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Info Junkie wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2004 01:36:33 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote: Info Junkie wrote: On Sun, 23 May 2004 11:54:41 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: "snip" We do not have time machines, and we are not responsible for the deed of people who lived many years before we were born. -------------------- Not unless we still have benefit of the wealth they stole through slavery, AND collectively, we DO!!!! That amounts to the possesion of lost or stolen property, and ANY disparity of wealth that we have allowed to afflict new generations of blacks, because of our ongoing greed in NOT returning our ill-gotten gain, this is ALSO our debt!! This is why we owe blacks complete restoration to the wealth and position, power, and education they would have had they been white!! Because Color WAS the distinguishing feature that identified them as slaves for hundreds of years, deprived them of family, tribe, and culture, and left them in this condition. Oh my. Where should such monies for "reparations" (which is what you're speaking of) come from: --------------------------------- Confiscated wealthy from all the wealthy. So you wish the government to take monies from the wealthy (whatever "wealthy" means) to give to blacks, not based on law, but because you believe it o be "right". Understood. ----------------------------- No. You don't. 1. Would you include receiving monies(from) those that originally captured and (then) sold them into slavery? -------------------------- Impossible, and irrelevant. 2. What of those whose families owned no slaves, and were in fact against slavery? Would you "pick their pocket" for "reparations" as well? ------------------------------ Those who are wealthy should be relieved of it. 3. What, do we "owe blacks" that are descedants of black slave owners Mr Walz? Or are you claiming only white people were slave owners in this country. --------------------------------- Same as we owe EVERYONE. A decent education, job, home. For that matter we also owe each child born into our society their own residence, free and clear, simply because 500 generations of the labor of our collective ancestors slaving for the rich have already earned them that inheritance, and by right of equality they each should already own and control their fair share of the entire earth!! Where do you get "500 generations"? ------------------------------------ It doesn't matter, moron, it's not specific, nor does it have to be. You make the assertion, you provide the evidence. -------------------------------- It was an offhand number that need not be accurate, in fact it can be longer or shorter with no change in the certain truth of my assertion. It depends on what you call a generation, if it is 20 years, fine, and if as some say, it is 30 years, then still, fine. Since we have a body of common ancestry that is distanced from the present by between 10,000 and 100,000 years, it is unimportant. And in any case, everyone *IS* related to everyone else. Blacks are the only ones who can help themselves. ------------------ That doesn't happen, there is no "Free Will", we are products of our experience, and nothing else, and we cannot change what circumstances have made us think and what we do because of it. We can only wait for new circumstances and experiences, or others to affect our thinking. This may be true for animals Mr Walz, ------------------------------- Nope, it's true for ALL beings in the world, your trying to speak of self-awareness, not realizing that self-awareness has nothing whatsoever to do with "Free Will", you obviously need some college philosophy coursework. One that believes as you do also knows there are opposing theories that dispute your belief. ------------------------------------------ Wrong ones, yes, and held for ulterior illegitimate motives of greed and power. but many times people change their ways because of their experiences...some to improve themselves, some to enact reverge, some to wallow in self-pity. --------------------------- Yes, they change because of experiences, ansd without those important lucky, formative experiences, they do NOT!! In other words, they do NOT have "Free Will". Now by asserting these people have obtained new experiences, they are "lucky". Doesn't sound very "scientific", at least to use as any sort of "proof" of your belief over opposing theories. ------------------------------------ What would you call a happy winner of a random chance award? That's purely scientific. We do what we do because of who we are, which is produced by our life experiences, in the precise order they occur, and our chemical reaction to them which is entirely determined by cause and effect. There is ONLY ONE outcome for events at a specic place and time, and ONLY one finally happens, regardless of how many other universes were also produced which did NOT become this thread's future! If there was no such thing as "free will" Mr Walz, all individual outcomes would be predictible for each of us. throughout history. ------------------------------- No, they would merely be unary, ONLY one final outcome, which is true. Yet based on your beleief, the "ONLY one final outcome" would be the same for all individuals, and be at the least easily predicatible. ------------------------------------- All individuals are not the same, nor the place and time nor the order of their life experiences, nor their experiences themselves the same, and prediction presumes advanced enough science or the possible impossibility of prediction, which still does NOT prevent there being ONLY ONE UNARY OUTCOME FOR EVENTS IN ANY LIFE AT ANY PLACE AND TIME! Thus all outcomes are Deterministic. The notion that they must be predictable relies upon your ability to fathom the totality of the science of causation, which neither you nor other lower animals have. The only thing that may now be predictible in your posts, is that you've begun down the path of ad hominem. -------------------------------- No. I don't have the ability to predict all causation either. By "you" I meant the general "you" here. I may suggest since you believe you fully understand the aetiology of human nature, you publish your works and disprove those with far more knowledge in this field than you or I, wrt your belief on "free will". ------------------------------ It's no mere "belief", it is inarguable truth based on logic. Things cannot be successfully argued to operate otherwise. If we had "Free WIll" we could decide apart from any and all causes, to think differently than we had, in the manner we'd prefer, and we'd think we were somewhere else than we are, and we'd be there, because we would be able to firmly retain belief in that in spite of all of the conflicting and confounding evidence to the contrary occuring to our senses, and we would be quite schizophrenic and lost in a fantasy world. That IS what such a power entails, and it makes coherent living of a lifetime impossible. It can be argued that those who do so are lives than go out of existence out the sides of reality leaving only the rest of us who cannot, to exist coherently, moment to moment, trapped in our life birth to death. We will never know of those others' existence, if they can be said to have one without a single certain life that they cannot escape, in fact it can be maintained that such an entity would NOT be merely ONE entity by MANY or even ANY entity! This is why we cannot have any such thing as "Free Will", we would immediately CEASE TO EXIST! Actual "Free Will" would make any kind of Life altogether IMPOSSIBLE! Everyone is responsible by his past choices or decisions for his present condition in life. --------------------- Nope, a hundred TIMES more decisions by OTHERS produce our mind in our lives than those we even CALL our own, and our own and also merely the result of cause and effect outside of us. Saying we're responsible only says that we are who suffers, it does NOT make us able to change ourselves on whim, without reasons that would compel us beyond our control. How unfortunate all of your decisions (which you believe are not your own apparently) ---------------------- I cannot control what I am, and obviously neither can you, or someone so pitifully unable to argue as YOU are would OTHERWISE do far better! While you may not be able to control WHO you are, only you may control HOW you implement your beliefs. ------------------ Meaningless. What sort of thing is that, "style"?? What is NOT my core belief that is what I believe? Nothing! No, all is belief, and it is not under our control. Rather it IS what controls us, and how we ARE controlled. While there are consequences for ones actions, implementation of ones own beliefs that determine the extent of your "free will". To suggest you can not is not only foolish, but self-defeating. -------------------------- You're arguing for some undetectable epiphenomenal "you can't and yet you can" sort of "Free Will", which is nonsense born only of verbal assembly and not a logical assertion. Just because you can verbalize something doesn't mean it must be so!! You think that you possess the "feeling" of "running your own mind", but that is only an idea that was taught you, it is not shown, it is a belief without evidence. It is what the RC Church taught people so they could hold them criminally responsible for what they THINK, when that is balderdash on its face to imagine that someone actually controls what they THINK! All that sort of thing is done for is for terror purposes, not because someone actually controls what they think! Can terror control people, sure, partially, falsely, and unsuccessfully, but it can seem to work for a time, till they slit your throat. But terror does not of itself change thoughts in minds permanently. The assault is remembered, and forms a bio-neurologic source of rebellion and secret plotting of revenge. will dictate all of the decisions your children will make when they are grown, and the children beyond them. ---------------------- No, children are affected not only by MY input, but by a hundred times MORE uncontrolled experiences in their life in the world. Children may be "effected" by their parents input, but it does not determine HOW they would implement their actions based on your beliefs, ------------- You mean "affected", yes. and in the manner you would implement your actions based on your beliefs, nor are their actions predictible. --------------- They get more predictable the more they are moral, because moral treatment of others earns their love, which ensures the desire to become cooperative and retain the relationship closely and amiably. If their experiences are "uncontrolled", they may implement their actions far differently than others would, and no "ability to fathom the totality of the science of causation" wrt predictiblity will change that. --------------------------------- Even if things in children's lives are uncontrolled, if you have behaved morally toward them they will appreciate it, and separate you from the group of effects that they resent and which they plot to damage, change, or destroy. How sad for you and yours, as there have been many, many others that have decided (free will) not to share your state of self-pity. ------------------------ No, that is merely their mistaken belief that they are unable to change because they have no "Free WIll", they were brainwashed with such crap and have never had to examine it logically. Whose "mistaken belief"? If you believe neither your parents nor yourself had "free will", then both you and your parents (and subsequently your children) were also "brainwashed", ergo you'd have no ability to "examine" what was or was not "crap" nor think "logically". ----------------------------- No, you're getting confused. Life experience does not brainwash us. It teaches us what we must learn and deal with, and how. Brainwashing is when someone as a separate agency tries to bully us into phony edicts of thought and behavior that actually contradict our other much more massively persuasive life experience. We always know inside when we have been forced to lie by threat, to ourselves and to others, though under said threat of torture we may act and forget it is just a phony play we are pretending, for a time. Your condition or the circumstances that you are living in today are a direct result of your decisions in the past. You are also responsible for your future. Not anyone else. Just you. Holger ---------------------- Sorry, we are NOT islands, divisible from the rest, we are literally produced and created by the actions of others, and everything we are came from outside us and beyond our control. We owe each other support and fairness!! We are a group species, a group cultural mind. If this were true Mr Walz, one would be a robot or a domesticated and herded animal. --------------------------- No, that is not what a robot or a cow is, those are mechanical or organic devices that have no self-awareness, but as I have told you AND SHOWED you with a simple thought-experiment, self-awareness has nothing whatsoever to do with "Free WIll". Self-awareness does NOT include some magical ability to change what you think about your existence, even though self-awaress does think ABOUT its existence and models its existence internally in its mind as a means of perceiving the past! Pyscho-babble. --------------------- You're a liar, a coward, a nincompoop who cannot reason logically. Your blurting is cowardly and defensive because you are unable to respond logically. If we could change what we thought we would go totally insane almost immediately because we would decide to think we were elsewhere in some life and location that we preferred far better and we would leave this reality and perhaps leave behind a catatonic body abandoned by any person in touch with reality. We would mentally mastrubate our mind into insanity and total loss of reality if given whimsical control of what we believe!! That's the prime reason we CANNOT HAVE "Free Will", because it would make Reality itself and individual coherent lives IMPOSSIBLE!!! More Pyscho-babble. If one does not learn Mr Walz, one remains a child. How one implements what has been learned determines ones future. ------------- But how one implements anything comes from our life experience and beliefs that come directly from them. You are pretending that you can separate what is experienced from how it affects beliefs, and hence acts, and you CANNOT! Those separations are verbal ONLY, and ONLY as a feature of sentence structure, they are NOT real, except as speech fragments. OTOH, some have learned to change not only what they've learned previously may be incorrect, but have made appropriate changes in how they implement their new experieces, including how they treat others...none of which were predictible. ------------------------- Nonsense, they are as predictable as anything, FOR YOU JUST DID SO!! This means they are caused by external experiences and how they affect our internal workings entirely beyond our control! If this were not so, then no transformative experiences would be possible! And experience means EITHER external OR INTERNAL, because we can be JUST as taken somewhere we might not have tread by our own musings and pouring over old experiences as by new ones! This is NOT any form of "self-control", this is merely dynamic logic at work, the action of delay and feedback in the Deterministic mechanism of our chemical physical mind!! We do not control, we are controlled by everything else!! While you may believe it is true for you Mr Walz, ------------------------ Don't be a disingenuous ****, you dummy, you know full well that I hold it to be true of everyone forever and always!! AND YOU KNOW THAT I CAN PROVE IT TO YOU AND YOU DON'T WISH TO ADMIT IT!!! (And your ad hominem becomes more shrill - as predicted above) --------------------------- You asserted that I merely BELIEVE it, or "for me alone" and that was an insulting ad hominem, however smug and round about, and why I lashed out at you. If you don't desire to be assailed, desist from such gambits! Admit "what" Mr Walz? Areyou claiming you can not learn anymore than you already have ("I hold it to be true of everyone forever and always!!")...or just that you refuse to admit that what you've have learned to date may be, at least in part, incorrect? That you believe there is no "free will" Mr Walz, may be true for you, but is a theory that is disputed even among professionals. ------------------------------------- Not competent ones. Those who reject it are clearly only doing so because of their inability to reason and their fear of it as to what it means, having been raised in a punitive blaming society that holds people responsible for their very thoughts, which they cannot help. The arguments of such inferiors are so specious that it is barely believable that a someone pretending to authority could dare even to publish them and reveal their shallow grasp of the question. It is only because they are unaware how stupid they look that they can dare do so at all. This evidences that others do indeed grasp the subject far better, even if their inferiors are unaware of this. The most well-accepted school of thought in QM is the MWI or many worlds interpetation. It solves so many problems compared to all other models that it simply cannot be ignored, and because of the nature of its claims, cannot even BE refuted, but like Determinism, it frightens the **** out of Fundy Xtians with their limited and shame-based world-view, even if they CALL themselves physicists! The rest of physics and physicists laughs at them both in front of and behind their backs, because they can never win an argument. "Environment is responsible for over half of the variance in the trait. Note that ‘environment’ includes not only the circumstances of a person’s upbringing, this is just its most obvious and important aspect, ‘environment’ also includes everything that is not inheritable, all the non-genetic factors that might be relevant, from experimental error to free will. " ------------------------------ Wrong! The half-and-half doctrine is between nurture and nature. And the other "half" of cause is what? Genomic?? In other words, YET MORE input into who you are and how you behave that you cannot control or prevent!! Now this half and half baloney is so much pure crap in biology, it is merely a nod to each other between psychology and biology, dividing "turf" as it were. Nobody actually knows what does exactly what, and they'd be better off admitting it till they do! (http://www.bioethics.net/genetics/ge...&articleID=759) If no such thing a "free will" exists Mr Walz, why is such a phrase considered by the American Journal of Bioethics as a "trait", even part of ones "environment"? Are you claiming they are wrong and only you are correct? --------------------------------- The presence of non-science and even anti-science in the bordeline sciences is always good for a laugh. When writing in such fields, most of what people write is mere opinion, they do not always write science. Don't be decieved. In these much more complex human fields in which we have the least grasp of how things occur of all fields, some fanciful guesswork seems unavoidable, even if it may later stymie the real science from progressing. It is better to speak and lay one's assumptions on the table for future review, than to leave them unsaid. Thus, people often write their unjustified belief systems into their supposedly "scientific" efforts. Examples of this are so numerous! What is meant BY "Free Will" in different circumstances does of course differ. Sometimes it means no more than self-awareness, sometimes it means no more than the ability to learn from experience, even in lower animals where the mechanism doesn't even seem to be an aware process. You have to examine them to know when it is being mis-used in a shoddy and free-form manner than ignores and denies the quite proper claim of Philosophy alone to be its definer. You were brainwashed with Rightist moronic "individuality" and "self-reliance", so that you could justify Rightist abuses of those less fortunate in life, because you don't even grasping that those are nothing but fatuous MYTHS! What is clear Mr Walz, is what you believe far exceeds what you know Mr Walz, My upbringing ("brainwashed" to you) was quite center to left-of-center...I "grew up" and learned the world is not so (pardon the pun) "black and white". --------------------------------------- You fancy yourself as a Leftist, but from where I sit you are to the Right because you are unaware of why you believe the little things that you do that make you effectively a Rightist. The dogma you assert is inherently Rightist, it supports no other direction of belief, but you don't know that yet, apparently. Much of what I was taught was similar to the baloney you are spewing Mr Walz. ------------------------------------------ And which you weren't bright enough to understand, obviously. If you were taught it, you should use it. This was quite evident when you snipped my questions to you wrt "reparations" Mr Walz, as you did not wish to deal with them as facts not "myths". Instead, moving to fallacvies of distration rather than staying on-topic wrt "reparations". ---------------------------------- I don't distract, I attack. If you don't understand what I say ask questions. fortunately there are many that refuse to wallow in your type of self-pity and have raised themselves up from whatever position they originally started...regardless of race and without any need for "reparations". --------------------------- No, those who think they did were merely lucky, Hmmm. I thought it was based upon "upon your ability to fathom the totality of the science of causation'? ------------------------------------- You seem to believe that I asserted I had such a thing. I simply reminded you that YOU do not, which you onviously took personally and now fancy that *I* pretend to it, which I do not. and wish to take phony credit for it, and believe that either they did it all by themselves, which is nonsense to anyone acquainted with cause and effect in physics, and who doesn't try to separate it from real LIFE. Which has differing, and disputible theories., none of which are appllicable to reparations. --------------------- Everything is disputable to sufficiently ignorant stubborn and conniving people who are unwilling to reason logically. Such an assertion that everything is disputable might lead the fatuous to believe that there is no Truth. Hogwash. Truth can only BE determined by people WILLING AND CAPABLE of divining it by LOGIC! To all others, the Truth is NOT, in fact, "disputable", it is merely UNAVAILABLE to them because of their ignorance and willful intellectual misbehavior!! This allows them an excuse to keep their ill-gotten wealth and allows them to think they can justify their abuses of those less fortunate. So even those blacks that ae wealthy was accomplished by "ill-gotten" means and not talent, and should have their wealth "confiscated" beacuse they only use their wealth so "they can justify their abuses of those less fortunate"? ------------------- Absolutely. WHOEVER benefits by the degradation of another, is at fault, and must be penalized till they do NOT benefit inordinately over others. It's mostly the greedy self-indulgent excuses of the thief and bandit that motivates the Rightist to justify their unfairly gotten wealth by pretending that "Free Will" exists, when every logical argument trashes that Myth totally! If "every logical argument" shows there is no such thing as "free will" Mr Walz, --------------------------------- It can't. It is unable. Steve |
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