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#851
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Jasper PNL Mfg Co, LTD wrote:
"R. Steve Walz" wrote: Your posts consist merely of illogical cut-n-paste ad hominems. They prove you're nothing but a little coward. You do this because you're DESPERATELY terrified of taking me on in structured and reasoned argument. Is that why you snip the portions of posts... ----------- I snip off your lies, I'll be doing much more of that. While you embarrass yourself, since you're to STUPID to ever argue the ISSUES logically, you DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW!! Steve |
#852
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"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message ... Info Junkie wrote: On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 04:47:15 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote: Your posts consist merely of illogical cut-n-paste ad hominems. They prove you're nothing but a little coward. IOW Mr Walz, you now move onto ad hominem as you have been unable/incapable of backing your assertions with evidence ------------------------- None of that is either needed or possible in this venue, structural argument is vastly superior and prevents **** like you from muddying issues with ad hominem. PKB typical |
#853
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Jasper PNL Mfg Co, LTD wrote:
Info Junkie wrote: On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 04:47:15 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote: Your posts consist merely of illogical cut-n-paste ad hominems. They prove you're nothing but a little coward. IOW Mr Walz, you now move onto ad hominem as you have been unable/incapable of backing your assertions with evidence ------------------------- None of that is either needed or possible in this venue, structural argument is vastly superior and prevents **** like you from muddying issues with ad hominem. Stick to issues instead of persons or be **** upon!!!! and have been found to have lied multiple times. -------------------------- I don't lie, that is merely your delusion and posturing propaganda. It won't be allowed, and it won't work! Stick to issues, not persons, or be **** upon!!!! Bet you CAN'T!!!!! I BET you DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW!! What I've "proven" Mr Walz, is that you've lied multiples times, run away when challenged... --------------------- This post now truncated for your lying ad hominems and repetition. And without ever arguing issues from structure and logic. Stick to issues or be **** upon wherever you go!! Steve PKB typical |
#854
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"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message ... Holger Dansk wrote: On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:50:09 -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:32:43 -0700, "Circe" wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:33:07 -0700, "Circe" wrote: Um, are you suggesting that Greek was the first language to have vowels in it? I'm not suggesting it but saying that it was. Nonsense. It is *impossible* to speak without making vowel sounds. Period. Vowel sounds are a necessary requirement of human speech. And Greek is hardly the first language invented by humans, let alone the first language to be represented by writing. Are you suggesting that the Egyptians (as just one example), who were capable of representing names like Osiris and Amenhotep in hieroglyphs 2000 years before the Greek alphabet was invented, did not use vowel sounds in their languages or did not have words? Or that the Chinese, who have been writing their language down without interruption since 1200 BC (fully 400 years before Homer and the dissemination of the Greek alphabet) do not now and did not when they began writing use vowels when they spoke? All I can say is that you are *sadly* misinformed. Greek Alphabets Apart from using the characters of the Greek alphabets as notations in my maths and science classes, I don't know how to read Greek. (Sigh. This is a real tragic.) Nor am I a linguist genius, since English is the only language I know. English is the only language I can read and write. (Judging by the number of spelling and grammar errors I had, I haven't even fully mastered English.) However, I can give you a brief history on the Greek alphabets. Which is totally irrelevant. Language is primarily a spoken phenomenon. Alphabets are merely one way to write down a language to preserve it in readable form. Every language of the world before Greek had vowels. Most of them had NO way of being written, but they existed nonetheless. Some, the Semitic languages, had ways of being written without vowels, because if you know the language you can figure out the vowels, jst s ths sntnc s ndrstndbl t mst ppl wh knw nglsh. Some, like Chinese, used individual symbols for entire words, and thus displayed neither consonants nor vowels. But written Chinese notwithstanding, Chinese does have both consonants and vowels. God help you. You are so messed up mentally. Get straightened out quick. Life is too short. You will live it without even knowing what was real and what was not. It seems that it may have been caused by too much lying and being around people who do a lot. -------------------------- People like you. You just got told about your ignorance again, so you explode in insult instead of accepting your ignorance and trying to become educated. Steve In what way did I get told, and told what? The ancient Greek civilization put vowells in language. Of course, that means written language, Whathisname keeps talking about noises that people made with their mouths from the Neanderthal on up. He has many loose screws. Most animals make noises and I suppose he would say they are using vowells. That's laughable. Let's get real. We are talking about written vowells here. That's the only kind you can have when you are speaking about the first civilization to put vowells in language. We do not have CDs of people speaking thousands of years ago. By the way, I have wondered why and how the Greeks were so far ahead of all of the other civilizations in practically everything when they didn't have any previous civilizations to learn from. I think there is a possibility that they learned from the Sumerians, the most ancient of the civilizations, who may have had visitors from space (aliens) that they learned from. The Sumerians believed that the earth was round and that the planets (they said there are 12) revolved around the sun. Thats thousands of years before Galileo and other astronomers learned anything about it and before Columbus, in 1492 proved that the earth is round. How else could these ancient people figure out the solar system, etc. We just recently discovered that there are 10 planets instead of 9. Maybe there are 12. You mention my getting educated. Does that mean that you are black. Black people often stress and talk about education as if it's some kind of medal that people get. A degree is only a license to learn. They also talk about reading as if they just learned how to read. Holger |
#855
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Holger Dansk wrote:
"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message God help you. You are so messed up mentally. Get straightened out quick. Life is too short. You will live it without even knowing what was real and what was not. It seems that it may have been caused by too much lying and being around people who do a lot. -------------------------- People like you. You just got told about your ignorance again, so you explode in insult instead of accepting your ignorance and trying to become educated. Steve In what way did I get told, and told what? The ancient Greek civilization put vowells in language. Of course, that means written language, ---------------- One of many which did at about the same time. Other languages, like the Asian languages, used syllabic symbols that had always included their pronunciation of both. Yet other written scripts always had vowels. You're a nutcake if you think Greeks were either amazingly advanced or not a cultural backwater. Whathisname keeps talking about noises that people made with their mouths from the Neanderthal on up. He has many loose screws. Most animals make noises and I suppose he would say they are using vowells. That's laughable. Let's get real. We are talking about written vowells here. --------------- Written vowels began as diacritical marks around consonantal symbols. They were optional, as in early Greek and Hebrew. Later the need to spread language widely to different dialects made it necessary to spell the vowels out, to combat deviant pronunciations in dialects. Prior to that written language was a shorthand using only consonantal symbols. That's the only kind you can have when you are speaking about the first civilization to put vowells in language. ----------- Don't be stupid, all language has vowels, you can't even SPEAK consonants without vowels!! We do not have CDs of people speaking thousands of years ago. --------------------- No, we have treatises on speech written by those people who tell us how they spoke, in many cases. By the way, I have wondered why and how the Greeks were so far ahead of all of the other civilizations in practically everything when they didn't have any previous civilizations to learn from. ----------------------- You're nothing but a ****ing idiot. None of that is true. They were neither far ahead, nor deprived of prior sources of culture. I think there is a possibility that they learned from the Sumerians, the most ancient of the civilizations, who may have had visitors from space (aliens) that they learned from. ------------------- God, you're an insane ignorant idiot. The Sumerians believed that the earth was round and that the planets (they said there are 12) revolved around the sun. Thats thousands of years before Galileo and other astronomers learned anything about it and before Columbus, in 1492 proved that the earth is round. -------------------------- The Greeks and Egyptians both knew the world was round, as did other early societies. How else could these ancient people figure out the solar system, etc. We just recently discovered that there are 10 planets instead of 9. Maybe there are 12. ---------------------------- You're an idiot. You mention my getting educated. Does that mean that you are black. ----------------- What would that have to do with it???? Black people often stress and talk about education as if it's some kind of medal that people get. ------------------ As do little ****-headed retards like YOU do. No, I'm European. You're delusional! A degree is only a license to learn. ------------------- So get one, please!! You clearly don't even have your learner's permit yet! They also talk about reading as if they just learned how to read. Holger ------------------ You act like you know nearly nobody personally!! You're a low-grade moron! Steve |
#856
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"Holger Dansk" wrote:
Which is totally irrelevant. Language is primarily a spoken phenomenon. Alphabets are merely one way to write down a language to preserve it in readable form. Every language of the world before Greek had vowels. Most of them had NO way of being written, but they existed nonetheless. Some, the Semitic languages, had ways of being written without vowels, because if you know the language you can figure out the vowels, jst s ths sntnc s ndrstndbl t mst ppl wh knw nglsh. Some, like Chinese, used individual symbols for entire words, and thus displayed neither consonants nor vowels. But written Chinese notwithstanding, Chinese does have both consonants and vowels. God help you. You are so messed up mentally. Get straightened out quick. Life is too short. You will live it without even knowing what was real and what was not. It seems that it may have been caused by too much lying and being around people who do a lot. -------------------------- People like you. You just got told about your ignorance again, so you explode in insult instead of accepting your ignorance and trying to become educated. In what way did I get told, and told what? The ancient Greek civilization put vowells in language. No they did not. Of course, that means written language, Written language was originally just a means of recording spoken language. How precisely it is recorded, and how precisely it NEEDS to be recorded, depends on the language. Arabs do not need vowels in their written language in order to read it; nor do Hebrew speakers. Greek does, which is why they added vowels to their language. English uses the vowels of the Roman alphabet, but to properly represent English vowel sounds would require several more letters. Whathisname keeps talking about noises that people made with their mouths from the Neanderthal on up. I am talking about language, which is spoken language. He has many loose screws. Most animals make noises and I suppose he would say they are using vowells. Since they are not speaking a language, I don't think that the statement has meaning with regard to animals. That's laughable. Let's get real. We are talking about written vowells here. Which some languages need, and other languages do not. That's the only kind you can have when you are speaking about the first civilization to put vowells in language. That's because the statement is nonsensical. If you had said they were the first to put letters standing for vowels in their alphabet, that would have been correct. But alphabets are not language. We do not have CDs of people speaking thousands of years ago. So? We don't need them to know that they had vowels in their languages. By the way, I have wondered why and how the Greeks were so far ahead of all of the other civilizations in practically everything They weren't. They were "ahead" in a couple of things that have been much studied, but not necessarily "far ahead". when they didn't have any previous civilizations to learn from. They did. Indeed the Greeks weren't really just one civilization. Many of the discoveries were made by people in Egypt, Turkey, and Italy, all of which had been conquered by Alexander the Great, who was Macedonian and not Greek per se (Alexander was EDUCATED by Greeks). I think there is a possibility that they learned from the Sumerians, the most ancient of the civilizations, The Sumerians were NOT the most ancient of civilizations. Sumerian civilization emerged sometime around 4000BC to 3500 BC. Before them, in the same place, were other Mesopotamian cultures, including the Susa culture that may go back to 5000BC. Predynastic Egyptian civilization has been definitely dated back to 5000BC, with some indications of a prior civilization as far back as 7000BC. Anatolia (Turkey) has the Aslantepe Mound, the ruins of a city that existed from 5000BC to 712BC. The Greeks got the idea of an alphabet, and a lot of the letter forms from the Phoenicians. who may have had visitors from space (aliens) that they learned from. You've been reading fairy tales. From what follows, apparently Sitchin. The Sumerians believed that the earth was round and that the planets (they said there are 12) revolved around the sun. The Sumerians believed no such thing. http://www.forteantimes.com/articles...chintime.shtml The theory revolves around one Sumerian seal, VA 243, which Sitchin claims demonstrates the advanced astronomical knowledge passed on to the Sumerians by the extraterrestrial Anunnaki. In it can be seen what Sitchin claims to be our Sun, surrounded by 11 “planets”. The Sumerians considered the Sun and Moon to be planets (hence the “12th Planet” of the title), leaving one planet in our Solar System that is unaccounted for – Nibiru or Planet X. Michael Heiser identifies several problems with Sitchin’s interpretation of this seal: • From its inscription, it appears that the seal has nothing to do with astronomy. Instead it reads: “Dubsiga, Ili-illat, your/his servant”. • The symbol Sitchin takes to be the Sun does not correspond to any other Sun symbol in the hundreds of known Sumero-Mesopotamian documents, seals or artworks. In fact it is a common star, for which there was a clearly different symbol. The Sun is always either shown as a disc with four arms and wavy lines, or just wavy lines emanating from it. The symbol in VA 243 has only four arms, and no wavy lines, in common with other representations of stars. • No contemporary texts exist that suggest that the Sumerians or Mesopotamians knew of more than five planets: Mars, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn and Mercury. Thats thousands of years before Galileo and other astronomers learned anything about it and before Columbus, in 1492 proved that the earth is round. Columbus proved no such thing. You might claim that Magellan's expedition proved it by going all the way around it, but in reality it was proven independently by the Greeks. The earliest version of the modern solar system came from Aristarchus of Samos around 200BC. How else could these ancient people figure out the solar system, etc. They didn't. We just recently discovered that there are 10 planets instead of 9. 11 actually. But the 9th, 10th, and 11th aren't necessarily considered "planets" any more. They are more like planetoids, and there are thousands of those between Mars and Jupiter. You mention my getting educated. Does that mean that you are black. It means that you are ignorant. Black people often stress and talk about education as if it's some kind of medal that people get. Intelligent people talk about education as if it is something that continues all one's life. A degree is only a license to learn. You apparently had your license suspended a long time ago, racist. They also talk about reading as if they just learned how to read. Better than talking about alphabets as if they were language. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
#857
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"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message ... Holger Dansk wrote: "R. Steve Walz" wrote in message God help you. You are so messed up mentally. Get straightened out quick. Life is too short. You will live it without even knowing what was real and what was not. It seems that it may have been caused by too much lying and being around people who do a lot. -------------------------- People like you. You just got told about your ignorance again, so you explode in insult instead of accepting your ignorance and trying to become educated. Steve In what way did I get told, and told what? The ancient Greek civilization put vowells in language. Of course, that means written nguage, ---------------- One of many which did at about the same time. Other languages, like the Asian languages, used syllabic symbols that had always included their pronunciation of both. Yet other written scripts always had vowels. You're a nutcake if you think Greeks were either amazingly advanced or not a cultural backwater. Whathisname keeps talking about noises that people made with their mouths from the Neanderthal on up. He has many loose screws. Most animals make noises and I suppose he would say they are using vowells. That's laughable. Let's get real. We are talking about written vowells here. --------------- Written vowels began as diacritical marks around consonantal symbols. They were optional, as in early Greek and Hebrew. Later the need to spread language widely to different dialects made it necessary to spell the vowels out, to combat deviant pronunciations in dialects. Prior to that written language was a shorthand using only consonantal symbols. Look in any good encyclopedia or on any reliable web site and you will see that the Greeks were the first to put vowels in language. That's the only kind you can have when you are speaking about the first civilization to put vowells in language. ----------- Don't be stupid, all language has vowels, you can't even SPEAK consonants without vowels!! Again, we are not talking about all of the grunting and screeching and noise that people made. A dog barking or a cat that meows can sound like a vowell. We are talking about WRITTEN language. Please get that through your noggin. THE ALPHABET "Like the Arabs and the Jews, Ancient Egyptians did not have vowels. Then, they spelled out only the consonants of their language's words. To eliminate ambiguities, the scribes used classifiers, which would say whether a given consonantal cluster was representing a bird, a man, a building, etc. The Egyptian consonants were adopted by the Phoenicians, who were sailors and merchants, with little need for writing complex narratives or documents. All they wanted was a writing system good enough to keep their books. Besides this, their language had consonantal roots, that would yield the meaning even in the absence of vowels. Therefore, they eliminated the classifiers altogether. The Greeks spoke a language where vowels were part of the root. Without vowels, one could not figure out the meaning of a word. Therefore, they were forced to introduce symbols for the vowels and, in doing so, invented the modern alphabetic writing system." http://palaia.ufu.br/aesop/alpha.html Holger We do not have CDs of people speaking thousands of years ago. --------------------- No, we have treatises on speech written by those people who tell us how they spoke, in many cases. By the way, I have wondered why and how the Greeks were so far ahead of all of the other civilizations in practically everything when they didn't have any previous civilizations to learn from. ----------------------- You're nothing but a ****ing idiot. None of that is true. They were neither far ahead, nor deprived of prior sources of culture. I think there is a possibility that they learned from the Sumerians, the most ancient of the civilizations, who may have had visitors from space (aliens) that they learned from. ------------------- God, you're an insane ignorant idiot. The Sumerians believed that the earth was round and that the planets (they said there are 12) revolved around the sun. Thats thousands of years before Galileo and other astronomers learned anything about it and before Columbus, in 1492 proved that the earth is round. -------------------------- The Greeks and Egyptians both knew the world was round, as did other early societies. How else could these ancient people figure out the solar system, etc. We just recently discovered that there are 10 planets instead of 9. Maybe there are 12. ---------------------------- You're an idiot. You mention my getting educated. Does that mean that you are black. ----------------- What would that have to do with it???? Black people often stress and talk about education as if it's some kind of medal that people get. ------------------ As do little ****-headed retards like YOU do. No, I'm European. You're delusional! A degree is only a license to learn. ------------------- So get one, please!! You clearly don't even have your learner's permit yet! They also talk about reading as if they just learned how to read. Holger ------------------ You act like you know nearly nobody personally!! You're a low-grade moron! Steve |
#858
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"Bob LeChevalier" wrote in message ... Holger Dansk wrote: On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 02:29:45 -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 13:38:45 -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote: wrote: Reading and writing were invented by whites and Asians. Really? Got any names? Guess those people in Upper Egypt weren't reading and writing. South of the Sahara they were running around chasing wildebeest, etc. What do you think they were doing in Northern Europe in 3000 BC? Well, in about 2560 BC, north of the Sahara, (We were talking about Africa, not northern Europe.) You were talking about "whites and Asians". I want to know what you think all the rest of the whites and Asians were doing while the Copts (who were mixed race and possibly black, but were certainly NOT "Caucasian" or "Aryan" or "Indo-European" which are common alternative names for "whites") were doing their thing. You are saying that I said that the Copts were white? Where did I say that? They were definitely not the stinking, mindless, evil, do-nothings-for-thousands-of-years savages who were always south of the Sahara. (Often called sub saharan.) Holger lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
#859
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"Karl" wrote in message .. . Holger Dansk wrote: On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 10:41:44 -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 02:29:45 -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 13:38:45 -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote: wrote: Reading and writing were invented by whites and Asians. Really? Got any names? Guess those people in Upper Egypt weren't reading and writing. South of the Sahara they were running around chasing wildebeest, etc. What do you think they were doing in Northern Europe in 3000 BC? Well, in about 2560 BC, north of the Sahara, (We were talking about Africa, not northern Europe.) You were talking about "whites and Asians". I want to know what you think all the rest of the whites and Asians were doing while the Copts (who were mixed race and possibly black, but were certainly NOT "Caucasian" or "Aryan" or "Indo-European" which are common alternative names for "whites") were doing their thing. Well, they certainly were not playing with dung beetles and chasing wildebeest. You're right. Here in Northern Europe they were playing with stag beetles and running away from bears. Until the Romans brought civilisation, thousands of years later. Most of civilized things about Roman culture came from the Greeks after the Romans conquered Greece. The Romans were good at killing people and they were good plumbers. In public restrooms in Rome everyone used the same sponge on the end of a stick to wipe there ass. It was kept emersed in a container containing saline solution. Holger |
#860
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It seems like you just want to argue. The Greeks were maybe the first
civilization to add vowels to their alphabet. Their language was written with their alphabet. So what the hell is your problem? You just want to play around with semantics and argue about practically nothing. Try to remain rational. My dad once told me, "Very few if any economist are millionaires." In other words, they, evidently, are unable to separate the essential things from the unessential, or the important from the unimportant. If you ramble around talking about Shakespeare's spelling, etc., an all sorts of ramifications you will miss the point or the important thing or things. Stick with what you know---- Lojban :-) Holger "Circe" wrote in message news:UsJvc.38277$oi5.10973@fed1read07... Holger Dansk wrote: On 3 Jun 2004 11:12:35 -0500, (Herman Rubin) wrote: In article , Holger Dansk wrote: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:33:07 -0700, "Circe" wrote: Um, are you suggesting that Greek was the first language to have vowels in it? I'm not suggesting it but saying that it was. At most, you can claim that Greek was the first language to have an ALPHABETIC system of writing with all vowels being EXPLICIT. One could make a case for this, but at least the Indian alphabet independently introduced vowels, and I do not believe that the Persian alphabet of the Behistun Rock, which does have vowels, is based on the earlier Semitic one. At least Grotefend did not find that to be the case when he deciphered the inscription. snip quote which has no relevance to the subject at hand These knuckleheads keep talking about spoken language which began about 30,000 years ago. Blink Bob and I (and Herman) have referred to languages like Hebrew, Sanskrit, and Chinese. We have not remotely suggested that any of those languages is 30,000 years old. Bob and I *have* stated that vowel sounds are a component of all human languages and have therefore presumably been present in human language since its earliest development. There is *no* exstant human language that does not consist of both consonant and vowel sounds, whether it was ever committed to a native writing system by its speakers. It is highly unlikely that any human system of verbal communication could have been produced without the existence of vowel sounds given that no language exists now that does so. Whether or not the vowel sounds are represented in *writing* has nothing, therefore, to do with whether vowel sounds are present in language. (Hawaiian was never committed to a native writing system, for example, yet it clearly has plenty of vowel sounds in it!) I wonder if they even know what a vowel is? For their information, the modern English vowels are a, e, i, o, and u. Wrong again. You confuse the symbol with the symbolized. A vowel is a kind of sound, distinct from a consonantal sound; the letters you have written are merely symbols for representing those sounds. Moreover, in English, the alphabetic symbols for the vowels do not have a one-to-one correspondence with the *sounds* they can represent: a can be either an "ah" sound or an "ay" sound; e can be "eh" or "ee" or unpronounced, and so on. Oh, and you forgot "sometimes y". These are letters that are written, and they should have learned how to write some letters in the first grade. And we all learned to say them years before we learned to write them. Ergo, there is no relationship between *written* vowels and *spoken* ones. Ergo, you are full of ****. But then, we all knew that already. -- Be well, Barbara All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful. Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman |
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