Good Newsweek article

On 16 Feb 2005 11:34:07 -0800, Banty
scribbled:

In article , Laura Faussone says...



Still, I agree with your basic assessment: much of these women's complaints
seem to be purely self-imposed and is largely done by women who want to
impress other women with their ability to be Martha Stewart and do it all.
When did motherhood become a competition? If you're trying to do so much
that you're that stressed out, you need to take a long look at whose
interests you're *really* serving. Chances are pretty good that it's *not*
your kids'!

Martha Stewart's also divorced and, from what I've heard, doesn't have the best
relationship with her daughter.

Laura


I also heard this little rumor about her going to jail....

*snort*
Don't we all wanna be like Maaaaartha??

Nan

"Melania" wrote in message

I don't know if I'm in a huge minority here, but I look at my own
mother and MIL, and basically think, "yep, they did exactly the right
thing, that's just precisely what I want to do." Which in Mom's case
was to stay home till we were in full time school, then finish her
education degree, and then become a primary school teacher, and in
MIL's case was to go back to work part-time as a physiotherapist once
her kids were in school, and full time once they were in high school
(and now she's part time again). Both of these choices rely on having a
breadwinner husband, and that's not the case for many people, I know,
but when it is I think a middle ground can be found where a woman is
doing something interesting and hopefully remunerative, and staying
involved in her kids' lives. Without turning it into the quest for
supermom.

However, I do think that going back to work once the kids are in school is
not a good idea either. As they grow into teens is when they need us the
most. Unless you have a very flexible job and/or can be home when they get
home, you are leaving teens unattended and that's when they get into
trouble. I always appreciated my mom for being at home when I got there
afterschool. My husband's mom went back to school and got her nursing degree
when he was a teen and he was left basically to raise himself. He then got
into the wrong crowd and into things that he shouldn't of gotten into. I
know his case is extreme and his mom could of handled things better, but the
fact remains that kids do need us even when they are going to school. I
would like to go back to school and get a job outside the house (I work at
home now as a medical transcriptionist), but I just don't see how I can do
that and be the parent I want to be to my girls. As they get older, they
need me around when they have something happen. I know millions of people
work and their kids are just fine, but I feel like I am starting all over
and what I really wish is that I had gotten a degree before I had kids.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

"Irrational Number" wrote in message
...
" wrote:
I have no sympathy for women who sign their 9 kids up for 4 different
after school activities each, and then complain that they spend all
their time in the car.

While I agree with this, there is something
to the fact that college applications look at
things like well-roundedness. For some people,
for whom it's important to go to a "good college",
this kind of stuff is "necessary".

This is a problem with *older* kids, though, not with the preschool/early
elementary school set. I doubt my kids' college admissions board is going to
give a rip whether they started piano or ballet at age five or played travel
soccer in the third grade. And when it *does* start to matter (middle/high
school), the kids can be in charge of getting themselves to and from many
activities. (I swam competitively in middle and high school. My mother had
to drive me to practice in the early morning, but I took the bus to school
and then took the bus back to swim practice, if required, and then,
depending on the time, I either took the bus home or my mom picked me up on
her way home from work. So, I was busy every day after school and did
multiple trips around town, but my mother only drove me twice a day.)

I think a big part of the problem here is that we've come to believe that it
isn't *safe* for kids to use public transportation or (heaven forbid) walk
from one place to another. But I think that's largely a fiction that we've
*allowed* to be imposed on us.
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (almost
3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

Stephanie Stowe wrote:


Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to bust on you. But I do not
understand
why we weave these complicated thought processes on ourselves when,
really,
these external pressures needn't have any impact beyond what you let
them
have.

Well, I think for me it was just basic immaturity. I started my family
in my early to mid-20s. I think many of us tend to go through a similar
stage before we wise up.

The first 1/3 of your life, you do what you're told.

The second 1/3, you do what you have to do.

The third 1/3, you do what you want to do.



jen

lenny fackler wrote:

That being said, I liked her her recommendations for policies that
could make life easier for families. It's sad to think that we, as a
society, can't come together and decide that affordable, quality day
care is something that would benefit us all.

I think we all agree that affordable, quality day care is something
that would benefit us all. We just need to find a way to a) make the
economics work and b) find the huge amount of perfect daycare workers,
not to mention be able to pay them a living wage (while still keeping
it affordable, mind you!). That implies huge government subsidies -
and where does that money come from?

Irene

"Sue" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
What a pessimistic view of motherhood!!

It's definitely not a pessimestic view. It's spot on. You don't have kids
yet, so you will naturally say that moms don't have to do all those
things.
They don't, but the pressure to do those things is there whether it is
said
or unsaid. But wait until you feel the pressure to have your child reading
by age 2 and the go to the best schools and so on.



..... Cautionary statment... I am replying to your ideas. I feel a RANT of my
own coming on. I sound like I am attacking you. I am not. I am trying to see
things another way. I wish I could live 100% by by own opinions coming up...

Who gives you this pressure? Why can't we not fold to this pressure. Be
water. I have had pressure to have my child reading because his dad read by
3. Whooooosh. Did you say something? I'm just smiling... That's why *we* are
the parents. We make the decisions. If we let external pressures exert undo
influence on our thinking, we run the risk of making the wrong decisions.
And the unfortunate truth is, the child suffers.

When I was a kid I took piano lessons for several years, then switched
to cello. I had after school activities, and I rode the late bus or my
bike home. If I wanted to join something, I was responsible for making
it work - not my mom. One year I wanted to take PE during summer
school (you got to wear your own swim suit instead of the nasty ones
that the school provided during the year). I rode my bike to school,
ran and swam for the entire morning, then rode home. I was in the best
shape of my life that summer.

That's how I was raised. But, that's not how kids are being raised today.
In
many parent's eyes today, the bar has been raised to see how many
activities
your kid can do and what grade level the child is reading, etc. And you're
considered a bad parent if your child doesn't perform in the "gifted
level."

Who considers you a bad parent? You? Your spouse? Is there anyone else that
matters?

And heaven forbid if don't buy every toy that is educational. There is a
unsurmountable pressure to perform. I don't like it and I certainly am not
raising my kids that way. But, I feel the overwhelming pressure to be that
way.


What is this pressure? Where does it come from? I don't feel this pressure.
I know I am a nutcase, that pretty well goes without saying. But if we all
just refused to play, maybe we could have a world like the one *we* would
like. There are a lot of us out there.

On another newsgroup, a mom is terrified to give her 3 week old baby a
pacifier because it doesn't fit into the AP parameters. I just find that
so
sad that she can't let go and really listen to what the baby needs or
wants
and is afraid of not living up to some stupid book.


Yeah, what you said. One problem with the brand new baby thing that is
different in times past though, that makes this a hard time to distinguish
"pressure" from "information" is that some of us hardly held a baby before
we held our own. Because some people value an AP approach does not make it
pressure, but the mind and body are weak from confusion, desire to succeed
and exhaustion.

If women want relief from the stress of parenting, they need to let go
of this ridiculous competitiveness we have with each other. They need
to let go of the idea that there's no such thing as good enough - and
it doesn't start with tax breaks, the government, or "society" - it
starts with the self.

I totally agree with you, but that's not the way it is. Women give other
women crap about working out of the house or formula feeding or
breastfeeding or not breastfeeding, staying home. Women are just really
competitive with their kids and
if you don't live up to some standard that someone has set forth, then you
are shunned and no one is willing to be a friend to you.

IMO then screw them. This is easy for me to say, I guess since I do not have
the kind of social needs that some people do. I would much prefer a small
group of good friends than an extended chatty circle.


I hear all the time
on the newsgroups that because some women don't breastfeed or co-sleep
that
they really can't associate with them because they don't have the same
parenting ideas. I find it sad.



Me too.

It's all a matter of choices and priorities, and I don't feel that the
government needs to change anything to make me a better (future)
parent. In fact, the less the government is involved with my home and
my family, the better.

Well I do. I think the government could make child care more easier and
offer things like other countries do so we can raise our children.
In
Canada, they offer mothers a year off. In Austrialia (correct me if I am
wrong), they give mothers money to stay home with their kids. Healthcare
should be a priority to families and other people so that they don't have
to
work ungodly hours just to have insurance. The government should make sure
there is quality daycares that are licensed and kept up so parents can
work
if they choose.


The problem here, though I do not disagree with you, is all this stuff comes
at a cost, and I am not just atlking abotu the dollars and cents. Where
there is universal healthcare, often the standards of care are lower, or
really more basic in nature, and the wait times for procedures is very,
very long. USA has a history of individualist accomplishment. Our capitalist
economy is the core of our system. And out government is inept. It is so far
to go from where we are. It is difficult to imagine in any functional way in
this country. I hear people today complaining about paying taxes for
education when *they* don't have kids in school, or for roads when *they*
use public transportation. As if taxes were a fee for service type
arrangement.

As I said, you need to wait until you have a child to really know and
understand what all of these issues really are. Right now, it's easy to
say
that you won't do all those things, and you may not, but I am betting my
money that you will feel the same pressures as many moms do right now.



I am the mother of 2. I have read the articles about all this WOH / SAHM
competition and whatnot. I have gotten pressure from the grandp's to potty
train this way or feed that way. I have had my sister flip an emotional lid
for not wanting to put my 2 little kids in the same room with her 3 little
kids during a sleepover. (Call my crazy, but I know my kids won't sleep in
the same room with 3 other kids. Her kids are used to sleeping together;
mine aren't. I think she thought I was making some judgement on her. I just
thought we would all have a much better time if we got some sleep.) It just
washes over me.


I think the idea I am trying to say is, if the pressure exists, you can
choose how you respond. The government is not going to change how it handles
childcare, healthcare or any of those things any time soon. So, will the
pressure drive you (me, us) or will we be water and live the way is right
for us and our families?

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

Sue wrote:
"Melania" wrote in message

I don't know if I'm in a huge minority here, but I look at my own
mother and MIL, and basically think, "yep, they did exactly the
right
thing, that's just precisely what I want to do." Which in Mom's
case
was to stay home till we were in full time school, then finish her
education degree, and then become a primary school teacher, and in
MIL's case was to go back to work part-time as a physiotherapist
once
her kids were in school, and full time once they were in high
school
(and now she's part time again). Both of these choices rely on
having a
breadwinner husband, and that's not the case for many people, I
know,
but when it is I think a middle ground can be found where a woman
is
doing something interesting and hopefully remunerative, and staying
involved in her kids' lives. Without turning it into the quest for
supermom.

However, I do think that going back to work once the kids are in
school is
not a good idea either. As they grow into teens is when they need us
the
most. Unless you have a very flexible job and/or can be home when
they get
home, you are leaving teens unattended and that's when they get into
trouble.

I think that must depend a lot on where you live, both ITO whether your
job allows you to be home after school, and whether teens are likely to
get into trouble. My dad was almost always home by 4:30 or 5 (school
teacher). We got off school at 3:30. On days when my mom wasn't home,
we would hang out by ourselves at home, or go to a friend's house where
a parent was home, or we might have an afterschool activity. It was no
big deal. At any rate, were weren't kids who were likely to get into
trouble. We also lived in a very small town.

Regardless of having kids or not, I've learned pretty clearly that I
need a flexible work schedule anyway. I don't see any reason to let
worries about potential scheduling conflicts prevent me from furthering
my education or working outside the home.

I always appreciated my mom for being at home when I got there
afterschool. My husband's mom went back to school and got her nursing
degree
when he was a teen and he was left basically to raise himself. He
then got
into the wrong crowd and into things that he shouldn't of gotten
into. I
know his case is extreme and his mom could of handled things better,
but the
fact remains that kids do need us even when they are going to school.
I
would like to go back to school and get a job outside the house (I
work at
home now as a medical transcriptionist), but I just don't see how I
can do
that and be the parent I want to be to my girls. As they get older,
they
need me around when they have something happen. I know millions of
people
work and their kids are just fine, but I feel like I am starting all
over
and what I really wish is that I had gotten a degree before I had
kids.

Mmm, I understand that. My mom did her degree partly by correspondence,
and when she had to be away (the university was in a city an hour's
drive away), my dad was responsible for us. I've already got a BA and
an MA, so any further education I do will be at the Master's level or
above, and their schedules are highly flexible (lots of independent
work/study). How close a school is, what kinds of schedules they offer,
etc, all play in a lot too, as does the issue of commuting to work, of
course.

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

I know that for me, and for many women I know, part time work is the answer.
I look at friends of mine who are full time SAHMs of school age children and
truly believe they are too caught up in "playground politics" and
micromanage too much of their children's lives for lack of alternate outlet.
I look at others who work full time and I know I wouldn't want to be that
removed from my kids' lives (sorry if that offends anyone - I'm talking
about *me* and my own experience being a full time WOHM when my first was
little). Part time is a wonderful thing, but it's hard to find
professional, well-paying, fulfilling part time work, and when you do, it's
hard to find adequate child care. I've been blessed with both.

Another comment on the overscheduled child: another big factor in how
childhood has changed is that most childhood activities are scheduled
instead of the "careless childhoods" (as Anna Quindlen said) many of us
experienced. If you actually want your child to *do* anything at all, it
usually means a planned activity, instead of just sending the kids out to
play and telling them to be home by dinner. If my kids didn't participate
in sponsored sports in music, they would always be underfoot pestering me to
use the computer ;-)

Karen

I know that I could easily fall into the trap of wanting to be the
supermommy if I don't end up getting a job -- that somehow being the
domestic goddess will make up for/replace not 'using' my PhD and following
the expected tenure track academic trajectory. I think it's very easy
especially for highly educated women to feel guilt coming from both
directions: we're not fulfilling our feminist obligations by going into
the workplace and taking advantage of the opportunities we've had, or
we're not being good moms by staying at home with our children. And it
might seem really crazy, but I can definitely see how such a woman would
be tempted to substitute high-powered parenting for a high-powered
career.

Stephanie Stowe wrote:

Here is a question for all of us. How do we stop ourselves for feeling these
external pressures so that we can focus on what is really important. The
week has been full of what society tells us and expects and pressures us to
do/be on usenet. Society is just an aggregate of people no smarter or more
with it than WE are. Half of what we think others/society is expecting of us
is in our minds. All these SAHM out there think that the current societal
trend is toward working motherhood, and they feel pressured and at odds.
While at the same time, WOH mothers feel pressured that they seen as not
being the best mothers because they also value their career or need to bring
in an income.

Stop the Madness, as that crazy exercise lady says. How can we teach the
next generation to think judgmentally for themselves so that their behavior
is not defined by some nebulous external pressure.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to bust on you. But I do not understand
why we weave these complicated thought processes on ourselves when, really,
these external pressures needn't have any impact beyond what you let them
have.

Well, yes and no. Some of these concerns are only concerns
if you accept them. Others are structural. The economics and social
structure you live in dictate a lot of things. Many social supports
that used to be in place for families no longer exist or are
seriously weakened (in the US, at least--can't speak for other
countries, though I suspect some of the same forces are at play
elsewhere as well). This places very real pressures on families
to make choices that increase their security. Dynamics have
changed in so many ways. The child who isn't good at academics
or doesn't get a college education is far more handicapped in
the job market now than in the past. These aren't imagined
pressures--these are very real risk exposures.
Now, lots of folks add a whole lot of other stuff on
top of these real issues, and that certainly makes things a lot
harder than they need to be. That doesn't mean that there aren't
real struggles, and it's not surprising that many of us sometimes
feel caught between competing demands.

Best wishes,
Ericka

snip

The problem here, though I do not disagree with you, is all this
stuff comes
at a cost, and I am not just atlking abotu the dollars and cents.
Where
there is universal healthcare, often the standards of care are lower,
or
really more basic in nature, and the wait times for procedures is
very,
very long. USA has a history of individualist accomplishment. Our
capitalist
economy is the core of our system.

I would argue that in Canada our standards of care are excellent, and
that wait times are usually only long when procedures are not urgently
needed (I'm sure others will disagree vehemently, I'm speaking only
from experience). Unnecessary procedures and interventions might be
less common. I get twitchy whenever capitalist economy and healthcare
are mentioned in the same breath. The last thing I want is a doctor
seeing a tally of billable services every time s/he looks at me.

And out government is inept. It is so far
to go from where we are. It is difficult to imagine in any functional
way in
this country. I hear people today complaining about paying taxes for
education when *they* don't have kids in school, or for roads when
*they*
use public transportation. As if taxes were a fee for service type
arrangement.

As I said, you need to wait until you have a child to really know
and
understand what all of these issues really are. Right now, it's
easy to
say
that you won't do all those things, and you may not, but I am
betting my
money that you will feel the same pressures as many moms do right
now.



I am the mother of 2. I have read the articles about all this WOH /
SAHM
competition and whatnot. I have gotten pressure from the grandp's to
potty
train this way or feed that way. I have had my sister flip an
emotional lid
for not wanting to put my 2 little kids in the same room with her 3
little
kids during a sleepover. (Call my crazy, but I know my kids won't
sleep in
the same room with 3 other kids. Her kids are used to sleeping
together;
mine aren't. I think she thought I was making some judgement on her.
I just
thought we would all have a much better time if we got some sleep.)
It just
washes over me.

It's not that one doesn't feel the pressure. It's just that keeping
perspective and critically assessing claims made by others, as well as
drawing on what was really positive in your own childhood (both just
enjoyable and also what set you up well in life), this is what's going
to help you deal firmly with that pressure, instead of doing yourself
in trying to conform and compete.

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)


I think the idea I am trying to say is, if the pressure exists, you
can
choose how you respond. The government is not going to change how it
handles
childcare, healthcare or any of those things any time soon. So, will
the
pressure drive you (me, us) or will we be water and live the way is
right
for us and our families?

--
Sue (mom to three girls)