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#141
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TN - Child support termination bill attacked
"Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... "teachrmama" wrote in message ... snip You, Chris, wish to put into place a system as evil as the one you hate so passionately. You are no better than the people you despise. Describe such evil system, and then explain WHY it's evil. Look at the system you hate so much, replace those who cater to women with those who cater to men and--voila--there is the system you espouse. In your WILDEST dreams! Never have I suggested that men rip-off women, NEVER! Now prove me wrong. You want to put into place a system that does not even begin to consider the *real importance* of a father in a child's life, and have men be roaming tomcats that can come and go as their lust or pleasure dictrates, with no responsibilities whatsoever. That is as eveil as the system that says men are only worth their wallets, and have no other value in a child's life. Straw man. Again, PROVE that I have ever suggested that men rip-off women; PROVE IT! Constantly, Chris. All the time. Just exactly what do you think is going to happen if you manage to put into place your system of holding men totally blameless for every birth? Do you think that there will be fewer births? Do you think that men will say "Oh, well, if I'm not going to be held responsible for the children my sperm help create, I guess I won't have sex any more." What do you think will be the end result of your ideas regarding no responsibility for fathers? |
#142
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TN - Child support termination bill attacked
-- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] .. .. "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message m... "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message m... "teachrmama" wrote in message ... snip for length If men are to have equal (or higher) responsibility, they must have equal (or higher) choice. The current system of sexist laws give all choices to women and all responsibility to men (unless the mother chooses otherwise) and there are still some women demanding more options and less responsibility for women. And that is wrong--but taking all responsibility away from men is NOT going to fix that. Yes, it will. It puts the responsibility on the ONE that has the options. If women demand 100% of the options in reproduction with it should come an equal % of responsibility. The solution, of course, is to give both 50% of both responsibility and options. I agree with that, Phil. What I do **not** agree with is the idea that a man can lust after a "newer model" and walk out on his wife of 20 years and their 9, 12, and 16 year old without looking back beause **he** did not give birth to them. Which is nothing more than holding a man responsible for the choice the mother made. Even IF he was in favor of having children, the ultimate and unilateral decision is the mothers only. So you no longer believe in family or fatherhood. How very, very sad, Phil. Argumentum ad misericordiam. Yes, you do seem to be pretty miserable, Chris. Apparently, I failed to communicate my message. I still believe in both, and feel that they are worth fighting for. Add to that, even if he wants to be a father, supports the mother AND the children for years, he can be kicked out of the family without much trouble and still be held responsible for paying the mother a large percentage of his income. Which is just as wrong as giving him the legal right to just walk away because he does not have a uterus. What do you say about the men in families who adopted children? Shall they be held to supporting thier children, even though they did not bear those children themselves? That depends on how the contract is written. Of course, for you, Chris, the **only** answer is that the WOMAN should bear the full brunt of the responsibility. That is obvious from reading what you write. And you'd be correct. Full choice = FULL responsibility. I always believed that four quarters have equal value to a dollar; but your argument is starting to make me second guess. =================== And you want it no other way. You WANT women to have full choice so you will NEVER have to accept responsibility. Correction: I don't "want" it ANY way. Women already have full choice. ======================== The idea that men are responsible while handing all the options to women and allowing them to choose their level of responsibility, if any at all, is completely unpalatable. Of course it is. But telling men that they have nos responsibility whatsoever for children is **NOT** going to fix that, is it? YES, it is! For you, of course that seems the answer. Then you can impregnate at will and never have to worry about it. All hail the mighty man, Chris. It is PRECISELY the thought process demonstrated in the above statements that runs the "child support" industry. ======================= That's right, Chris!!! That is what I have been saying all along. Your mentality is ***exactly*** like theirs, but in your way of doing things, MEN will be the ones with no responsibility, and only WOMEN will have to pay. EXACTLY the same thinking, Chris!! You have finally seen where your thought process has led you. I was making reference to YOU. That said, my thought process is anything BUT like theirs. You see, for some strange reason, I happen to believe that responsibilities AND rights are a package deal. One cannot exist without the other. Contrarily, you and the other "child support" folks believe the opposite. Additionally, NOWHERE did I ever claim that women should pay anyone anything. Get it right. So you are thinking that when good old dad walks out because he did not choose to et pregnant and give birth himself--and takes his paycheck with him which, until that time, had helped support the household--mom is **not** going to have to pay anything? No. =================================== Oh, yeah, that's right. It doesn't cost one thin dime to support children. A statement you have made but never bothered to back up. You're the one who claims it does. So how about YOU back up your claim. ================================ Hmmm....interesting...... But then you have consistently maintained that no man anywhere should ever, ever, ever have any responsibility toward a child if he doesn't want to because he does not have a uterus. I have NEVER made such claim. ====================== Yes you have. You say that, since men do not have the final decision on whetehr or not a birth takes place, they should have no responsibility toward the children. Remember? No, because neither of your above two allegations of what I said are true. I never claimed that "no man anywhere should ever" have such responsibility, nor have I ever claimed that this is because they lack a uterus. And, since the final decision obviously belongs to the one who will do the birthing, that means that men will never be responsible. Correction: Since the final decision obviously belongs to the one who will do the birthing, that means that men "are not" responsible "for such decision". You have taken it so far as to say that a father can walk out on his teenagers who he has raised since their births because he did not make the decision to bith them. Your point? ============================ YOU are malionh biology the determinant of responsibility, because you **know** that you will never have the parts to bring a child to birth. Untrue. ====================== You mean you do plan to have the parts required to give birth some day? Go back and carefully read your claim to which I responded; then you might see how non sequitur your question is. ============================ But you do not seem to understand the first thing about being a father. In YOUR opinion. ==================================== An opinion formed from what you say here, Chris. STILL, just an opinion. ============================ |
#143
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TN - Child support termination bill attacked
"Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... snip So you are thinking that when good old dad walks out because he did not choose to et pregnant and give birth himself--and takes his paycheck with him which, until that time, had helped support the household--mom is **not** going to have to pay anything? No. =================================== Oh, yeah, that's right. It doesn't cost one thin dime to support children. A statement you have made but never bothered to back up. You're the one who claims it does. So how about YOU back up your claim. ================================ chuckle I have discovered that my children need clothing to wear and food to eat--and people get in big trouble fro shoplifting, so it is necessary to pay $$ at the store for these things. Now, I have a garden and plenty of fruit trees, so I won't count those into the cost of caring for my daughters. But I do not slaughter animals for meat or grow grains for flour, nor do I have a milk cow, so there are still food items that must be purchased. And, although I di sew, fabric must still be purchased to provide clothing, because, believe it or not, I do not raise sheep for the wool or grow cotton. Barter? With whom? Please explain how, in this day and age in this country, a person can support children with no money whatsoever. Do not hark back to bygopne eras or point to other countries---today, in this country. Hmmm....interesting...... But then you have consistently maintained that no man anywhere should ever, ever, ever have any responsibility toward a child if he doesn't want to because he does not have a uterus. I have NEVER made such claim. ====================== Yes you have. You say that, since men do not have the final decision on whetehr or not a birth takes place, they should have no responsibility toward the children. Remember? No, because neither of your above two allegations of what I said are true. I never claimed that "no man anywhere should ever" have such responsibility, nor have I ever claimed that this is because they lack a uterus. ===================== No, you claim it is because *only the woman* can make the decision as to whether conception will result in childbirth. The reason *only the woman* has been given that legal right is because the child grows in her body--in her uterus (something that men lack). You also deny the fact that a man and a woman can decide together to have a child. You claim that only the woman makes that decision--and you base it on the *legal* issue, never seeming to comprehend that there are things that are far beyond the mere legal. Such as a committed couple deciding to have a child together. And, since the final decision obviously belongs to the one who will do the birthing, that means that men will never be responsible. Correction: Since the final decision obviously belongs to the one who will do the birthing, that means that men "are not" responsible "for such decision". And that is just what I have been saying about you all along, Chris. You feel that because men pnysically cannot give birth, they cannot be part of the decision to have a child. I disagree. You are wrong. You have taken it so far as to say that a father can walk out on his teenagers who he has raised since their births because he did not make the decision to bith them. Your point? You feel that it is ok for men to abandon their children. You feel that they have the *legal right* to do so, just because women have a *legal right* to abortion. You compound evil with more evil. |
#144
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TN - Child support termination bill attacked
"teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "Phil" wrote in message m... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message [snip] And that was very, very wrong. THAT is what needs to be changed in the system. Neither gender should get to behave that way!! We need balance and fairness. A concept FOREIGN to you. Now, Chris, TM is well aware of the problems in the system of divorce and custody, especially custody and child support. She understands that well. So long as she denies the relationship between rights (or "choice" as you put it) and responsibilities, she does NOT understand it. And guess what, she DENIES it! I use the word "choice" because "rights", by law must be equal and the "choice" of men and women in reproductive matters is vastly different (men have none). I think the problem she is having in understanding the full control over all matters of reproduction that women have is because she is sincere in her marriage being a partnership. I think we need to separate out post-conception rights and custody rights. Men's post-comceptiom rights should be equitable to women's. Havin a safe-have type law would cover that issue. I prefer the other direction in that parents, regardless their sex be responsible for the children they create and if actually unable to actually care for them, to pay someone else to do so. Meaning that no one gets to just walk away from their responsibility. Custody is an entirely different issue. Custody kicks in when both parents want to be active parents in their child's life and have forgone their safe-haven choices. That is when default 50/50 joint custody should kick in. Just saying that men should be able to walk away from any child at any time because they do not have the anatomy to bear children is as bad as saying that men should pay child support for every child simply becuse they are men. But we absolutely must separate out post-comception and custody issues. As long as none of it is dependent on one's sex, which is the way it is currently done for both reproduction choices and custody. I heavily disagree with any parent simply abandoning an infant, mother or father. Interestingly, one of the arguments for the current system of child support is that it keeps the state from having to pay for this unwanted child yet these same people (feminists) demand that women be allowed to abandon any unwanted children, leaving them for the state to finance and no one seems to catch that they are talking out of both sides of their mouths on this issue (and others). Phil #3 |
#145
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TN - Child support termination bill attacked
"Phil" wrote in message m... "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "Phil" wrote in message m... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message [snip] And that was very, very wrong. THAT is what needs to be changed in the system. Neither gender should get to behave that way!! We need balance and fairness. A concept FOREIGN to you. Now, Chris, TM is well aware of the problems in the system of divorce and custody, especially custody and child support. She understands that well. So long as she denies the relationship between rights (or "choice" as you put it) and responsibilities, she does NOT understand it. And guess what, she DENIES it! I use the word "choice" because "rights", by law must be equal and the "choice" of men and women in reproductive matters is vastly different (men have none). I think the problem she is having in understanding the full control over all matters of reproduction that women have is because she is sincere in her marriage being a partnership. I think we need to separate out post-conception rights and custody rights. Men's post-comceptiom rights should be equitable to women's. Havin a safe-have type law would cover that issue. I prefer the other direction in that parents, regardless their sex be responsible for the children they create and if actually unable to actually care for them, to pay someone else to do so. Meaning that no one gets to just walk away from their responsibility. ================ I agree with you, Phil. But I doubt we are going to get that genie shoved back into the bottle in our lifetimes. Barring that, giving both genders safe haven protection is a necessary step to equitability. AND requiring tha parent who opts to keep the child to be able to support the child is another necessary step. If you can't afford children, don't have them. This would end the babies-for-money thing very quickly. People scream and howl about the horrors of taking a baby from a mother, but nobody even raises an eyebrow about taking babies from fathers. Let's bring some equity into this area, too. ================== Custody is an entirely different issue. Custody kicks in when both parents want to be active parents in their child's life and have forgone their safe-haven choices. That is when default 50/50 joint custody should kick in. Just saying that men should be able to walk away from any child at any time because they do not have the anatomy to bear children is as bad as saying that men should pay child support for every child simply becuse they are men. But we absolutely must separate out post-comception and custody issues. As long as none of it is dependent on one's sex, which is the way it is currently done for both reproduction choices and custody. I heavily disagree with any parent simply abandoning an infant, mother or father. ================== I would look at it as 'abandined to' rather than 'abandined by'. We need to take those long lists of couples waiting and praying for babies to adopt and use them for good. When women find out that Big Daddy Gubmint will no longer support them just because they pop out babies, I think the illegitimate birth rate will dry up over night. I'd rather have the babies abandoned to good homes than the mothers eternally supported by my tax dollars! ================================= Interestingly, one of the arguments for the current system of child support is that it keeps the state from having to pay for this unwanted child yet these same people (feminists) demand that women be allowed to abandon any unwanted children, leaving them for the state to finance and no one seems to catch that they are talking out of both sides of their mouths on this issue (and others). ===================== Yep--the neverending story. |
#146
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TN - Child support termination bill attacked
-- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] .. .. "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message m... "teachrmama" wrote in message ... snip for length If men are to have equal (or higher) responsibility, they must have equal (or higher) choice. The current system of sexist laws give all choices to women and all responsibility to men (unless the mother chooses otherwise) and there are still some women demanding more options and less responsibility for women. And that is wrong--but taking all responsibility away from men is NOT going to fix that. Yes, it will. It puts the responsibility on the ONE that has the options. If women demand 100% of the options in reproduction with it should come an equal % of responsibility. The solution, of course, is to give both 50% of both responsibility and options. I agree with that, Phil. What I do **not** agree with is the idea that a man can lust after a "newer model" and walk out on his wife of 20 years and their 9, 12, and 16 year old without looking back beause **he** did not give birth to them. Of course not, because you subscribe to the idea of a man being held LEGALLY responsible for the woman's SOLE LEGAL choice. That, of course, is the root of the disagreement, Chris. I see a father as a father--not just some individual providing for some woman's children until he is tired of doing so. You seem to take the opposite stand. For what it's worth, he is both a father AND "some individual". And guess what, he IS providing for some woman's child. And guess what else, according to their rules, he can walk at any time. It simply follows. chuckle He is raising his own children as well, Chris. Of course, for individuals just looking for ways to escape responsibility, that doesn't count, does it? THE problem here is that she has choice, he has responsibility. She can escape the responsibility of her choices by abortion or even after birth by legal abandonment neither choice is available to him. He has no choices beyond conception yet is responsible but only if SHE decides he is and to the extent she allows/demands. And once the time period for legal abandonment is past, and they are raising the children together, that doesn't matter any more. You cannot hark back to the "birth choice" forever. Why not? If, like Chris said, he generously made your house payment for 12 years and suddenly stopped he would have no legal responsibility to continue. A child and a house are 2 different things, Phil. Irrelevant. My husband and I chose to have our children. **Both** of us made the choice. Impossible. Why would his choice to have and raise these children be seen as any different from my choice to do so. Yes, I could have prevented the children from being born--but I didn't. So why do you see the children that *both of us chose to have, and have loved and nurtured, to be only **my** responsibility? SOLE choice = SOLE responsiblity. Quite simple. This sounds eerily like those fathers who found out years after the birth of their children that they weren't their kids yet were forced to continue to support them because that is what the children were accustomed to, not that it was necessary. But **that** is fraud! It is not at all the same thing. Never mind the fact that he "chose" to have them, and he chose to raise them together with the mother. It is EXACTLY the same thing! No it's not. Your reading comprehension needs some fine tuning Enlighten me. What makes them different in principle? You don't want to be enlightened, Chris. You want to change the current darkness that you hate for darkness more to your liking. I don't tell you what YOU want, so please don't tell me what I want. Again, what makes them different? You post consistently what you want: Total freedom to have sex with no fear of ever being held responsible for a child. MEN having no responsibilities toward children because they have no uteri--women bearing the entire burden because they do. Are you trying to say that you have not expressed these thoughts, Chris? For some strange reason my mind just drew a blank. Perhaps you can help me with a few quotes. For the last time, what makes them different? See what a twisted, warped liar you are, Chris. You play these stupid little word tap=dance games. You most assuredly **have** said that men do not maker the decision to give birth, so they should be free to walk away from their children--even years and years after they are born. You have said that it is impossible for a man to be part of the decision for a child to be born, so the resulting child is **not** his responsibility. One cannot be held accountable for that which they have not said. That you find quotes to be "stupid little word tap=dance games" does not change this fact. As for the answer to my question: Strike three, you're OUT! |
#147
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TN - Child support termination bill attacked
-- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] .. .. "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "Phil" wrote in message m... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message [snip] And that was very, very wrong. THAT is what needs to be changed in the system. Neither gender should get to behave that way!! We need balance and fairness. A concept FOREIGN to you. Now, Chris, TM is well aware of the problems in the system of divorce and custody, especially custody and child support. She understands that well. So long as she denies the relationship between rights (or "choice" as you put it) and responsibilities, she does NOT understand it. And guess what, she DENIES it! I use the word "choice" because "rights", by law must be equal and the "choice" of men and women in reproductive matters is vastly different (men have none). I think the problem she is having in understanding the full control over all matters of reproduction that women have is because she is sincere in her marriage being a partnership. I think we need to separate out post-conception rights and custody rights. Men's post-comceptiom rights should be equitable to women's. Havin a safe-have type law would cover that issue. Custody is an entirely different issue. Custody kicks in when both parents want to be active parents in their child's life and have forgone their safe-haven choices. That is when default 50/50 joint custody should kick in. Just saying that men should be able to walk away from any child at any time because they do not have the anatomy to bear children Is someone saying that? =========================== Yes, Chris! YOU! Oh? Perhaps you might quote just what I said that leads you to believe so. You have stated that because ONLY a woman can choose to bring a child to birth, ONLY a woman is responsible for the child. You point blank told me that my husband had *no choice* in the decision to bring our children into the world! ================================ is as bad as saying that men should pay child support for every child simply becuse they are men. But we absolutely must separate out post-comception and custody issues. Just curious: Since the woman makes the SOLE CHOICE to bear a child, why should the father (who was already FORCED to be a parent) be FURTHER forced to make any decision regarding her child? ====================== And that is exactly what I am talking about. You hold the man completely unaccountable in every way for the creation of the child because he does not have the anatomy to give birth and, therefore, does not have the ***legal*** final choice in the matter. Untrue. The answer to my question is? |
#148
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TN - Child support termination bill attacked
"teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message m... "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message m... "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message m... "teachrmama" wrote in message ... snip for length If men are to have equal (or higher) responsibility, they must have equal (or higher) choice. The current system of sexist laws give all choices to women and all responsibility to men (unless the mother chooses otherwise) and there are still some women demanding more options and less responsibility for women. And that is wrong--but taking all responsibility away from men is NOT going to fix that. Yes, it will. It puts the responsibility on the ONE that has the options. If women demand 100% of the options in reproduction with it should come an equal % of responsibility. The solution, of course, is to give both 50% of both responsibility and options. I agree with that, Phil. What I do **not** agree with is the idea that a man can lust after a "newer model" and walk out on his wife of 20 years and their 9, 12, and 16 year old without looking back beause **he** did not give birth to them. Which is nothing more than holding a man responsible for the choice the mother made. Even IF he was in favor of having children, the ultimate and unilateral decision is the mothers only. So you no longer believe in family or fatherhood. How very, very sad, Phil. I still believe in both, and feel that they are worth fighting for. The family and fatherhood has been virtually eliminated by modern feminism. It's been dead for a couple of decades now since the advent of abortion-as-birth-control and "no-fault divorce" added to the anti-male court decisions and tactics. The first thing that will be needed to fight for them is to fight for the equalization of rights AND responsibilities of both parties. As long as abortion on demand is available to women without any consideration to the father and as long as "no-fault divorce" exists coupled to the anti-male legal procedures available to women of questionable moral standards, nothing can change for the better. Absolutely. But do you eally believe that the judges that sit in family court are gong to listen and/or uphold the "rights/responsibilities" argumant, and permit men to walk away from any responsibility just because they do not have any rights? I cannot see that happening. Of course not. We live in a highly feminized society where women are given special legal abilities without the same responsibility that men have. This includes more than reproductive rights and includes criminal charges, divorce, custody, child support, the armed forces, jobs, sexual harassment, etc. I can, however, see small inroads in the demand for 50/50 custody. It is going to be a long and bloody battle. We need to fight for rights for men in several areas. I see no major changes, only individual skirmishes won that carry no meaning in the overall war. But we also need to fight for MORE RESPONSILILITY for the women who, at this point in time, are living off of men, and have absolutely no means or desrie to support themselves and their children. Holding women accountable would be a MAJOR step!! No argument from me there. Women should be held to the same standard as men and visa versa but I don't believe it can happen in my lifetime. Add to that, even if he wants to be a father, supports the mother AND the children for years, he can be kicked out of the family without much trouble and still be held responsible for paying the mother a large percentage of his income. Which is just as wrong as giving him the legal right to just walk away because he does not have a uterus. What do you say about the men in families who adopted children? Shall they be held to supporting thier children, even though they did not bear those children themselves? Good point, TM. The main difference is that he had to be proactive in making the step to become a legal parent and could have chosen NOT to be a parent at any time up until actually signing the document legalizing his responsibility. In other words, he had a clear and definite legal choice and had to take actual steps to become a parent. A married man is the father and has no options other than to be celebate, which is not likely to be a long or happy marriage. My husband and I decided together to bring our children into the world. He is not a "victim." We both love our children and want the best for them. One is 13.5, and the other is truning 15 on Weds. How can you say that his choice/responsibility is any less than that of an adoptive father? That is where my understanding breaks down. I don't understand how you interpret his parenthood as being *forced* when he loves and wanted our girls just as much as I did. You allowed his voice to have meaning, the state didn't. Legally, he has no position in the decision. What would have been the result had you discovered an unplanned pregnancy and he definitely didn't want a child but you did? It is like the case of a cop stopping a vehicle being driven by a drunk driver. Even though the passenger may have wanted the drunk driver to drive, is the passenger at all responsible? The current situation is like putting the passenger in jail and allowing the driver to just walk away. So you are saying women should be likened to drunks and men likened to passengers? You're don't understand analogies, do you? I'm saying that men are given responsibilies for the choices women make. The idea that men are responsible while handing all the options to women and allowing them to choose their level of responsibility, if any at all, is completely unpalatable. Of course it is. But telling men that they have nos responsibility whatsoever for children is **NOT** going to fix that, is it? Yes, it puts the responsiblility directly on the only one capable of making the decision. Unilateral rights deserve unilateral responsibility in regard to those rights. Do you really think you could ever bring that into law? If family courts fight to give women the majority of the options now, what makes you think you could **ever** get things changed to women being the ones being screwed by the law and men having all the choices? I don't think women will ever be put on equal footing with men and for several reasons, the primary one being it would require them to give up the legal superiority they've managed to obtain. Still, women don't become pregnant by osmosis, superstition or religious beliefs. The problem is that both parents are responsible for a pregnancy, planned or not but only women have a choice. Giving both the same choice does not put any more responsibility on women, it just makes them responsible for the choices they make and removes the ability to place responsiblity on the man. The much better choice would be to equalize the options of both. If women can have an abortion for any or no reason, a father should have the same ability in the same time period to make the same decision to abort his responsibility toward a child he doesn't want. Then make both parents truly equal (in responsibility and authority) of any born children. This would also require some new laws such as a mother that in any way hides the birth of a child from the father should not be able to sue for child support, etc. You know that I totally agree with that! Equal rights and responsibilities. Default 50/50 custody. Fatherhood and Motherhood being equally important in the lives of children. That, of course, is the root of the disagreement, Chris. I see a father as a father--not just some individual providing for some woman's children until he is tired of doing so. You seem to take the opposite stand. For what it's worth, he is both a father AND "some individual". And guess what, he IS providing for some woman's child. And guess what else, according to their rules, he can walk at any time. It simply follows. chuckle He is raising his own children as well, Chris. Of course, for individuals just looking for ways to escape responsibility, that doesn't count, does it? THE problem here is that she has choice, he has responsibility. She can escape the responsibility of her choices by abortion or even after birth by legal abandonment neither choice is available to him. He has no choices beyond conception yet is responsible but only if SHE decides he is and to the extent she allows/demands. And once the time period for legal abandonment is past, and they are raising the children together, that doesn't matter any more. You cannot hark back to the "birth choice" forever. Why not? If, like Chris said, he generously made your house payment for 12 years and suddenly stopped he would have no legal responsibility to continue. A child and a house are 2 different things, Phil. Yet the principle is the same. Not at all. My husband and I chose to have our children. **Both** of us made the choice. No, you "both" didn't. He may have been in favor of it, begged, pleaded or even paid you to have a child but legally the choice is yours and yours alone. Not at all true, Phil. What legal rights do you think he had that you could not legally subvert? But I **didn't**!!! That doesn't answer the question. What legal options did he have in this matter? Doesn't personal integrity enter in at all?? Legally, no. The law only recognizes YOUR choice. Morally, yes if you feel morally bound to honor his decision; either way, the law still recognizes your choice only. He and I agreed. We BOTH made the commitment! Together you agreed but only he was committed at conception, you still had legal options. And continue to do so each and every day. Just because the law says I could do otherwise does not mean that I would disgrace myself in such a way. It doesn't matter what you would or would not do, you had the legal options that he lacked. THAT is the problem. Many women change their minds and disregard their husband's wishes. What *you* would do doesn't help those men at all. And there are many of us who feel the exact same way! I even know quite a number of divorced couples who would not **dream** of subjugating their children to the idiocy of fighting over who is the most important parent. This NG exists because many would and do. I sometimes wonder which is the larger number; those who do right or those who are greedy and selfish. Honor still means something to most people. I'm not sure I agree. I think greed and false pride has replaced honor. We just happen to be caust up in a system that is run by slimeballs, and it is easy to forget that most people would be shocked if they ever really knew what is going onm and paid for by their hard-earned tax dollars. People don't care as long as they have "reality TV shows" like "Biggest Loser", "Survivor" until reality shows up on their doorstep. I was the same way. The only way this could be true is if his desire to produce and have a child was legally binding on you in any form or fashion OR he had the ability to deny responsibility for the child. But, again, you are just looking at the slimey system--not at the honor and dignity that are the biggest part of our commitment to each other and our children. You have far more faith in people than I. There are many, many disgraceful things that we choose not to be part of. Just because they are available does not mean that we should be held responsible for what "might be done." No, not at all. One should be held responsible for the choices they make and to the degree they are allowed to make them. Since men have no legal options beyond conception and women do, the sole responsiblity for the women's decision should be women's. The alternative is giving men the same or similar options, which even out the responsibility or remove the special options of women putting them on the same plane. YOU had unilateral choices in reproduction. He had ONLY the rights you allowed him to have. WE had and have a commitment to each other and to our children. That is far more important than the idiot laws that produce possibilities that we would never consider. Do you really think YOUR level of commitment has any bearing on all those who were legally bound to accept the choice they were not allowed to make? It sounds almost like you're saying that since you would never steal, we don't need laws making it illegal. A law that forces you to do what you would do anyway would not change anything. Why would his choice to have and raise these children be seen as any different from my choice to do so. Because the way the courts are, he has no choices, only the responsiblilty you choose for him. Virtually all divorces with children result in the custody the mother chooses along with a promise of a monthly paycheck. You may pretend to give him equal responsibility, even sincerely believe you are equal parents but legally, you are not and never will be. People are what they choose to be, Phil. You can say all you want that I am "pretending" to give him rights to OUR children, but you are WRONG. You are far too jaded, and need to take a step back and realize that there are still decent, caring people in this world. It doesn't matter how decent and caring a man is, he simply does not have any choices in reproduction, (except to remain celebate and even that doesn't always work thanks to the courts). Regardless the fact that you regard this choice as a joint decision, 100% of the legal rights remain yours and yours alone even if you CHOSE not to enforce them. It is sad that you consider "legal rights" to be more important than personal choice. I just do not see it that way. So you're saying that your choice to drive 50 MPH in a residential street should be more important than the law that says you should drive 25 or less? You are apparently assuming that most people do what is right, I disagree. I DO believe that someone who will make the right choice will not be bothered by a law that makes others do what is right. There ARE many, many good and honorable people out there who will **never** avail themselves of the legal rights you speak of, but you seem to be tarring all women with the same brush. Many people don't get drunk and drive but it is still illegal, *even for those who don't drink*. Many people won't steal but it's still illegal *even for those who would never steal*. Does making an action illegal make any difference to those who would never commit the action? Yes, I could have prevented the children from being born--but I didn't. But the choice was yours and yours alone. It doesn't matter WHICH choice you made, the fact remains that the only one with actual choice was YOU. NO, Phil, the choice was OURS, and we made it together. No, that's where you're wrong. You gave his input meaning. His 'choice' to have a child was wholly dependent on you, either way. So? Why is this so important to you? Do you really think that all women are so shallow that they have their "legal rights" uppermost in their minds, and are just waiting for an opportunity to harm their husbands? It doesn't matter whether they are just waiting for the opportunity, removing the opportunity provides protection to those who need it. It won't affect the honest and upright. It's important to me because it affects me and will affect my children. I want the same protection for my sons that would be afforded to my daughters (if I'd had any). You were under no legal obligation to produce a child regardless how badly he wanted one and he would be responsible for any child he produced that he didn't want. That you allowed his opinion to have the meaning you ascribed to it was still not legally binding in any manner. There you are with the "legal" again. I don't live my life with that as my primary focus. Sure you do. That you would not rob or steal does not invalidate the fact that it is illegal for YOU to do so. You don't even think about the fact that it is illegal for you to steal because you wouldn't do it anyway. However, some, in fact many, would. While you would not steal, the law protects your property whether you think about it or not. Would you pay the mother of your husband's child the same amount if not forced by law or would you rather actually support the child in question? Would you pay the same income tax if not forced by law? Without a law permitting it, (actually a Constitutional amendment which is a law) you could not vote. If you stop at a stop sign even when you can see there is no other traffic, you are only obeying the law because there is no *other* reason to stop. The laws affect you every day of your life and in most of the things you do, even if you don't actually think about it and despite the fact that you would not do othewise even without a law. So why do you see the children that *both of us chose to have, and have loved and nurtured, to be only **my** responsibility? With authority should come an equal responsibility. Unilateral choice deserves unilateral responsibilty. Now you are being unfair, and telling men that they can lie to women, marry them with no intention of ever being there for any children that come along, get them pregnant and walk away--all the nasty things you object to women doing you WANT men to be able to do. Is that truly how you want things to be? No, you obviously don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that responsibility should be equal to one's choices. If anyone has unilateral choices, they should have unilateral responsiblilty for those choices. But, Phil, men will **never** be able to bear children--any more than women can create a child withou at leas some small help from a man. That is the biology if it. Do you really think it would be right for all women everywhere to always be 100% responsible for every child, with men **never** having any responsibility for where they sow their seed? Take your pick. Either men should have options that are equal to that of women or women should have responsibilty equal to that of men. This sounds eerily like those fathers who found out years after the birth of their children that they weren't their kids yet were forced to continue to support them because that is what the children were accustomed to, not that it was necessary. But **that** is fraud! It is not at all the same thing. It doesn't seem much different to me. I was supposed to be a father to my sons however when my last one was 2, I was suddenly nothing but a stranger that had the responsibility to pay his mother. And that was very, very wrong. THAT is what needs to be changed in the system. Neither gender should get to behave that way!! We need balance and fairness. Exactly!!!!!! I could not legally do anything other than "visit" him 4 days a month. I had no authority over his environment, religion, association with other children, vacations, dress, medical exams, etc. because the divorce and custody "agreement" gave her "complete custody and control" while giving me a set and unwavering amount of money to pay her to do with as she wished. It was all very typical. Where was MY decision to be a father? That was wrong. That is what needs to be faought against and changed. Agreed but it's all tied together. Perhaps it would be best to limit a man's choices to the same time limit as the mother but currently he has none and it is unlikely he will ever get any. I choose to be more optimistic on the prospect. I know that I talk to a lot of parents in my work, and I am seeing a change in attitudes toward fathers. I am hoping it is a good omen of things to come. I hope you're right. Me, too, Phil. This year 90% of my students are from never-divorced, 2-parent homes. The highest percentage I've had in years. That is strikingly odd when so many children are from divorced or never-married families. Yes, it is the best year yet for intact homes. A decade ago it fell at around 50% I do think the tide is changing. Too bad it is only for such a small section of society. The rest of the country apparently hasn't changed. Phil #3 The problem is that responsibility should equal choice but in reproductive matters, it doesn't. If women are to have unilateral choice, they also should also accept unilateral responsibility to match that choice. If men are to be at all responsible, they should be given choice equal to that responsibility. But we are talking about older children that the parents have been raising together. Do you really feel that a father should have the legal right to abandon his children at any time with no legal responsibility toward them, Phil? I think his responsibilty should be equal to his legal options. There I agree with you. 50/50 joint custody should be the default. Each parent should pay for their own 50% of the time. If one parent chooses to have the child less than 50% of the time, he/she should pay the other parent suppot to cover the extra time that parent has the child. If a parent decides to move and have the child 100% of the time, that parent should pay for 100% of the expenses. It's all about holding people responsible for their own choices! Other than I don't think any parent should be allowed to take the children from the area of the other without their express permission, I agree. The only way to get things to change is to keep fighting for change. I've been fighting for over 3 decades and it only continues to worsen. I don't even have a dog in this fight any more but I keep writing, talking and reading about it. I don't have a dog in the fight any more, either (although that could change if the young lady decides to go back to school--then there would be 2 more years). But I won't stop fighting, and taking , and sharing, and trying to open eyes to what is happening. |
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TN - Child support termination bill attacked
-- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] .. .. "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] . . "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... "teachrmama" wrote in message ... snip You, Chris, wish to put into place a system as evil as the one you hate so passionately. You are no better than the people you despise. Describe such evil system, and then explain WHY it's evil. Look at the system you hate so much, replace those who cater to women with those who cater to men and--voila--there is the system you espouse. In your WILDEST dreams! Never have I suggested that men rip-off women, NEVER! Now prove me wrong. You want to put into place a system that does not even begin to consider the *real importance* of a father in a child's life, and have men be roaming tomcats that can come and go as their lust or pleasure dictrates, with no responsibilities whatsoever. That is as eveil as the system that says men are only worth their wallets, and have no other value in a child's life. Straw man. Again, PROVE that I have ever suggested that men rip-off women; PROVE IT! Constantly, Chris. All the time. Ok, so I do it constantly and "all the time"; but PROVE it! Just exactly what do you think is going to happen if you manage to put into place your system of holding men totally blameless for every birth? Do you think that there will be fewer births? Do you think that men will say "Oh, well, if I'm not going to be held responsible for the children my sperm help create, I guess I won't have sex any more." What do you think will be the end result of your ideas regarding no responsibility for fathers? That depends on what women, who choose an act that results in their pregnancy, decide to do. Just as it is now. |
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TN - Child support termination bill attacked
-- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] .. .. "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message ... "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Phil" wrote in message m... snip for length The family and fatherhood has been virtually eliminated by modern feminism. It's been dead for a couple of decades now since the advent of abortion-as-birth-control and "no-fault divorce" added to the anti-male court decisions and tactics. The first thing that will be needed to fight for them is to fight for the equalization of rights AND responsibilities of both parties. As long as abortion on demand is available to women without any consideration to the father and as long as "no-fault divorce" exists coupled to the anti-male legal procedures available to women of questionable moral standards, nothing can change for the better. Absolutely. But do you eally believe that the judges that sit in family court are gong to listen and/or uphold the "rights/responsibilities" argumant, and permit men to walk away from any responsibility just because they do not have any rights? I cannot see that happening. I can, however, see small inroads in the demand for 50/50 custody. It is going to be a long and bloody battle. Well guess what, the only way that is going to happen is if blood is shed literally. Apparently, you are oblivious to the fact that we are dealing with insane people who will defend their agenda at all costs. ================================ As you do yours, Chris. Oh? And just what is this agenda that I am willing to die for? If you really feel that blood must be shed to right this wrong, why haven't you done so? Or is it just words with you, and you are hoping that others will take the actions that you see as inevitable, and bear the brunt of the repercussions. ================================= We need to fight for rights for men in several areas. But we also need to fight for MORE RESPONSILILITY for the women who, at this point in time, are living off of men, and have absolutely no means or desrie to support themselves and their children. Holding women accountable would be a MAJOR step!! Add to that, even if he wants to be a father, supports the mother AND the children for years, he can be kicked out of the family without much trouble and still be held responsible for paying the mother a large percentage of his income. Which is just as wrong as giving him the legal right to just walk away because he does not have a uterus. What do you say about the men in families who adopted children? Shall they be held to supporting thier children, even though they did not bear those children themselves? Good point, TM. The main difference is that he had to be proactive in making the step to become a legal parent and could have chosen NOT to be a parent at any time up until actually signing the document legalizing his responsibility. In other words, he had a clear and definite legal choice and had to take actual steps to become a parent. A married man is the father and has no options other than to be celebate, which is not likely to be a long or happy marriage. My husband and I decided together to bring our children into the world. Untrue. ======================== Only in your bitter little world, Chris. And in the LEGAL world as well. =================== He is not a "victim." We both love our children and want the best for them. One is 13.5, and the other is truning 15 on Weds. How can you say that his choice/responsibility is any less than that of an adoptive father? That is where my understanding breaks down. I don't understand how you interpret his parenthood as being *forced* when he loves and wanted our girls just as much as I did. It is like the case of a cop stopping a vehicle being driven by a drunk driver. Even though the passenger may have wanted the drunk driver to drive, is the passenger at all responsible? The current situation is like putting the passenger in jail and allowing the driver to just walk away. So you are saying women should be likened to drunks and men likened to passengers? When it comes to making the choice whether or not she will bear a child, men are just along for the ride. And that's the LAW! ===================== When it comes to the right to bring a pregnancy to birth, that is true. I rest my case. But after the post-comception rights comes the period of raising the child. The issues now change from post-conception issues to custody issues. Untrue. It's still a post-conception issue. A completely different scenario requiring a completely different solution. THAT's the LAW. ============================================ The idea that men are responsible while handing all the options to women and allowing them to choose their level of responsibility, if any at all, is completely unpalatable. Of course it is. But telling men that they have nos responsibility whatsoever for children is **NOT** going to fix that, is it? Yes, it puts the responsiblility directly on the only one capable of making the decision. Unilateral rights deserve unilateral responsibility in regard to those rights. Do you really think you could ever bring that into law? If family courts fight to give women the majority of the options now, what makes you think you could **ever** get things changed to women being the ones being screwed by the law and men having all the choices? NOWHERE does he ever suggest that! ============================= Sure you do, Chris. All the time. You want ot remove any vestige of responsibility for children from men. A system fully as evil as the one in place today. 1. I was referring to the other poster, not myself. 2. NEVER have I claimed that I want women to get screwed by the law and let men have all the choices. 3.NEVER have I claimed that I want to remove responsibility for children from men. ======================================== The much better choice would be to equalize the options of both. If women can have an abortion for any or no reason, a father should have the same ability in the same time period to make the same decision to abort his responsibility toward a child he doesn't want. Then make both parents truly equal (in responsibility and authority) of any born children. This would also require some new laws such as a mother that in any way hides the birth of a child from the father should not be able to sue for child support, etc. You know that I totally agree with that! Equal rights and responsibilities. ........ except when it comes to the right to choose parenthood. ========================= On the contrary, Chris, I have always maintained that men need a safe-haven law equitable to the one in place for women. "Parenthood" as in having offspring. =========================== Default 50/50 custody. Fatherhood and Motherhood being equally important in the lives of children. That, of course, is the root of the disagreement, Chris. I see a father as a father--not just some individual providing for some woman's children until he is tired of doing so. You seem to take the opposite stand. For what it's worth, he is both a father AND "some individual". And guess what, he IS providing for some woman's child. And guess what else, according to their rules, he can walk at any time. It simply follows. chuckle He is raising his own children as well, Chris. Of course, for individuals just looking for ways to escape responsibility, that doesn't count, does it? THE problem here is that she has choice, he has responsibility. She can escape the responsibility of her choices by abortion or even after birth by legal abandonment neither choice is available to him. He has no choices beyond conception yet is responsible but only if SHE decides he is and to the extent she allows/demands. And once the time period for legal abandonment is past, and they are raising the children together, that doesn't matter any more. You cannot hark back to the "birth choice" forever. Why not? If, like Chris said, he generously made your house payment for 12 years and suddenly stopped he would have no legal responsibility to continue. A child and a house are 2 different things, Phil. Yet the principle is the same. Not at all. My husband and I chose to have our children. **Both** of us made the choice. No, you "both" didn't. He may have been in favor of it, begged, pleaded or even paid you to have a child but legally the choice is yours and yours alone. Not at all true, Phil. What legal rights do you think he had that you could not legally subvert? But I **didn't**!!! Doesn't personal integrity enter in at all?? Why don't you answer his question? I thought it was straightforward. ======================= That **is** the answer, Chris! People are defined by their choices. I **did not** subvert his choices--we both chose to have our children, and we are raising them together. Problem is, you don't recognize it as an answer because it does not fit into your bitter little world. "Bitter little world" or not, I don't recognize it as an answer because it ISN'T an answer. He didn't request a definition; he CLEARLY asked for a legal right (to make you bear a child) held by your husband that you could not legally thwart. =========================== He and I agreed. We BOTH made the commitment! And continue to do so each and every day. Just because the law says I could do otherwise does not mean that I would disgrace myself in such a way. And there are many of us who feel the exact same way! I even know quite a number of divorced couples who would not **dream** of subjugating their children to the idiocy of fighting over who is the most important parent. Honor still means something to most people. We just happen to be caust up in a system that is run by slimeballs, and it is easy to forget that most people would be shocked if they ever really knew what is going onm and paid for by their hard-earned tax dollars. The only way this could be true is if his desire to produce and have a child was legally binding on you in any form or fashion OR he had the ability to deny responsibility for the child. But, again, you are just looking at the slimey system--not at the honor and dignity that are the biggest part of our commitment to each other and our children. There are many, many disgraceful things that we choose not to be part of. Just because they are available does not mean that we should be held responsible for what "might be done." The above is like saying pay no attention to a system that allows men to rape women because some will choose to not be a part of it. ========================= No, Chris, it's not. I have never said that the system should be ignored. "...you are just looking at the slimey system--not at the honor...". I might add: Of COURSE he's just looking at the system, because it's the system that's the problem. I went to the doctor for a breathing problem the other day. You think they discussed my feet? I have espoused specific solutions that need to be fought for. I am saying that you cannot hold every individual everywhere responsible for acts that the **might commit.** Do you think you should be arrested because you **might commit** murder? Or do you think you should only be held responsible if you *do* commit murder? Not worth answering. ========================= YOU had unilateral choices in reproduction. He had ONLY the rights you allowed him to have. WE had and have a commitment to each other and to our children. That is far more important than the idiot laws that produce possibilities that we would never consider. TOTALLY irrelevant to someone being attacked by such laws. ================== And that in no way reflects on our commitment to each other and our children, Chris. WE chose to have chldren and WE are raising them TOGETHER. Like I said, totally irrelevant to the one being attacked AND the topic at hand. Also, impossible for "we" to have (choose to bear) children. =============================== Why would his choice to have and raise these children be seen as any different from my choice to do so. Because the way the courts are, he has no choices, only the responsiblilty you choose for him. Virtually all divorces with children result in the custody the mother chooses along with a promise of a monthly paycheck. You may pretend to give him equal responsibility, even sincerely believe you are equal parents but legally, you are not and never will be. People are what they choose to be, Phil. You can say all you want that I am "pretending" to give him rights to OUR children, but you are WRONG. You are far too jaded, and need to take a step back and realize that there are still decent, caring people in this world. It doesn't matter how decent and caring a man is, he simply does not have any choices in reproduction, (except to remain celebate and even that doesn't always work thanks to the courts). Regardless the fact that you regard this choice as a joint decision, 100% of the legal rights remain yours and yours alone even if you CHOSE not to enforce them. It is sad that you consider "legal rights" to be more important than personal choice. I just do not see it that way. When it comes to the people with the bigger guns, legal rights are the ONLY rights that count. ========================= That seems to be the way it is in yourcase, Chris. But it is not so for everyone. ===================================== There ARE many, many good and honorable people out there who will **never** avail themselves of the legal rights you speak of, but you seem to be tarring all women with the same brush. He's done no such thing. He is only pointing out how the courts are tarring fathers. Yes, I could have prevented the children from being born--but I didn't. But the choice was yours and yours alone. It doesn't matter WHICH choice you made, the fact remains that the only one with actual choice was YOU. NO, Phil, the choice was OURS, and we made it together. No, that's where you're wrong. You gave his input meaning. His 'choice' to have a child was wholly dependent on you, either way. So? Why is this so important to you? May not be important to him, but it is a legal fact that you dispute. ================ No, Chris, I don't. When did you change your mind? I just say that there is more to life than the legal that you seem so intent on raising to godhood. The legal often belongs in the toilet! So much for your "godhood". Our choices were not based on legal, but on our commitment to each other. ========================= Do you really think that all women are so shallow that they have their "legal rights" uppermost in their minds, and are just waiting for an opportunity to harm their husbands? He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would say the answer is no. Since this is a straw man, your question is irrelevant anyway. You were under no legal obligation to produce a child regardless how badly he wanted one and he would be responsible for any child he produced that he didn't want. That you allowed his opinion to have the meaning you ascribed to it was still not legally binding in any manner. There you are with the "legal" again. I don't live my life with that as my primary focus. Of course not because you don't have such legal burden. Never had it, don't have it now, and NEVER will have it. Perhaps if you did, your tune would be different. I see you go ballistic even at the thought of removing the unfair burden on fathers and placing back on mothers where it RIGHTFULLY belongs! And that's just making things fair. Now imagine going one step further and making them just as unfair to mothers as they have been to fathers. You would probably go through the roof! ======================== Hahahahahaha! What a jerk, Chris!! Our lives were turned upside down by the legal system you claim has not harmed me. Do you think I started posting on this group just for the fun of it. I **HAVE** been harmed by the system. My children **HAVE** been harmed by the system. And not because of any choices that **I** made! For what it's worth, this funny "jerk" was referring to the legal burden placed on a man, because he is a father, of being forced to pay his money to a woman for her sole choice to bear his biological child. YOU had that burden? =========================================== |
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