Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide.....

George



This is an easy one.

First, the burden of proof is on her to prove she received no
support.
==
Untrue. All she needs to do is sign an affidavit of no support. The
burdon
is then on the
other parent to prove support was paid. Layne's post has many more
inaccuracies but
Moonshyne has addressed them well so I won't duplicate her response.
==
==

Her affidavit is worthless, in the absence of an order establishing
support
in the first instance.
===
Precisely, and I told the OP this in a subsequent post. My comment to
Layne
was
meant in a general sense. In George's case, the affidavit is worthless. In
"our" case,
the affidavit the ex signed was not worthless. She told the court we
didn't
pay. The court did not tell her to prove we didn't pay. The court told us
to
prove we did pay. We showed the court the receipts. The court said: "Ha!
That's not child support--that's $7,000. in gifts! You now owe her
$XXXXXX.XX." (Well, you get the pictu-)
===
===

The real danger area in family law as several of us have experienced an
"allegation" of non-payment of CS can become "proof" of non-payment without
any corroborating evidence to show the allegation is valid in the first
place. The really frustrating part of the family law system for me is how
they can partition off prior decisions as being legally valid and refuse a
father the right to show the prior decisions were based on BS.

gini52 wrote in message
...

"frazil" wrote in message
...

gini52 wrote in message
...

"Layne Barlow" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 04:10:11 GMT, "Live Wire Cycles NY/LI"
wrote:

MAINTENANCE OF CHILD SUPPORT RECORDS

My New York Divorce was effective Oct 4, 1984 and my ex had custody
for
approximately 34 months thereafter. The support order was vacated
on
Aug.
1,
1987 after I took custody (handicapped child). I never asked for
support
nor
received any. My ex has seen the child about 8 times in all these
years.
My
ex NOW (almost 20 years later) is claiming that she has never been
paid
support and has filed clam with a collections agency located in
Texas!
The
child and I have always resided in New York. The mother resides in
PA
now
as
she has recently moved there from New Jersey.

Question: How long do you have to maintain records of child
support?

Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide.....

George



This is an easy one.

First, the burden of proof is on her to prove she received no
support.
==
Untrue. All she needs to do is sign an affidavit of no support. The
burdon
is then on the
other parent to prove support was paid. Layne's post has many more
inaccuracies but
Moonshyne has addressed them well so I won't duplicate her response.
==
==

Her affidavit is worthless, in the absence of an order establishing
support
in the first instance.
===
Precisely, and I told the OP this in a subsequent post. My comment to
Layne
was
meant in a general sense. In George's case, the affidavit is worthless. In
"our" case,
the affidavit the ex signed was not worthless. She told the court we
didn't
pay. The court did not tell her to prove we didn't pay. The court told us
to
prove we did pay. We showed the court the receipts. The court said: "Ha!
That's not child support--that's $7,000. in gifts! You now owe her
$XXXXXX.XX." (Well, you get the pictu-)
===
===

Question, what was the form of the reciepts. Payment in cash is impossible
to prove. Payment in money order is next to impossible. Check is better,
at least you have an endorsement indicating reciept. A labled check
indicates the check's intent, but still not iron clad. Ganishment, by an
employer, with the garnishment directly payed to the CP is a bit better. And
a garnishment with the money sent to a government CSE agency is best.

It would seem to me that an employer's garnishment, check sent directly to
the CP, and the order establishing the CS amount, which just happens to be
for the exact amount established in the CS order, would be enough to show
that CS was payed.

Also, as Moon Shyne pointed out in another post, it is impossible to prove a
negative. The court says show payment. You provide reciepts in the amount
ordered by the court. The court says it was a gift. What evidence did the
court have to show that the amount was a gift. It would seem that they
would now have the burden to show that what you paid wasn't a gift (i.e. the
positive proposition). It would seem that reciepts totally exactly the
payment amount would be enough to show intent to pay CS. I do know that
situations such as you describe occur. But my question is more general.
(i.e under what rationale does a court rule that regular and documented
direct payment of money to the CP in the exact court ordered amount of the
CS obligation, constitues a failure to pay support. It seems to me that
such an occurrance is way more than a coincidence.

Bob Whiteside wrote in message
arthlink.net...

"gini52" wrote in message
...

"frazil" wrote in message
...

gini52 wrote in message
...

"Layne Barlow" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 04:10:11 GMT, "Live Wire Cycles NY/LI"
wrote:

MAINTENANCE OF CHILD SUPPORT RECORDS

My New York Divorce was effective Oct 4, 1984 and my ex had
custody
for
approximately 34 months thereafter. The support order was vacated
on
Aug.
1,
1987 after I took custody (handicapped child). I never asked for
support
nor
received any. My ex has seen the child about 8 times in all these
years.
My
ex NOW (almost 20 years later) is claiming that she has never
been
paid
support and has filed clam with a collections agency located in
Texas!
The
child and I have always resided in New York. The mother resides
in
PA
now
as
she has recently moved there from New Jersey.

Question: How long do you have to maintain records of child
support?

Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide.....

George



This is an easy one.

First, the burden of proof is on her to prove she received no
support.
==
Untrue. All she needs to do is sign an affidavit of no support. The
burdon
is then on the
other parent to prove support was paid. Layne's post has many more
inaccuracies but
Moonshyne has addressed them well so I won't duplicate her response.
==
==

Her affidavit is worthless, in the absence of an order establishing
support
in the first instance.
===
Precisely, and I told the OP this in a subsequent post. My comment to
Layne
was
meant in a general sense. In George's case, the affidavit is worthless.
In
"our" case,
the affidavit the ex signed was not worthless. She told the court we
didn't
pay. The court did not tell her to prove we didn't pay. The court told
us
to
prove we did pay. We showed the court the receipts. The court said:
"Ha!
That's not child support--that's $7,000. in gifts! You now owe her
$XXXXXX.XX." (Well, you get the pictu-)
===
===

The real danger area in family law as several of us have experienced an
"allegation" of non-payment of CS can become "proof" of non-payment
without
any corroborating evidence to show the allegation is valid in the first
place. The really frustrating part of the family law system for me is how
they can partition off prior decisions as being legally valid and refuse a
father the right to show the prior decisions were based on BS.

Depends on what you mean. If you mean the father had the opportunity to
present his evidence refuting the claim, but the court decided that his
evidence wasn't compelling, you have no case. If you mean that the decision
was made ex parte, I can understand your frustration. In any event, the OP
seems to be free and clear.

"frazil" wrote in message
...

gini52 wrote in message
...

"frazil" wrote in message
...

gini52 wrote in message
...

"Layne Barlow" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 04:10:11 GMT, "Live Wire Cycles NY/LI"
wrote:

MAINTENANCE OF CHILD SUPPORT RECORDS

My New York Divorce was effective Oct 4, 1984 and my ex had
custody
for
approximately 34 months thereafter. The support order was vacated
on
Aug.
1,
1987 after I took custody (handicapped child). I never asked for
support
nor
received any. My ex has seen the child about 8 times in all these
years.
My
ex NOW (almost 20 years later) is claiming that she has never
been
paid
support and has filed clam with a collections agency located in
Texas!
The
child and I have always resided in New York. The mother resides
in
PA
now
as
she has recently moved there from New Jersey.

Question: How long do you have to maintain records of child
support?

Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide.....

George



This is an easy one.

First, the burden of proof is on her to prove she received no
support.
==
Untrue. All she needs to do is sign an affidavit of no support. The
burdon
is then on the
other parent to prove support was paid. Layne's post has many more
inaccuracies but
Moonshyne has addressed them well so I won't duplicate her response.
==
==

Her affidavit is worthless, in the absence of an order establishing
support
in the first instance.
===
Precisely, and I told the OP this in a subsequent post. My comment to
Layne
was
meant in a general sense. In George's case, the affidavit is worthless.
In
"our" case,
the affidavit the ex signed was not worthless. She told the court we
didn't
pay. The court did not tell her to prove we didn't pay. The court told
us
to
prove we did pay. We showed the court the receipts. The court said:
"Ha!
That's not child support--that's $7,000. in gifts! You now owe her
$XXXXXX.XX." (Well, you get the pictu-)
===
===

Question, what was the form of the reciepts. Payment in cash is
impossible
to prove. Payment in money order is next to impossible. Check is better,
at least you have an endorsement indicating reciept. A labled check
indicates the check's intent, but still not iron clad. Ganishment, by an
employer, with the garnishment directly payed to the CP is a bit better.
And
a garnishment with the money sent to a government CSE agency is best.
==
Frazil, I am having a problem with OE shutting down on me every few minutes
(some dll error) and have twice had a lengthy response to your questions
lost. I will try to answer in more detail tomorrow. Right now, I'm tired of
writing and then losing it all.
===
===

"frazil" wrote in message
...

gini52 wrote in message
...

"frazil" wrote in message
...

gini52 wrote in message
...

"Layne Barlow" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 04:10:11 GMT, "Live Wire Cycles NY/LI"
wrote:

MAINTENANCE OF CHILD SUPPORT RECORDS

My New York Divorce was effective Oct 4, 1984 and my ex had custody
for
approximately 34 months thereafter. The support order was vacated
on
Aug.
1,
1987 after I took custody (handicapped child). I never asked for
support
nor
received any. My ex has seen the child about 8 times in all these
years.
My
ex NOW (almost 20 years later) is claiming that she has never been
paid
support and has filed clam with a collections agency located in
Texas!
The
child and I have always resided in New York. The mother resides in
PA
now
as
she has recently moved there from New Jersey.

Question: How long do you have to maintain records of child
support?

Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide.....

George



This is an easy one.

First, the burden of proof is on her to prove she received no
support.
==
Untrue. All she needs to do is sign an affidavit of no support. The
burdon
is then on the
other parent to prove support was paid. Layne's post has many more
inaccuracies but
Moonshyne has addressed them well so I won't duplicate her response.
==
==

Her affidavit is worthless, in the absence of an order establishing
support
in the first instance.
===
Precisely, and I told the OP this in a subsequent post. My comment to
Layne
was
meant in a general sense. In George's case, the affidavit is worthless. In
"our" case,
the affidavit the ex signed was not worthless. She told the court we
didn't
pay. The court did not tell her to prove we didn't pay. The court told us
to
prove we did pay. We showed the court the receipts. The court said: "Ha!
That's not child support--that's $7,000. in gifts! You now owe her
$XXXXXX.XX." (Well, you get the pictu-)
===
===

Question, what was the form of the reciepts. Payment in cash is impossible
to prove. Payment in money order is next to impossible. Check is better,
at least you have an endorsement indicating reciept. A labled check
indicates the check's intent, but still not iron clad. Ganishment, by an
employer, with the garnishment directly payed to the CP is a bit better. And
a garnishment with the money sent to a government CSE agency is best.

It would seem to me that an employer's garnishment, check sent directly to
the CP,

As far as I'm aware, there are no circumstances under which money would be
garnished from someone's paycheck and sent directly to a CP

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:37:25 -0400, "gini52" wrote:


"Layne Barlow" wrote in message
.. .
You and Moonshine never cease to amaze me. Your ignorance is matched
only by your zeal to jump on whoever doesn't fit the rules of your
little worlds.

Look at the common rules of evidence. Whoever is making a claim has
the burden of proving it.

Common rules of civil procedure provide the grounds, etc., for
counterclaims in each state.
==
And any NCP in this group knows, that in family court "common rules of
evidence" and "common rules of civil procedure"
are at the discretion of the judge.

Judicial discretion is too often abused. Judges are not all-powerful,
and they don't have the kind of discretion you let them have. Anyone
who allows himself to be pulled into court better know the rules of
the game, beginning with the Bill of Rights, then the common codes of
evidence and civil procedure as applicable to his state. All these
codes are binding on every judicial officer as well as pro se/in
propria persona parties. If the parties don't insist on the law being
followed -- which most don't -- then the judges get away with it, get
bolder, etc.

You need a reality check, Layne. My
response is based
on reality--your post is based on fantasy. Don't believe me? Take a poll of
the fathers here and find out
how they fared with "common rules of civil procedure."

Your "reality" base is faulty. You seem to suggest parties to cases
just throw themselves to the mercy of the court. I've spent the last
decade helping the kinds of people you're suggesting I take a poll of
where it counts -- in the legislature, in the courts, and in other
political arenas. I've helped make law and break law.

Any of you who go to court where the judge ignores the rules of
evidence, civil procedure, Bill of Rights and statutes have discovered
what true veterans (maybe I should say victims) in this arena know --
by and large the rule of law has been replaced by the rule of men (see
_Marbury v. Madison_, U.S. Supreme Court, 1803). Any judge who signs
an order or judgment against the Bill of Rights, etc., is no longer a
judge but a legislator -- something forbidden by the constitutional
guarantees of separate powers.

Going to court should *never* be like rolling the dice. Every case
breaks down to three sets of questions -- facts, law, and threshold.
If one knows the facts of the case (and how to get them), knows the
applicable law and the threshold issues, the case is winnable to the
point of moving for summary judgment or a directed verdict. Taking it
before a judge who rules against the law is probably the biggest
problem those who post here seem to face. The controversy you seem to
raise most is your apparent opinion that a judge is right and should
be obeyed when that judge just broke the law.

If one is dealing with this kind of judge then it's a much deeper
problem than a few generic lines of often unqualified opinion will
solve. That takes some serious law and creative action -- often more
than an appeal will solve.

Especially if you're in Oregon as long as Landau remains on the Court
of Appeals.


I have no zeal to jump on anyone-

Could have fooled me.

-in fact, I much prefer that you know what you're talking about before giving out
"legal advice" that could get
unsuspecting dads in as hot a water as you have yourself in.

You're being childish with that comment.

My "hot water," as I've said before, comes from the fact any
prosecutor anywhere can file and serve anyone. Whether it ultimately
justiciable or not is up to the courts.

It was great fun yesterday to watch the prosecutor finally admit to
the judge then try to cover the state's butt when he discovered, a
year after filing against me, he was trying to have me held in
contempt of a court order that doesn't exist.

If I'd stuck to the lawyer the court originally assigned to me --
yeah, the one who claimed he'd had 3 years of Harvard Law School --
I'd have been another victim of the system. His tactic wasn't much
more encouraging than bend over and wait for penetration.

What I've learned so far from the entire Washington State
administrative system and the Oregon judicial procedures so far boils
down to this: it's based largely on incompetence and fraud. It seems
to be so ingrained into the practitioners who make a daily living at
it that their misprision of perjury doesn't seem to deter them one
bit. The whole Machine needs to be torn down.

As to whether I know what I'm talking about, instead of these stupid
sidetracks you might try asking me a legitimate question and see if I
come up with a legitimate answer.


BTW, you have yet
to cite us one case in which you have helped anyone win anything despite
your clamour that you have done so
in your attempt to justify your commercial solicitation of dads in this
group.


Although this is like throwing pearls to the swine, here's two:
Oregon Court of Appeals case #CA A101103, Oregon Supreme Court Case
#SC S45804.


(Comments pertaining to your threat are below)
==

Nothing conflicted. He's not making the claim, only the counterclaim.
She wants to play, he's going to invoke the rules of the game.

Being the self-appointed police of this group will backfire on you.
Tread lightly.
==
Publicly threatening people who respond to your "legal advice" is certainly
not wise.

Threat? What threat?

Perhaps you should blow the dust off your criminal code books and find out
how much more
trouble you can get yourself into.

Cite me something or shut up and brush up on the Bill of Rights, both
state and federal. I'm violating no laws, committing no crimes, and
I've just about reached my limit to responding to your petty opinions.

For the record, I am not easily intimidated, especially when it comes to
standing up for something I believe in such as fathers' rights. I will
continue to monitor your posts and
comment on them when I feel it is warranted.

No intimidation was ever meant. Like, how can this poster who uses
his real name actually threaten another poster who uses a pseudonym?
When you throw out provocative comments don't complain when they're
answered in a manner not to your liking. No one but a moderator or
whoever controls the computer network this is on can stop you from
commenting on my occasional posts. You have free speech, I have free
speech, this is a public forum, and we each have our kill filters.


There is no need for me to "police" this group. You are the only
participant who has posted a commercial solicitation for NCPs to pay you for
your "legal advice."

Hardly. Hirschfeld posts on here regularly. Some of us actually have
the skills and enough experience to charge for our services.

When I originally posted "Need real help?" that post spoke for itself.
People can take it or leave it as they wish. A few have actually
inquired. There have been a 35 additional posts to that thread.
Since then it's seemed you appointed yourself to dog my posts wherever
I go, like a harpy. It's getting old real fast.


That makes you part of a suspect class.

Suspected of .... what?

Either email me on your own and get all this crap out of your system
-- I'll even call you on my dime if you give me a day, time and number
-- or leave me alone.

Layne

"frazil" wrote in message
...

gini52 wrote in message
...

"Live Wire Cycles NY/LI" wrote in message
...
In response to the possible affidavit that allegedly she signed, I have
one
that she signed and is filed! Wow, two affidavit's, one says one thing
and
the other says another? I'm not very smart when it comes to these
things.
Should this topic be expanded into another legal forum now?

George
==
No need. Your case doesn't hinge on her affidavit--it hinges on your court
order so it
matters not what she told the agency or what she signed for them. Your
court
order trumps her
recent affidavit.
==
==

Correct, she signed an affidavit, that she is rightfully owed something, and
she should have also provided the order establishing the obligation she
claims was not fulfilled (i.e. the order that established CS support payable
by you to her). Now, you must show that the order she provided was, at some
point, superceded by a subsequent order that vacated her order. Further,
you may also have to provide documentation that you did fulfill the
obligation established by the order she provided, during the time the order
had effect. Then you file a counterclaim and an affidavit claiming she
never paid the support owed by her to you, which was established by the
subsequent order. If there is no order establishing her CS obligation, then
you must argue that under the law it is permissable for you to now sue for
back support. Part of that argument is that according to the laws in you
state (i.e state with jurisdiction to hear the matter), you are within the
statute of limitations for collect CS.

Double check the state's statutes - in most cases that I saw, there's a
difference between the statute for collecting CS, vs the statute for initiating
a CS order.

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:03:09 -0400, "frazil"
wrote:


Live Wire Cycles NY/LI wrote in message
...
A Lawyer reviewed and this agreement today and states that it goes back to
the original date of the divorce! SUPPORT VACATED!
(c)
That the provision of the Stipulation of Settlement dated Aug 4th,
1984
and of the judgement of divorce which provides that the defendent pay to
the plaintiff the sum of $25.00 per week as and for the support and
maintenance of the child, XXXXXXXXXXX is vacated, nunc pro tunc. Signed by
my ex and myself!

This agreement modifying custody and support is a certified copy! The
lawyer
was representing her!

Certified? If that means the copy entered as final judgement, you appear to
be free and clear, assuming you are the defendent identified in the August
4, 1984, judgement of divorce, which apparently incorporates the settlement
between you and the mother. Surprising that the judge vacated the CS back
to the date of the 1984 divorce judgement (nunc pro tunc). That is almost
unheard of these days.

If you paid support between the 1984 date and the 1987 date it would seem
that you may have a case to recover the amount you paid during that time.






Unless laches operates in the case ....