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#41
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"P. Tierney" wrote in message news:B6SUd.77573$tl3.5658@attbi_s02... "nimue" wrote in message ... snip P. Tierney So you would leave your 2 year old alone in the car, out of your sight, for 15-20 minutes? My first post in this thread on the subject indicated that I would not, of course. I've not seen a single parent (or otherwise) on this newsgroup supporting such an idea. Okay. I just wanted to make that clear. I just spoke to my friend and she EXPLODED all over me and didn't want to hear it. It was very unpleasant. I was surprised she called me today -- I wasn't expecting to hear from her until tomorrow at the earliest. Anyway, she sees NOTHING wrong with what she did and she got VERY angry. FURIOUS. I tried very hard to be mild and caring, but no matter what I said, she just reacted and got angrier and angrier. It was very unpleasant and I am feeling kind of down about it now. It's hard to say from a distance, but regardless of how you expressed yourself, the other parent may have considered it demeaning or patronizing. I would stick to just doing the right thing instead of saying it. You can't get her to change with your words, I don't think, but in the same situation in the future, I'd insist on staying by the car and, if asked why, I might say, "Look, it's the law that we can't leave kids in the car in this state, so I can't check the property with you. You go ahead." I agree. You can't go back in time of course, but that's what I would have done the first time it happened. It's pretty much impossible to tell someone that they are a bad parent, no matter how lovingly you try to do it, without them getting angry and defensive. It's the kind of conversation that you don't have unless you think it really is important enough to lose the friendship over. That said, just because she was defensive when she was put on the spot, does not mean that she didn't hear you. She might very well stop doing it because of what you said. And finally, please don't write off the friendship just yet. You embarrassed her. It's natural for her to act combatatively. Call her again in a few days to chat about something else. Don't mention this again. Or if you do, just apologize for the way it came out. There is no need to reiterate the message or to make her admit you're right. I was once on the opposite end of a similar situation. DD is 9. I mentioned to a friend that I thought when she was 10, she'd be old enough to stay home alone if I ran to the local grocery store or post office (these are both less than 5 minutes away, and as it's not where I do my main grocery shopping, a trip to either place is normally less than 20 minutes round trip). She told me that if I were to do that, I need to tell DD not to tell anyone, as it is illegal and CPS could get involved if anyone ever found out. I was *flabbergasted*!!! I've always thought of myself as a conscientious parent, to think that I'd even *considered* doing something illegal.... Well, there are a lot of things that are bad parenting that are not illegal, so to do something *so* bad that there was a law against it... So I immediately began researching state law, and after an exhaustive search discovered that there is no stated minimum age for a child to be left alone. After that I started searching local statutes and even social services rules. The only thing I ever found were "guidelines." One place did say no child should be left alone at all until they are 12. Another said that children ages 8-10 could be left alone for up to 1.5 hours in the daytime. Anyway, all this is beside the point. The *point* is that I know how it made me feel, so I can understand how this mom might have felt. Bizby |
#42
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dragonlady wrote: In article , "nimue" wrote: Okay. I just wanted to make that clear. I just spoke to my friend and she EXPLODED all over me and didn't want to hear it. It was very unpleasant. I was surprised she called me today -- I wasn't expecting to hear from her until tomorrow at the earliest. Anyway, she sees NOTHING wrong with what she did and she got VERY angry. FURIOUS. I tried very hard to be mild and caring, but no matter what I said, she just reacted and got angrier and angrier. It was very unpleasant and I am feeling kind of down about it now. When my kids get this angry at me when I call them on something, I know it's because they KNOW they were in the wrong, and are angry at having been caught . . . When *I* get this angry at dh, my mom, etc., over something it's because I know I was wrong and I'm scrambling to mount a defense. Now that I'm aware of it, I've been working on it. IME the knee-jerk, furious, "I've done NOTHING wrong, how DARE you suggest it" response is compensating for the suspicion in one's own mind that one has made a mistake. dragonlady has hit the nail on the head here. Melania Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003) and #2 (edd May 21, 2005) -- Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care |
#43
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"P. Tierney" wrote in message news:WDNUd.76846$tl3.2376@attbi_s02... "nimue" wrote in message ... Stephanie Stowe wrote: "Cathy Kearns" wrote in message om... "toypup" wrote in message om... "Billy bob" billybob@bobshome wrote in message u... Its takes one minute for someone to take your child. (yup less then that even) I think there are a lot of situations reported where the child was unintentionally taken by a car thief. You know, the child was in the back seat and the thief didn't know it. Define "a lot". And what percentage are car jackings (where a parent was in the car or standing by the car) versus parents wandering away. From what I've heard on the news, I'd guess one or two a year in the entire US, and I'd say most of those are car jackings. Note, I'm not saying you should leave children in cars, I'm just tired of folks fear mongering about imagined dangers, instead of the obvious ones, like a child overheating in a parked car. The car theft thing is on my mind as part of why I do not leave the kids in the car, as if I needed too many reasons. For me, it is not so much the likelihood, which is pathetically small. But *what if?* As I said to my DH, who just paled upon thinking about it, the consequences are so horrifyingly small that a vanishingly small chance is just not small enough. THAT is good parenting. In fact, THAT is a good way to think in general. This is why my friend gets into trouble so often. She just doesn't think of the worst possible consequences. If you go by the worst possible consequences, then how can you do *anything*. I wouldn't walk down the sidewalk with my kid that ruled me -- after all, a car *could* veer off the road and take us all out, or an adductor could easily knock me unconscious with a blunt object, taking my kids away. It does happen, you know. She just thinks the world is a much safer place than I do. I know it is a pretty safe place. Things will always happen to people somewhere, here included. But a bit of perspective is always a good idea. P. Tierney Everybody places the line in a different place. It is certainly not good for anyone to live in such fear that you are not really living. This one is a no brainer for me since leaving the child in the car is not a super good idea in many instances for everyone. |
#44
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"Cathy Kearns" wrote in message om... "Stephanie Stowe" wrote in message ... "Cathy Kearns" wrote in message om... "toypup" wrote in message om... "Billy bob" billybob@bobshome wrote in message u... Its takes one minute for someone to take your child. (yup less then that even) I think there are a lot of situations reported where the child was unintentionally taken by a car thief. You know, the child was in the back seat and the thief didn't know it. Define "a lot". And what percentage are car jackings (where a parent was in the car or standing by the car) versus parents wandering away. From what I've heard on the news, I'd guess one or two a year in the entire US, and I'd say most of those are car jackings. Note, I'm not saying you should leave children in cars, I'm just tired of folks fear mongering about imagined dangers, instead of the obvious ones, like a child overheating in a parked car. The car theft thing is on my mind as part of why I do not leave the kids in the car, as if I needed too many reasons. For me, it is not so much the likelihood, which is pathetically small. But *what if?* As I said to my DH, who just paled upon thinking about it, the consequences are so horrifyingly small that a vanishingly small chance is just not small enough. That's a good reason for not leaving your child. You acknowledge that it's vanishingly small, but not small enough. I can certainly see that. I am with you on making things seem what they are not. I do not see the value in it. But even if temperature is not a problem, I still would not leave my kids. I'm just against the argument of not leaving your kids because "there are a lot of situation reported where the child was unintentionally taken..." It's too easy to disprove, there aren't "a lot", so it's not persuasive. I do not disagree with you. Just lending my thinking. |
#45
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"Nan" wrote in message ... On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 04:00:08 GMT, "P. Tierney" scribbled: A blanket rule for the individual family, I meant to say. It is a blanket rule for us. My dh has left dd1 in the car, and he knows I don't like it. I don't lecture or get mad, but he agrees he shouldn't. If it's just to appease me, that's fine by me! But some have seemed to imply that no one should ever do it. Tbh, I don't think it's a good idea. But I acknowledge my feelings are based on my own (dis)comfort level. I guess those that choose to do it will just have to live with the fact that people don't think they should do it. Just like a million other things we all choose to do wrt our kids. Or maybe it was stated, I'd have to go back and check. And the "one minute" thing isn't mine, but someone else's. I realized, however, that it's also my rough limit, depending on the circumstances -- give or take. Okay. Nan I have a tendency to make myself "rules" or what really amount to habits, so that I can think about them in the calm and apply them in the busy. Most of the time when I might be evaluating the safety of leaving my children in the car are times when my judgement is less good. So basically, when we are out and about, I simply do not leave them in the car, period. I make a decision is the thing I want to do important enough that I will wake DD (I don't even consider it if DS is asleep) or not. Now, where I live I have no doubts about the safety of leaving the kids in the car for a couple of minutes in the driveway. When it comes right down to it, I am faced with a situation in which I *must* leave on of the kids in the car when both of them fall asleep in the car. I have to carry them in. (You cannot wake up 4yo DS if has fallen all the way asleep. It is just Not Possible.) My main concern is the e-brake letting go and the car careening down the drive. But there does not seem much I can DO about it. If they both fall asleep, and DD cannot walk up the stairs even if I woke her up, and DS cannot be awakened.... |
#46
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SNIP
Actually, the gas station is one place I never leave kids in the car (thank goodness for pay at the pump!) I've heard too many stories of car-jackings, and gas stations seem to be the most popular locations. And if I do leave kids in the car, I never leave the car running - that really makes me paranoid, both from a car-jacking point, and from a "what if the kid gets out of the carseat" point. I've never heard of carjackings at gas stations, but at places like stoplights. In the latter situation, the keys are in a running car, making it possible. If you go pay for gas, you probably take your keys with you. I do, at least. Anyway, I don't see how paying at the pump would prevent a carjacking. P. Tierney Steph, the wacky Mom... I used to have a keyless entry doo dad for the car. I would pull it off the ring, leave the car running (for heat or AC depending) and lock the car with the keyless doo dad while pumping gas. And I live in Fairfax VT. I do not do this in Fairfax, but I have done it in The Big Town of Burlington! |
#47
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P. Tierney wrote: "Irene" wrote in message oups.com... Actually, the gas station is one place I never leave kids in the car (thank goodness for pay at the pump!) I've heard too many stories of car-jackings, and gas stations seem to be the most popular locations. And if I do leave kids in the car, I never leave the car running - that really makes me paranoid, both from a car-jacking point, and from a "what if the kid gets out of the carseat" point. I've never heard of carjackings at gas stations, but at places like stoplights. In the latter situation, the keys are in a running car, making it possible. If you go pay for gas, you probably take your keys with you. I do, at least. Anyway, I don't see how paying at the pump would prevent a carjacking. Maybe I just hear different news stories than you do? I think a lot of people actually leave the car running when they get gas (even though you aren't supposed to). Besides, you don't need keys to steal a car. ;-) I know that paying at the pump doesn't completely protect me from carjacking, but at least it makes me feel better - especially since it's less likely that someone could sneak into the car while I'm not looking, and attack me when I get back in. We all have our areas of paranoia - that's one of mine. ;-) Irene |
#48
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Stephanie Stowe wrote: SNIP Actually, the gas station is one place I never leave kids in the car (thank goodness for pay at the pump!) I've heard too many stories of car-jackings, and gas stations seem to be the most popular locations. And if I do leave kids in the car, I never leave the car running - that really makes me paranoid, both from a car-jacking point, and from a "what if the kid gets out of the carseat" point. I've never heard of carjackings at gas stations, but at places like stoplights. In the latter situation, the keys are in a running car, making it possible. If you go pay for gas, you probably take your keys with you. I do, at least. Anyway, I don't see how paying at the pump would prevent a carjacking. P. Tierney Steph, the wacky Mom... I used to have a keyless entry doo dad for the car. I would pull it off the ring, leave the car running (for heat or AC depending) and lock the car with the keyless doo dad while pumping gas. And I live in Fairfax VT. I do not do this in Fairfax, but I have done it in The Big Town of Burlington! I'm not sure how old your kids are, but now that ds is big enough to get out of his carseat on his own, there is *no way* I will leave him in the car with it running longer than, say, to put the books in the library drop. (It's a funky driveway - theoretically possible to do without getting out, but not terribly easy to maneuver close enough so I don't bother). Ds *knows* he's not to get out of the carseat when the car is on, but if it's stopped and I'm out of my seat, he'll try to push that limit. Irene |
#49
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Nikki wrote: wrote: Twenty minutes is way too long. Even if the temperature is fine, there are no conceivable carjackers, and the car has been left so it is safe as houses, a small child waking up alone in a car would probably be confused and scared. bad parent alert I'm very conscious of the weather so if it is warm I don't leave mine in the car at all. If it is to cold I don't either. When we lived in the country I'd leave mine napping in the car for an hour or more. In town I've left Luke napping in the car for up to 30 minutes. This Saturday we got back from an outing very late and Luke stayed sleeping in the car while I took Hunter in and put him in bed. That probably took 15-20 minutes. Honestly, I'd probably leave him in there longer if he was sleeping but I'm afraid the neighbors would call the law. My drive way goes up and behind the house. Neither have shown the least bit of anxiety if they wake up in the car. Okay, I'm probably overgeneralizing from my own experiences. My son would be okay with waking up in the car and my not being there for a minute or two, but if he woke up right after I went inside and then was in the car alone for twenty minutes, it's highly likely he'd be hysterical when I got back. Also, he's not a deep sleeper. Anyway, that wouldn't really be *unsafe*, just very inconsiderate. It'd be much more worrisome with a kid whose tendencies when left alone ran more towards squirming out of the straps and playing with the gear shift. I don't know, I don't think cars are as unsafe as the official bulletins say as long as you realize that they can heat up fast and so on (I think the official rules/recommendations are pretty draconian to try to reach people with no common sense at all). However, I'm very sensitive to the fact that if I left my child alone in a car and any kind of freak accident happened - meteor strike, whatever - I'd have to contend not only with the sorrow of a freak accident but with the fact that I might be criminally prosecuted. Beth |
#50
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Nikki wrote: wrote: Twenty minutes is way too long. Even if the temperature is fine, there are no conceivable carjackers, and the car has been left so it is safe as houses, a small child waking up alone in a car would probably be confused and scared. bad parent alert I'm very conscious of the weather so if it is warm I don't leave mine in the car at all. If it is to cold I don't either. When we lived in the country I'd leave mine napping in the car for an hour or more. In town I've left Luke napping in the car for up to 30 minutes. This Saturday we got back from an outing very late and Luke stayed sleeping in the car while I took Hunter in and put him in bed. That probably took 15-20 minutes. Honestly, I'd probably leave him in there longer if he was sleeping but I'm afraid the neighbors would call the law. My drive way goes up and behind the house. Neither have shown the least bit of anxiety if they wake up in the car. Heh, heh - when both of them are sleeping in the car in nice weather, that's when I park in the garage and work in the front garden. ;-) I'll run in the house for a few minutes (go to the bathroom, throw perishables in the fridge, stuff like that) but not more than that. I've never gotten any flack from the neighbors about the gardening - actually, they usually tell me to take advantage of my break! Irene |
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