What about circumcision and pain relief for baby

"CBI" wrote in message
om...
"Slave" wrote in message
. net...
Boys who have had it done seem to have a higher incidence of
penile cancer but a lower incidence of agressive/invasive penile
cancer. Uncirc'd boys have a higher incidence of UTI's and some say
STD's. In my opinion none of this is of a magnitude or certainty high
enough to support a medical recommendation for the procedure but I can
see a reasonable person disagreeing.

I can't. Look, removing a girl's breast tissue when it first starts to
develop would be *very* effective at preventing breast cancer--which is far
more prevalent and causes far more deaths than penile cancer ever will--but
I don't see anyone advocating that!

The bottom line is that the increased risk for these complications in
uncircumcised boys is very small and it is *far* smaller than the likelihood
of complications from the circumcision itself (which is 1 in 500, right?).
How in the WORLD can anyone continue to justify surgically alteration of a
normal part of an infant's anatomy when the actual surgery carries greater
risks than the benefits it supposedly confers? Sorry, but the medical
justifications for circumcision are simply so weak that they don't really
bear consideration.

Frankly, I'm stunned that elective male circumcision is still permitted in a
country which outlaws female circumcision outright despite the fact that
doing so abridges the freedom of religious practice of some communities in
direct contradiction of the First Amendment. This is one arena in which US
law definitely discriminates against males.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [a quarter to 2] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"Custom fabracation" -- Auto body shop sign

Daddy: You're up with the chickens this morning.
Aurora: No, I'm up with my dolls!

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

"Shena Delian O'Brien" wrote in message
news:mc1Cb.363683$275.1193024@attbi_s53...
Carol Ann wrote:
I personally would circumcise my son (if I had one) AND I would ask for
them
to lessen the pain during and after the procedure.

I find an uncircumcised penis quite unattractive.

Since you wouldn't be having sex with your son, why do you need to find
his penis attractive?

Point!
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [a quarter to 2] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"Custom fabracation" -- Auto body shop sign

Daddy: You're up with the chickens this morning.
Aurora: No, I'm up with my dolls!

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

"Carol Ann" wrote in message
ink.net...

I find an uncircumcised penis quite unattractive.

I find penises in general unattractive. I think they look, if you'll pardon
my borrowing a phrase from 'Red Dwarf', like 'the last chicken in the shop'.
However, since I've learned what the extra skin on an intact/unaltered penis
*does*, I've begun seeing circ'ed penises as...mutilated. I don't think
that's attractive.

And I still don't see what the appearance of one's genitals has to do with
anything. Girls' genitalia (well, that of an adult woman) isn't exactly a
thing of beauty, but we don't trim up our baby girls' labia to make them
prettier(*). Well, some cultures do, but in the US it's strictly against the
law. I don't understand why little boys don't deserve the same protection
little girls get.

--angela

(*) Labial surgery is available to adult women. However this is a decision
made by an informed adult, not made for her by her parents for any or no
reason.

T wrote:

The doc said they don't usually give the baby any anaesthetic. Is there
something I can buy over the counter and bring?


Find another doctor. Even the American Academy of
Pediatrics recommends analgesia. You can see their policy
statement at: http://www.aap.org/policy/re9850.html, which
reads in part:

"There is considerable evidence that newborns who are circumcised
without analgesia experience pain and physiologic stress. Neonatal
physiologic responses to circumcision pain include changes in heart
rate, blood pressure, oxygen saturation, and cortisol levels.36-39 One
report has noted that circumcised infants exhibit a stronger pain
response to subsequent routine immunization than do uncircumcised
infants.40 Several methods to provide analgesia for circumcision have
been evaluated."

The AAP, by the way, does not recommend routine neonatal
circumcision.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Two points about thinking an uncircumsized penis is 'unattractive'.

1) An uncircumsized penis can easily be trained to look like a circumsized
one by pulling back the foreskin regularly (on a child over 10). I know this
because I've got a penis that looks circumsized but isn't.
2) Would you find an uncircumsized vagina 'unattractive'?

- Tom


"Carol Ann" wrote in message
ink.net...
: I am having sons circumcision tomorrow. I had one other question.
: They do not use pain killer because of swelling, is there something that
the
: doc can use that will not swell. I heard of a cream that they can put
on
to
: minimize pain.
:
: Also, why is it best practice to NOT do circumcision. I figure since my
: first son is circ. I should have 2nd son also. I know they are doing
the
: circs now but taking less foreskin off.
:
: I am in US.
:
: Thanks again in advance

I personally would circumcise my son (if I had one) AND I would ask for
them
to lessen the pain during and after the procedure.

I find an uncircumcised penis quite unattractive.

~Carol Ann

Sorry, when I say your post, I was suspicious and googled your ID
I didn't find any postings in the misc.kids heirarchy, but I found
some rather rude posts in some alt.music.somethingorother. Based
on that I decided you had come over to start an argument on a
contraversial subject.

However, since then I have found several posts from you in m.k.b.
Based on our posts in m.k.b, you are apparently a new mother who
seems to be fairly new to childrearing.

So, it's a little late for this advice, but I would tell you
that there is no good medical reason for cirmumcision. It is an
unnecessary medical procedure with no proven benefit. It is also
quite painful to the baby. Based on that I would recommend against
it.

Finally, the reason they are reluctant to anesthetise for a circ is
that babies often have very bad reactions to anesthesia. I think
that is one of the worst complications of circ.

Larry

In misc.kids.pregnancy T wrote:
: no troll. I don't know why you would think that.

: "Larry McMahan" wrote in message
: ...
: Troll alert!
:
: In misc.kids.pregnancy T wrote:
: : I am having sons circumcision tomorrow. I had one other question.
: : They do not use pain killer because of swelling, is there something that
: the
: : doc can use that will not swell. I heard of a cream that they can put
: on to
: : minimize pain.
:
: : Also, why is it best practice to NOT do circumcision. I figure since my
: : first son is circ. I should have 2nd son also. I know they are doing
: the
: : circs now but taking less foreskin off.
:
: : I am in US.
:
: : Thanks again in advance
:
:

"toypup" wrote in message
news:ZU1Cb.506911$Tr4.1395696@attbi_s03...

"Carol Ann" wrote in message
ink.net...
I personally would circumcise my son (if I had one) AND I would ask for
them
to lessen the pain during and after the procedure.

I find an uncircumcised penis quite unattractive.

I don't really care much either way, but I think it's wrong to have your
child suffer the pain and possible complications of being c*rced because
*you* think it's unattractive. Would you also alter his ears if they
stuck
out too far, or his nose if it were crooked?

....well, you might. Sometimes kids *are* born with ears that stick way out
from their heads, crooked noses, cleft lips, etc. And such children do
requently undergo plastic surgery for these aberrations. But they're not
done casually, they *are* done with a general anaesthesia, they're done
after meeting with a plastic surgeon, after lengthy discussion of the
procedure....in short, they're treated as the body alterations they are.

My OB made no effort whatsoever to discuss the procedure with me, when I was
asked "If you have a son, do you want this done to him?" Perhaps this is
because she knows I've already educated myself (and in fact I educated her
on several things during the course of my pregnancy, and she was glad to
learn them - like about ultrasound measurement of a previous c/s scar to
assist in determinine risk of uterine rupture in a VBAC). But the fact is,
no effort whatsoever was made to discuss the procedure with me. Nor, I'm
sure, would my presence have been welcome during such a procedure, thus
giving the impression that it's inconsequential.

I've a feeling that MANY OBs do not discuss the procedure with parents, any
more than they discuss other "routine" things, like CFM, episiotomy, risks
of epidural anaesthesia. Parents don't know to ask, and the doctors,
hurried, don't offer. Thus many decisions are made in a vacuum, by people
who don't know any better.

We know that things like CFM and epidurals can have lifelong consequences
(in the form of increased likelihood of cesarean delivery, with increased
risks during future pregnancies and deliveries). Why is it so hard for
people to see that removing a big ol' chunk of skin that nature put there
for a reason, might have a lifelong consequence for the boy to whom it is
done?

--angela

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 07:28:27 GMT, "Slave"
wrote:

"First do no harm" is the doctors creedo. Removing an appendix would be an
emergency! Circumcisions are not an emergency merely a cosmetic
afterthought. It means exactly what is says, FIRST do no harm.

If you believe that all doctors follow that to the letter, I know of a
bridge I could sell you.

--
Daye
Momma to Jayan
"Boy" EDD 11 Jan 2004
See Jayan: http://jayan.topcities.com/

"Chotii" wrote in message
...

"toypup" wrote in message
news:ZU1Cb.506911$Tr4.1395696@attbi_s03...

"Carol Ann" wrote in message
ink.net...
I personally would circumcise my son (if I had one) AND I would ask
for
them
to lessen the pain during and after the procedure.

I find an uncircumcised penis quite unattractive.

I don't really care much either way, but I think it's wrong to have your
child suffer the pain and possible complications of being c*rced because
*you* think it's unattractive. Would you also alter his ears if they
stuck
out too far, or his nose if it were crooked?

...well, you might. Sometimes kids *are* born with ears that stick way out
from their heads, crooked noses, cleft lips, etc. And such children do
requently undergo plastic surgery for these aberrations. But they're not
done casually, they *are* done with a general anaesthesia, they're done
after meeting with a plastic surgeon, after lengthy discussion of the
procedure....in short, they're treated as the body alterations they are.

Well, I'm not talking about a gross deformity here. The question is, if
Carol Ann's child had an ear that stuck out just a bit or a nose that was
just a little crooked, would she have plastic surgery done to correct it
just because she finds it unattractive. Most people wouldn't. I feel for
the kid whose parents would.

Cleft lips don't count. It's a gross deformity and a lot of times involves
more than just appearances.

Now, there are kids who grow up to to want plastic surgery for a nose that
is highly unusual or ears that stick out. At least by that time, they have
a say.

Anyway, a foreskin is a normal part of the body. It is not a gross
deformity. If the child thinks it's ugly, then he may request surgery at
that time. Maybe the parent thinks it's ugly, but the kid thinks it's
alright. I don't know why it would matter if the parent thought it was ugly
anyway. I wonder what the grown men think of their moms judging their
pen*ses. Why would the son care what his mom thinks of his pen*s?

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:34:15 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:

I wonder what the grown men think of their moms judging their
pen*ses. Why would the son care what his mom thinks of his pen*s?

I don't know about grown men, but I can see how it would affect a
child's self esteem.

Example, Mom wanted the child circed. For whatever reason, it doesn't
happen. Child has a foreskin. Mom thinks that it is ugly and it
doesn't look right. She may make comments to that fact or she just
may treat that area of his body like it is wrong. Child hears the
comments or picks up on the fact that Mom thinks his genitals are
wrong. He then starts to believe that his penis is wrong and ugly.
His self esteem and his body image are affected.

Now clearly in my example, the mother would be wrong to do this to her
child. However, we all know that mothers are not perfect.

--
Daye
Momma to Jayan
"Boy" EDD 11 Jan 2004
See Jayan: http://jayan.topcities.com/