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#91
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"Fred" wrote in message . net... As before, let's get right to the nub of it: Phil wrote: When speaking of custody or child $upport, "responsibility" is the same as money. Primarily, fathers have a "responsibility" for child $upport but the mother does not have an equal "responsibility". As a matter of course, fathers pay money to the mothers but mothers do not have to spend it on the children as long as they are minimally cared for (using the fact that nearly all custodial parents are mothers). IOW, she has less "responsibility" to the same children while his sole "responsibility" is $$$. There you go again. To you, it's all about the money. You need to learn a bit about family law and how fathers are treated, by and large. It IS only about the money. You obviously don't know jack about it. "responsibility ... : moral, legal, or mental accountability" http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dicti...responsibility Still, you have helped to make my point that, at the end of the day, this is all about money. Not moral accountability. Not informed consent. Not the welfare of the child. Money. And specifically evading the payment of money when one is both morally and legally accountable to do so. Legally, yes. Morally, hell no. So after all this, you do agree that it's all about the money, to the point that you will evade your moral accountability for contributing to the pregnancy, and even your moral accountability to the child who carries your DNA. That's disgusting. No, all I will agree to is you are trying to put words into others mouths as well as mine. Debate what is said, not what you WISH was said. You ARE disgusting but expected from the likes of those who excuse women and try to pin them on the nearest man. Let me know when you want to discuss what I DID say instead of what you wanted to hear. Phil #3 |
#92
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Gini" wrote in message news:H4sWg.2086$ic1.231@trndny06... "Fred" wrote Gini wrote: "Fred" wrote Gini wrote: "Fred" wrote .............................................. What I'm trying to discuss is taking responsibility. == What you appear to be discussing is *men* taking responsibility for women. Nonsense. == Well, there's a well thought out position. You just proved my point. You can't even comprehend women taking responsibility. Pathetic. Would you like me to go back and quote your message where you said that you agreed with what I was saying? == OK, I assumed you had normal comprehension capabilities. My error. == If you're just looking for a fight, look elsewhere. I don't have time. == Nor the intellect, apparently. Don't worry, Gini. He stops talking to anyone who disagrees with him. He won't even hear people who consistently say "equal responsibilities." Somehow, that seems to compute as a man NOT taking responsibility. I'm not sure why. But anyone who challenges him gets ignored, and now, maybe, he'll ignore you, too. Very closed minded, this one. *This* one has a closed mind? As if it weren't a trait of all feminists? Phil #3 |
#93
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"Fred" wrote in message . net... Let's get right to the nub of it: Phil wrote: Not *the* responsibility. *A* responsibility. "Her body, her choice, her responsibility." "His semen, his choice, his responsibility." "For every choice, a consequence." But not equal choices nor consequences including after childbirth when both parents are, or should be, equal. First of all, when it comes to reproduction, you are confusing equality with sameness. No, I'm not. No matter how much you wish it were so. Males and females have different sets of choices and consequences because they are not biologically the same. When you can bear children, then I will grant you the same set of choices regarding reproduction as are available to women. Until then, you'll just have to work with the choices and consequences available to men. So what you're saying is that since I can't get pregnant, I have no responsibility for any children, period. After childbirth, there should be equity. In some jurisdictions, that is the case; in others, it is not. That's an issue for legislatures to resolve. It is NOT the case in ANY jurisdiction in the US, PERIOD. Phil #3 |
#94
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"Fred" wrote in message . net... Phil wrote: "Fred" wrote in message . net... Gini wrote: "Fred" wrote .................... What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that people take responsibility? == Not at all--In fact we agree. She had the responsibility to not have sex when she was ovulating and had the responsibility to know when she is ovulating and the responsibility to tell him when she was ovulating. Apparently, she failed to do so. What we seem to have (systemically, in our society) is a failure to compel women to accept responsibility for their actions and decisions and we them condemn men for not anticipating her lack of responsibility. I don't think that it is an either/or situation. Both parties bear a responsibility. What I object to are the representations to the effect that one party is solely responsible to the exclusion of the other. Think about it: some men use sanctimonious statements such as "her body, her choice, her responsibility" to evade their own responsibilities. I know this because those men conspicuously evade my statement, "his semen, his choice, his responsibility." Failing to grasp that HER choice, whatever is may be, overrides his choice and with it goes the sole responsibility for that choice. The ONE making the decisions should accept the consequences of their decision. Those who contributed to the condition are both accountable. But as you say in another post, men and women are different and have different responsibilities due to their biological differences so take a stand and stand by it already. With pregnancy, men should be held equally liable to that of the mother, which means they should have the option of raising the child as they see fit every bit as much as the other but when the parents are not involved in an intact relationship, BOTH parents should be equal in custody, support (financial, emotional, spiritual and all others) and every other facet of the child's life unless there is a valid and just reason not to allow it. That "valid and just" phrase speaks to equity, which is fine with me. Not equality; equity. No, equality, I didn't misspell it. On the other hand, as long as women have the option to just walk away from a living, breathing child, denying men the same right in the same period is sexist and unequal treatment for similarly situated people. As long as women have the option to decide whether to become parents at all, men should have the same legal right during the same period. And there it is! The man seeks to evade responsibility for his actions. No, not at all. You need to learn to comprehend the written word. That is NOT what I said. Perhaps if I typed r-e-a-l s-l-o-w... I'm promoting equality. You see it as something else. Why, I'm not sure but I suspect you are a gender-feminist and ashamed to admit it. That's what it's always about. Is that why women have the extra choices that are denied men, money? What I'm trying to discuss is taking responsibility. What most are trying to discuss is evading their own responsibility. And the responsibility that most seem to be wanting to evade is financial responsibility. Don't forget that there is no law that says child $upport ... And money. It's definitely always about money. Snipping my message is not a way to win arguments. By doing so, you lose because you show your fear of being ridiculed with your bombastic claims. I fail to see how there could even BE children that are not wanted. [...] I can think of only two reasons: family pressure or money. You forgot religious pressures. That's a big one. If she's pregnant and unmarried, it seems her religion is cafeteria-style. Either way, your solution for men is the answer for her, keep her pants on. Phil #3 |
#95
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"Fred" wrote in message . net... Phil wrote: "Fred" wrote in message . net... Phil wrote: "Fred" wrote in message . net... teachrmama wrote: Second question: If it is reasonable for a man to know *all* the potential consequences of his actions, is it any less reasonable for women to also know, which negates abortion on demand as a reasonable response to accidental pregnancy? Your bigotry is getting in the way again. Abortion *is* one of the potential consequences. No it isn't! Sure it is! Your bigotry is distorting your understanding of the nature of consequences. Pregnancy can be a consequence of having sex. And abortion can be a consequence of pregnancy. Doesn't have to be, but it can be. It's one a of a range of possible consequences of pregnancy, others of which are adoption and carrying to term. All are consequences. Another choice is legal abandonment. All the post-conception choices are available to women while none are available to men so why are choices he is not allowed to make a consequence to the man? Because he is responsible for where his semen ends up. You didn't even attempt to answer the question. I did answer the question. You just don't want to recognize it, because to do so would mean that you are prepared to accept responsibility for your actions, and it is clear to me that, like the rest of your ilk, you won't do that. Perhaps you can point me to your answer. Was it somehow comingled with his responsibility for a woman choice to abort? "His semen, his choice, his responsibility." Won't confront that statement, either. Hits too close to the truth, I guess. That is the subject of this entire debate. I thought you knew that. The questions a do women have any responsibility for pregnancy or is it just men? Do women have any choices that are denied men? It's like this: without his semen, there's no conception, without conception, there is no pregnancy, without pregnancy, there is no abortion, or abandonment, or live birth, or whatever outcome you choose to list. So isn't his grandfather somehow implicated in this because without giving birth to his father, he would never have been born to "cause" the pregnancy you want to blame entirely on him, regarless the final outcome he is not allowed to make? "His semen, his choice, his responsibility." And no matter how hard you and your colleagues try to evade that responsibility, y'all can't do it. Women are killing, abandoning and giving, even selling their children and all you can think about is that men are responsible for a pregnancy? Sex may cause a pregnancy. Until a pregnancy occurs, both are equal in deciding 1) to abstain from sex; 2) use contraception; 3) or do nothing, hoping no pregnancy will occur. After pregnancy, the man has no choices except those given by the woman and in fact, he may not even be aware a pregnancy occurred. She is not even legally required to inform him. He should have thought of that before the fact. He should have been responsible before the fact, because he sure as hell is gonna have to own up to his responsibilities after the fact. But women do not need to be responsible because we have men onto which to pin responsibility for her decisions? Women have responsibilities, too. But I don't see women trying to evade their responsibilities, although there is one nutcase around here who thinks they are. I do, however, see lots of men trying to do so. Every abortion and abandonment and many adoptions are evading responsibility. And even if someone else was not as responsible as she might have been, that does not serve to negate his responsibility in the matter. Why do you feel women need the extra options that you seem to want to forbid men? What do you mean by "extra options"? [this should be good ... ] Sheesh. Are you really that stupid? Abortion, abandonment, adoption or keeping the child and/or forcing some man, not necessarily the father, to provide her with cash. You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother doesn't tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have responsibilities and what are they? It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know that he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he still has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he definitely has legal accountability. How so? What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least inform him of the pregnancy? Is every problem the fault of men in your world? Do you think women who lie are innocent? Isn't a lie by omission a lie? What if she does as some do, and keep it a secret for a decade or so. What are his responsibilities then? See above. Ok, what are HER responsibilities in both scenarios? Phil #3 |
#96
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"Werebat" wrote in message news:23tWg.8391$vC3.1338@dukeread02... Phil wrote: Equality is bigotry??? I suppose freedom is slavery as well? Your attitude here is double-plus ungood. - Ron ^*^ You speak newspeak. Kool Phil #3 |
#97
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Things to think of before you get married again..
Phil wrote:
After childbirth, there should be equity. In some jurisdictions, that is the case; in others, it is not. That's an issue for legislatures to resolve. It is NOT the case in ANY jurisdiction in the US, PERIOD. So now you are resorting to lying. Disgusting. [Actually, folks, he doesn't want equity. He wants to keep all the money for himself.] |
#98
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Things to think of before you get married again..
Tripped over it again, did you?
Phil wrote: You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother doesn't tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have responsibilities and what are they? It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know that he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he still has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he definitely has legal accountability. How so? Because it's his semen. "His semen, his choice, his responsibility." What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least inform him of the pregnancy? You keep trying that sleazy trick, but it's not gonna work. That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any responsibility that he has. What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you* have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your being. Disgusting. |
#99
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"Fred" wrote in message . net... Phil wrote: After childbirth, there should be equity. In some jurisdictions, that is the case; in others, it is not. That's an issue for legislatures to resolve. It is NOT the case in ANY jurisdiction in the US, PERIOD. So now you are resorting to lying. How so? Should be easy to prove me wrong... except you can't. Few parents are equal after divorce and of those who are they almost always chose to go outside the court to gain said equality. Disgusting. What is disgusting is your acting like you got it all knowed up yet are totally ignorant. [Actually, folks, he doesn't want equity. He wants to keep all the money for himself.] You are a liar which is plain to see. You don't know what I want; you can only imagine and with your warped sense of judgment, you can't even do that right. Phil #3 |
#100
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Things to think of before you get married again..
"Fred" wrote in message . net... Tripped over it again, did you? Hardly. Phil wrote: You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother doesn't tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have responsibilities and what are they? It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know that he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he still has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he definitely has legal accountability. How so? Because it's his semen. So men are responsible when women lie or hide the fact. Got it. Could you BE any more biased? "His semen, his choice, his responsibility." All his fault, got it What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least inform him of the pregnancy? You keep trying that sleazy trick, but it's not gonna work. You cannot bring yourself to allow women to be responsible for jack. Every problem is some man's fault, got it. That's typical gender-feminism at it's 'finest'. That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any responsibility that he has. A responsibility you'd never place on a woman, obviously. What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you* have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your being. No, you just can't accept the fact that it's all lopsided, that women have all the choices and only the responsibility they choose while men have no choices yet exactly the responsibility the woman chooses for them. You're blind as well as stupid. Disgusting. That you are. Phil #3 |
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