Sibling rivalry

Chookie wrote:
In article ,
"Sue" wrote:

On the bedtime - just do it. Adults need to set that. The only meeting
you should have should be with your husband.
Okay, that's fine. I was trying to be a democracy and let everyone have a
say.

A family isn't a democracy; it's a (meritocratic?) oligarchy.

My mother's turn of phrase was that our family wasn't a
democracy; I should be grateful it was a benevolent dictatorship. ;-)

But it might be a good idea to talk to each child separately about the
difficulties in the family life atm and see how they are feeling and what
ideas they have. I don't think family meetings are great if they only occur
in crises. Perhaps breakfast 'out'?

I do agree that family meetings are good, but better if
they aren't always in response to a crisis. Otherwise, they
become something to be dreaded rather than a means of improving
communication and problem solving.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Chookie wrote:
In article ,
"Sue" wrote:

I am not sure. She doesn't get out of the chores, but she argues and
tantrums everyday about doing them. I usually send her to her room until she
can control herself and then she still has to do the chores.

Why her room, incidentally? In my house, it's the loo. Nothing exciting to
do in there! DS1 would just read or play with toys if he went to his room.

My experience is that one has to be careful with that
approach. It can be a rather exciting room, and fraught with
potential to require a plumber's help to reverse any "creative"
efforts ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

jos wrote:

What worked for us was giving the older one a chance of having her space by
keeping the younger one busy as much as possible; mostly by inviting her
friends over as often as I could manage, even just for an hour after school.
I'd also divert her if she was pestering her sister, and I had her in a
couple of sports; it all helped, but I'd say the friends were the critical
factor.
They were needed as my daughter didn't want to go and play by herself, or
rather, she was unhappy about having to do so all the time because her
sister wouldn't play any more, and that was building up resentment as she
didn't get to do the things she was interested in in the way she enjoyed,
and no amount of after-school activities could replace that.

True, but if you have a child who has a limited pool of
friends (perhaps due to lack of social skills), activities can be
a way of creating shared experiences and possibly finding new friends.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Chookie wrote:



As to methods:

One method would involve keys and locks. The problem is that you don't really
want adolescent girls locking themselves in their rooms, either!


No - so you get locks the parents can open, with their extra keys. And
you have a rule that if a parent knocks on the locked door, it's open in
about, oh, 2 seconds. Otherwise, the lock is gone.

If everyone were behaving properly, there'd be no difference between a
locked door and a closed door.

Clisby

In article ehrebeniuk-35F838.19092707032008@news, Chookie says...

In article ,
"Sue" wrote:

I feel she is definitely less mature for her age. We do have a school
counsellor. I could ask if there is anything they could do.

It's not so much what they can *do* as what they can *measure*. There are
ways to assess social behaviour to see if it's normal or not.

How are the arguments settled? Why is it worth her while to argue? What
is she getting out of it?

I am not sure. She doesn't get out of the chores, but she argues and
tantrums everyday about doing them. I usually send her to her room until she
can control herself and then she still has to do the chores.

You need to figure out that reason. If it's happening every day, there is
some payoff that she's getting. Could be that she enjoys being a drama queen,
or she's getting some one-to-one attention. DH might have an idea.

Why her room, incidentally? In my house, it's the loo. Nothing exciting to
do in there! DS1 would just read or play with toys if he went to his room.

Yeah! Good idea. I notice the response to the hitting is to send the 15 year
old to her room.

A 15 year old in her bedroom - doesn't seem a picture of misery to me...


::snip::

I don't know how to stop #3 from staying out of their rooms. This is what I
need help with.

(I assume you mean "going into" rather than "staying out"!)

First thing is -- what precisely do you mean?

Does #3 not accept her sisters' authority over their own rooms? Is this
because you haven't enforced their rights up till now? (In which case, you
can't really blame the elder girls for walloping her...)

Does #3 not do what YOU say? That's a different matter.

Or do you mean that you can't think of a good punishment for this?

Or that you don't know how to start up a rule that your household has never
had?

As to methods:

One method would involve keys and locks. The problem is that you don't really
want adolescent girls locking themselves in their rooms, either!

She can install exterior-door type deadbolt locks - they don't need a key to get
out (for emergencies), but she can retain the alternate keys to get in.



The other alternative is to have serious and painful punishments lined up for
#3 when she next goes into a bedroom without permission, takes something
without permission, or refuses to leave when requested. But you might need
some lead time before enforcement, if knocking on doors is a new thing.

Are you expecting #3 to occupy herself a LOT of the time? Too much time?

Probably. She isn't very good at it and she seems to need a lot of people
time. She doesn't like to be alone, which is different from the rest of us.
The rest of us seem to like to be alone more than she does.

An activity to take her out of the house for an evening so the other two can
have some peace?

As the elder of two girls, naturally I believe your older girls are being
driven to distraction by an overindulged brat. Bitter? Me, bitter?


Hee hee. We all are remembering our own sib conflicts.

I think it's the whole dynamic, and it's beginning to remind me of my last few
years at home, when my parents were at odds with each other, my mother was
falling into her recurring psychological illness, and there wasn't energy
devoted to keeping the household going as far as relationships (although the
housekeeping was perfect).

Sue - clearly it's not quite that kind of situation here, and you and hubby love
all three girls, but, when I read of problems of invaded bedrooms but the simple
idea of putting locks on hasn't occurred to you (or y'all just haven't gotten a
round tuit..), the older girls have run roughshod over your bedtime rules *and*
your youngest's feelings and sleep, the TV and piano are both in the same part
of the house and you just throw your hands up about the conflicts over it - I
see a lack of just plain old practical problem-solving being applied here. And
a lack daily management of the household to make it functional.

The youngest is bouncing off the walls with evident energy and frustration, and
all you talk about to address that is soccer - someday. The older two, getting
along and more off your radar, have slowly carved out 2/3 of the house for their
leisure and pleasure, even against your rules, marginalizing the youngest. I
get the strong impression a lot of this is happening because it's just been
easier to let it slide until it reaches roar of rancor. A lot of the solution
here is setting structure and boundaries. *And* work on your youngests' social
interaction difficulties. But the only place *that's* ever going to happen is
in your loving home, and it will have to be a supportive home with room for her
to breathe. *And* firmly held boundaries to teach her how to get along in the
world.

And do it mostly top-down. Family conferences are a good idea for some
families, but I suspect here it will be a setting for more drama and you'll find
it hard (*again*) to really stand up to what the girls need. Get involved in
some activities that interest and engage the youngest, set schedules, enforce
rules, solve problems. That's a job for you and hubby.

Banty

In article ehrebeniuk-CBA47F.19580207032008@news, Chookie says...

In article , Banty
wrote:

Someone here had an interesting idea about, whatever she takes from her
sister's
rooms, said sister gets to pick something from *her* room to be impounded (or
something like that). Might work but I'd caution; whenever I've dallied with
such an approach it gets even more resentments as whatever is done as
'payback' is always viewed as 'not the same thing' or 'out of line' or
whatever. Or 'you
did that on purpose but I didn't do what I did on purpose'. Paybacks, while
tempting, don't work IME - too many varying perceptions about it.

I think it would be have to be watched over by the parents very carefully to
prevent. I was thinking of t-shirt for t-shirt type stuff, not a smashed
ornament for a smashed ornament.

If someone "borrows" a t-shirt without permission, the impounded t-shirt would
go into the laundry with the worn one, and only reappear when the first one
does.


Maybe if the parent themselves do it (choose the item), and with a view to
teaching the youngest what the impact of taking stuff is.

Be prepared for how *that* T-shirt was one #2 only wears sometimes, but *HER*
T-shirt that was taken in kind, is her favoritest that she was going to wear
*tomorrow*, so it's "notttt the saaame, and it's not faaaaaiiirrrr..."

Banty

In article , jos says...

Ah but that's the other thing - *no* *more* *bedtime* *chats*. Like I
said
when I originally suggested this, the bedtimes get enforced too. The
switch
helping with that, as there isn't a set habit to break of one girl going
to the
other's room, or talking through the doors, or whatever they do. Harder
to
carry on that stuff between floors.


Quite true, but this is the younger one's reason for going back upstairs;
she's going to want to carry on the tradition, regardless, and it might not
be easy to stop her in a way that's convincing to DD2. Besides, going by
Sue's description, it sounds as if DD2 might be easier to stop than DD3 .
What time do they go to bed, anyway? Is it feasible for DD1 to go to bed a
good bit later, like an hour or so?

I get the impression #3's problem is more of one of being left out. (And the
noise over her room.) With #2 downstairs, and #3 being different to talk to
than #2 (and hopefully some maturity on the part of #1 after Sue and hubby have
laid down the law a bit...) it's quite a different situation.

Like I said before, I don't think just separating bedtimes would work... kids
stay awake, or wake up.


Not the best
start for improving their relationship. Myself, I'd leave the rooms as
they
are, and find more neutral options for including DD3.

You do need to change the bedtime situation as percieved by DD3, with the
elder two have a roaring good time upstairs without her; I'd go for
staggered bedtimes myself, DD1 is a good bit older than the others, so why
should she be held to a 12-year old bedtime just because DD2 wants
company?
I mean, if DD2 were an only, you wouldn't be going to bed at her bedtime
just to reassure her, you'd find other ways to deal with the fear. And the
issue of 15-year-old priviledge can't be blamed on DD3, so you're not
adding
in more resentment, unlike "you have to stop talking because DD3 is
jealous".

Which is part of the reason why changing the physical arrangement too
helps.

Given the habit (and remembering my sibs, although I only have one kid),
even if
you spread the bedtimes better, the younger will stay awake or wake up.
Then
they'd carry on. Unless kid #2 is a heavy sleeper (is she?)

But no doubt some serious boundary-enforcing has to go on here in several
ways.
Physical separations help establish that. And whatever the arrangement
the
bedroom-raiding by #3 has to stop. As in yesterday.


Most definitly. My teen would be ready to commit murder by now with this
sort of invasion. Privacy really counts at this age, it doesn't matter if
their personnal space is a bedroom or a shelf, little sisters have no
business in there!

Yep. Plus it's a basic boundary to learn to respect, else #3 will be having
social problems forever.

Banty

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
jos wrote:

What worked for us was giving the older one a chance of having her space
by
keeping the younger one busy as much as possible; mostly by inviting her
friends over as often as I could manage, even just for an hour after
school.
I'd also divert her if she was pestering her sister, and I had her in a
couple of sports; it all helped, but I'd say the friends were the
critical
factor.
They were needed as my daughter didn't want to go and play by herself, or
rather, she was unhappy about having to do so all the time because her
sister wouldn't play any more, and that was building up resentment as she
didn't get to do the things she was interested in in the way she enjoyed,
and no amount of after-school activities could replace that.

True, but if you have a child who has a limited pool of
friends (perhaps due to lack of social skills), activities can be
a way of creating shared experiences and possibly finding new friends.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Quite true, and activities have certainly helped us with that! (though more
for my rather shy elder daughter)

Jo

"toypup" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Mar 2008 19:09:27 +1100, Chookie wrote:

In article ,
"Sue" wrote:

I feel she is definitely less mature for her age. We do have a school
counsellor. I could ask if there is anything they could do.

It's not so much what they can *do* as what they can *measure*. There
are
ways to assess social behaviour to see if it's normal or not.

How are the arguments settled? Why is it worth her while to argue?
What
is she getting out of it?

I am not sure. She doesn't get out of the chores, but she argues and
tantrums everyday about doing them. I usually send her to her room until
she
can control herself and then she still has to do the chores.

You need to figure out that reason. If it's happening every day, there
is
some payoff that she's getting. Could be that she enjoys being a drama
queen,
or she's getting some one-to-one attention. DH might have an idea.

Why her room, incidentally? In my house, it's the loo. Nothing exciting
to
do in there! DS1 would just read or play with toys if he went to his
room.

Not OP here, but I personally like sending my kids to the bedroom for
tantrums because it's less of a punishment and more of just time for them
to calm down. It doesn't bother me if they start playing there.

If it's punishment I'm after, I make DS write sentences. I once made him
write me a paper about why it wasn't right to throw a tantrum in the store
and it ended up being a paper about how he felt justified because his
sister was making him so angry he had to hit her. That was very cute,
since he was only 5yo at the time.

LOL. I can see #1 doing that!
I might try that with her next time she acts up.
Debbie

To the OP, maybe get the girls to write papers when they are fighting and
upset. How about asking them to write one page about why they are upset
or
solutions they can think of to their problems? By the time they're done,
they should be less upset and maybe thinking more clearly about how they
can get along better. DS definitely felt better after he wrote me his
paper. I'm thinking maybe I can do more of that when both of them are
older.

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Chookie wrote:
In article ,
"Sue" wrote:

On the bedtime - just do it. Adults need to set that. The only meeting
you should have should be with your husband.
Okay, that's fine. I was trying to be a democracy and let everyone have a
say.

A family isn't a democracy; it's a (meritocratic?) oligarchy.

My mother's turn of phrase was that our family wasn't a
democracy; I should be grateful it was a benevolent dictatorship. ;-)

Right. I never even considered that the family was a democracy.

But it might be a good idea to talk to each child separately about the
difficulties in the family life atm and see how they are feeling and what
ideas they have. I don't think family meetings are great if they only occur
in crises. Perhaps breakfast 'out'?

I do agree that family meetings are good, but better if
they aren't always in response to a crisis. Otherwise, they
become something to be dreaded rather than a means of improving
communication and problem solving.

We were in the car a lot driving to things. That was a time when we
could discuss stuff, and it wasn't a formal or contrived type of
thing.

I did also talk to the kids separately (often in the car also when I
was taking them to their separate events).

Incidentally I've just this minute thought of an incident of a younger
one taking an older one's things.

DD#1 had a bicycle when we lived in Key West, and she had training
wheels on it for a long time. When we moved to Philadelphia, #2 was
5 and in kindergarten which was only half day. She wanted to learn to
ride a bike, but we told her that she couldn't because she didn't have
a bike yet and we didn't really have anyplace to ride equivalent to
what we had in Key West. Also I didn't want to put the training
wheels back on dd#1's bike when she had just gotten them off.

She was NOT to borrow her sister's bike. I was remembering when (I
was in HS and my sister was in junior high at the time) *I* borrowed
my sister's new English bike with gears and hand brakes. I wasn't
supposed to be riding this bike, but I took it anyway, and rode over
to the school which was about a block away. I rode down a driveway
which had some loose gravel at the bottom and totally wiped out due to
being used to coaster brakes. (My sister won the bike in a magazine
selling contest. She got first prize although she had really wanted
the second prize.)

So of course dd#2 DID borrow dd#1's bike. The bike was in the
basement where there was a back door out onto an alley. And she
taught herself to ride without any help and without training wheels. I
don't know how she did it, but it did not appear to damage the bike
any. By the time anyone had found out about it, it was too late.

So what would you have done?