Things to think of before you get married again..

"Fred" wrote in message
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Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
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Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
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teachrmama wrote:

Second question: If it is reasonable for a man to know *all* the
potential consequences of his actions, is it any less reasonable
for women to also know, which negates abortion on demand as a
reasonable response to accidental pregnancy?
Your bigotry is getting in the way again.

Abortion *is* one of the potential consequences.
No it isn't!
Sure it is! Your bigotry is distorting your understanding of the
nature of consequences.

Pregnancy can be a consequence of having sex.
And abortion can be a consequence of pregnancy. Doesn't have to be,
but it can be. It's one a of a range of possible consequences of
pregnancy, others of which are adoption and carrying to term. All are
consequences.

Another choice is legal abandonment. All the post-conception choices
are available to women while none are available to men so why are
choices he is not allowed to make a consequence to the man?
Because he is responsible for where his semen ends up.

You didn't even attempt to answer the question.

I did answer the question. You just don't want to recognize it, because to
do so would mean that you are prepared to accept responsibility for your
actions, and it is clear to me that, like the rest of your ilk, you won't
do that.

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

Won't confront that statement, either. Hits too close to the truth, I
guess.

It's like this: without his semen, there's no conception, without
conception, there is no pregnancy, without pregnancy, there is no
abortion, or abandonment, or live birth, or whatever outcome you choose to
list.

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

And no matter how hard you and your colleagues try to evade that
responsibility, y'all can't do it.

Sex may cause a pregnancy. Until a pregnancy occurs, both are equal in
deciding 1) to abstain from sex; 2) use contraception; 3) or do
nothing, hoping no pregnancy will occur. After pregnancy, the man has
no choices except those given by the woman and in fact, he may not even
be aware a pregnancy occurred. She is not even legally required to
inform him.
He should have thought of that before the fact. He should have been
responsible before the fact, because he sure as hell is gonna have to
own up to his responsibilities after the fact.

But women do not need to be responsible because we have men onto which to
pin responsibility for her decisions?

Women have responsibilities, too. But I don't see women trying to evade
their responsibilities, although there is one nutcase around here who
thinks they are. I do, however, see lots of men trying to do so.

And even if someone else was not as responsible as she might have been,
that does not serve to negate his responsibility in the matter.

Why do you feel women need the extra options that you seem to want to
forbid men?

What do you mean by "extra options"?

[this should be good ... ]

You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother doesn't
tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have responsibilities and
what are they?

It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know that he
did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he still has a
degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he definitely
has legal accountability.

What if she does as some do, and keep it a secret for a decade or so.
What are his responsibilities then?

See above.

But you didn't tell what the responsibilities are, Fred. Does he have to
pay child support all the way back to the birth of the child?

"Fred" wrote in message
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Tripped over it again, did you?

Phil wrote:

You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother doesn't
tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have responsibilities and
what are they?
It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know that
he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he still
has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he
definitely has legal accountability.

How so?

Because it's his semen.

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least inform
him of the pregnancy?

You keep trying that sleazy trick, but it's not gonna work.

That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any
responsibility that he has.

What a fool you are. How can he even begin to exercise any sort of
responsibility toward a child that he doesn't know exists? And what about
the mother depriving the child of a father? Is that ok with you because of
her gender? Whose fault would you say it is that the child is living in
poverty? The father who doesn't know the child exists? Or the mother who
never told the father?

What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you*
have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your being.

Oh, brother. I bet in your own mind you are hearing cries of "Preach it,
Brother. Amen to that preacher! Hallelujah!"

"Fred" wrote in message
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Phil wrote:

[distortion deleted]

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

All his fault, got it

What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least inform
him of the pregnancy?
You keep trying that sleazy trick, but it's not gonna work.

[distortion deleted]

That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any
responsibility that he has.

A responsibility you'd never place on a woman, obviously.

But I just *did* place responsibility on the woman, and I have done so
before. What bothers you is that I will not put up with your using the
woman's responsibility to negate the man's responsibility.

What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you*
have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your being.

No, you just can't accept the fact that it's all lopsided, that women
have all the choices and only the responsibility they choose while men
have no choices yet exactly the responsibility the woman chooses for
them.

That is factually false. And it's not the first time you've been factually
false, either.

What that boils down to is that the facts do not support your preferred
conclusions, and your arguments are not only factually bankrupt, but
morally bankrupt as well, so you are forced to resort to lying in a vain
attempt to maintain your bankrupt fiction.

Looking in the mirror again, are you.

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Fred" wrote in message
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Tripped over it again, did you?

Phil wrote:

You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother
doesn't tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have
responsibilities and what are they?
It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know that
he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he still
has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he
definitely has legal accountability.

How so?

Because it's his semen.

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least
inform him of the pregnancy?

You keep trying that sleazy trick, but it's not gonna work.

That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any
responsibility that he has.

What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you*
have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your being.

Disgusting.

Your little feminist biology lesson is based on wishful thinking and not
established biological information. How hard is it to understand eggs are
a
scarcer resource than sperm? And having a child takes a greater
investment
on the part of a woman. Because of those biological facts woman by nature
should be more selective in mates because a bad choice has long term
implications and is a reflection on her discretion in selecting the right
sperm.

To say men are responsible for women's bad choices in sperm is to transfer
the biological misjudgments made by women to men. The femwits who can't
accept their biological destiny want to have the state step in with
remedies
to cover up their biological mistakes. The state's solution is to use
men's
money to cover-up the lack of responsibility by women who don't select
good
mates.

You're going to give Frederika a heart attack with that one, Bob. snicker

"Tracy" wrote in message
. ..
"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Fred" wrote in message
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That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any
responsibility that he has.

What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you*
have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your being.

To say men are responsible for women's bad choices in sperm is to
transfer
the biological misjudgments made by women to men.

I'm jumping in here for a second because I have not seen a single sentence
Fred has written that suggests he is saying men are responsible for
women's bad choices. All he has said is that men should take
responsibility for where he puts his own penis. His ejaculation is due to
him placing his penis inside of the woman and engaging in the sexual act
with her. Pregnancy is a possible outcome of the act, which in most cases
the act itself is mutually agreed on. So I'm not sure why anyone is
reading more into someone stating that a man should take responsibility
for his choice - where to put his penis.

He has been asked quite a number of times what he sees to be women's
reponsibilities in all this, and he refuses to answer. If he is
misunderstood, as you say, he could solve the misunderstanding simply enough
by saying:

Men's responsibilities a

Women's responsibilities a


He has also claimed that there are jurisdicitions where
rights/responsibilities are equal for both mother and father, but has not
named the jusridicition, except to say that a couple of states consider the
situation of both parents in the whole custody/ support thing. Like he
thinks that because that's what they say, things are equal there! Absolute
naivete! He is obviously full of opinions, but has no real experience to
base his opinions on.


Tracy

"Fred" wrote in message
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Bob Whiteside wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
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Tripped over it again, did you?

Phil wrote:

You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother
doesn't tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have
responsibilities and what are they?
It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know that
he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he still
has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he
definitely has legal accountability.
How so?
Because it's his semen.

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least
inform him of the pregnancy?
You keep trying that sleazy trick, but it's not gonna work.

That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any
responsibility that he has.

What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you*
have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your being.

Disgusting.

Your little feminist biology lesson is based on wishful thinking and not
established biological information.

It's not his semen? Whose semen is it, hers? You're gonna tell us that she
impregnated herself? Or are you going for immaculate conception?

How hard is it to understand eggs are a scarcer resource than sperm?

And how, exactly, does that negate the biological fact that it's his
semen, and that without his semen there's no pregnancy?

What y'all are all about is negating the male's responsibility by pointing
to the female's responsibility. Well, last time I read a biology book, it
took two to procreate, which makes both of them responsible for the
outcome.

To say men are responsible for women's bad choices in sperm is to
transfer
the biological misjudgments made by women to men.

So don't say that. I haven't, and you shouldn't, either.

The femwits who can't
accept their biological destiny want to have the state step in with
remedies
to cover up their biological mistakes. The state's solution is to use
men's
money to cover-up the lack of responsibility by women who don't select
good
mates.

And as always with y'all shirkers, it's all about the money.

At least you are honest enough to admit it, I'll give you that.

Problem is, the facts don't support your desired conclusions, so you're
forced to resort to falsehoods, spin, and assorted trickery. But you can't
get past the essential facts:

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

"Her body, her choice, her responsibility."

"For every choice, a consequence."

You just assume everyone here is a shirker, don't you. What a hoot!

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Fred" wrote in message
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Bob Whiteside wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
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Tripped over it again, did you?

Phil wrote:

You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother
doesn't tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have
responsibilities and what are they?
It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know
that
he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he
still
has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he
definitely has legal accountability.
How so?
Because it's his semen.

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

What about the moral responsibility she should have to at least
inform him of the pregnancy?
You keep trying that sleazy trick, but it's not gonna work.

That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any
responsibility that he has.

What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you*
have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your
being.

Disgusting.

Your little feminist biology lesson is based on wishful thinking and
not
established biological information.

It's not his semen? Whose semen is it, hers? You're gonna tell us that
she impregnated herself? Or are you going for immaculate conception?

Actually, all your questions are irrelevant.


How hard is it to understand eggs are a scarcer resource than sperm?

And how, exactly, does that negate the biological fact that it's his
semen, and that without his semen there's no pregnancy?

What y'all are all about is negating the male's responsibility by
pointing to the female's responsibility. Well, last time I read a
biology book, it took two to procreate, which makes both of them
responsible for the outcome.

Actually, what you think is irrevelant.


To say men are responsible for women's bad choices in sperm is to
transfer
the biological misjudgments made by women to men.

So don't say that. I haven't, and you shouldn't, either.

Actually, no one cares what you say.


The femwits who can't
accept their biological destiny want to have the state step in with
remedies
to cover up their biological mistakes. The state's solution is to use
men's
money to cover-up the lack of responsibility by women who don't select
good
mates.

And as always with y'all shirkers, it's all about the money.

At least you are honest enough to admit it, I'll give you that.

Actually, we are just toying with you so you can make a bigger ass of
yourself.


Problem is, the facts don't support your desired conclusions, so you're
forced to resort to falsehoods, spin, and assorted trickery. But you
can't get past the essential facts:

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

"Her body, her choice, her responsibility."

"For every choice, a consequence."

Actually, nobody buys your bull**** conclusions!

And actually, by the way, nobody believes you are a "Fred."

Oh, Bob! Now you've gone and spoiled our fun! We haven't had anyone like
Fred(erika) here in a loooong time!!

"Fred" wrote in

Both base child support on the combined gross incomes of both parents,


That's after they impute his income up and impute her income down, then it's
calulated.

Have a friend whose ex's income was imputed down to the point of where they
said she was earning only $800/mth as an RN.

"Phil" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Fred" wrote in message
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Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
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Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
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Andre Lieven wrote:
"Tracy" ) writes:
"Gini" wrote in message
news:v25Vg.2469$6S2.1287@trndny02...
wrote
.............................
Deary, a vasectomy is cheaper than a month of child support. If
you
don't want to breed, don't have sex with a fertile woman,
==
And how is he to know when she is fertile?
Isn't a vasectomy only cheaper than a month of child support if
child support is more than a vasecotmy? How much is a vasectomy?
How much is a tubal ligation ?
Here's something interesting:

"The cost of vasectomy is typically 3 to 4 times less than the cost
of tubal ligation. Although prices vary, regionally, vasectomy costs
generally range from about two hundrend fifty to one thousand
dollars, while the cost of tubal ligation often begin at about one
thousand dollars and may go as high as twenty-five hundred dollars.
The cost difference is mainly due to the fact of where each procedure
is performed; an office procedure vs. a hospital procedure."

http://womenshealth.about.com/cs/ste...zhisorhe_3.htm

But it's not really about cost, is it?

It's about taking responsibility.
Apparently, it's about applying responsibility to only men as noted in
your next statement.
Your bigotry is showing. But on we go ...

Equality is bigotry???

You aren't talking about equality. You are talking about inequality, as
in assigning responsibility to one in a matter where it is properly
assigned to both.

Men and women share responsibility for any pregnancy that occurs when they
agree to have sex. BOTH and equally, not just the man. You are bending
over backward to promote the idea that men are solely responsible for any
pregnancy while saying absolutely nothing about any responsibility the
woman may or may not have. Why is that?

She's pregnant?

"Fred" wrote in message
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Tracy wrote:
"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...
"Fred" wrote in message
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That she has such a moral responsibility does not serve to negate any
responsibility that he has.

What I'm asking you to do is to accept the responsibilities that *you*
have, and you respond by resisting that with every fiber of your being.

To say men are responsible for women's bad choices in sperm is to
transfer
the biological misjudgments made by women to men.

I'm jumping in here for a second because I have not seen a single
sentence Fred has written that suggests he is saying men are responsible
for women's bad choices. All he has said is that men should take
responsibility for where he puts his own penis. His ejaculation is due
to him placing his penis inside of the woman and engaging in the sexual
act with her. Pregnancy is a possible outcome of the act, which in most
cases the act itself is mutually agreed on. So I'm not sure why anyone
is reading more into someone stating that a man should take
responsibility for his choice - where to put his penis.

At the end of the day, it's all about the money.

These males are trying to evade responsibility for their choices so as to
falsely justify not having to pay child support, or medical bills, or
whatever else they might have to spend on someone else as a result of
their choices. And "someone else" includes the child.

I could understand an argument based on the child support laws in a given
jurisdiction being based only on the income of the noncustodial parent.
That's simply not equitable. But that is not the case in every
jurisdiction, and even if it is in a given jurisdiction, it speaks to
challenging or changing the law, as has been done here in Minnesota, not
using an inequitable law as justification to evade supporting his child.

All I'm asking is that both men and women take responsibility for their
choices. What's wrong with that?

O dunno, Freddi. Have you ever told us exactly what you think the woman's
responsibilities are? Is birthing the child her only responsibility? It's
the only thing you have pointedly mentioned. You haven't even voiced an
objection to her not informing the father that he is a father for a decade
or moreoobut you still claim that the father is responsible during that
entire time even if he didn't know he was a father. What, exactly, do you
see the woman's responsibility to be?